Lit STAR WARS REBELS (New Animated Series)

Discussion in 'Literature' started by JoinTheSchwarz, May 20, 2013.

  1. GrandAdmiralJello Moderator Communitatis Litterarumque

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    I'm not sure what being against murder has to do with fascism, but all right.

    You deny that Kanan literally lobbed a grenade into a person's hands? Or are you simply pro-murder? Please clarify.
    Last edited by GrandAdmiralJello, Aug 18, 2014
  2. Gamiel Force Ghost

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    star 5
    Let's not forget that they also had the power of Logray on their side.
  3. Gamiel Force Ghost

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    Oh you meant that clip, I though we were still talking about Art Attack.

    In that case I admit that he committed robbery and murder, or whatever the judicial term for killing somebody in a fight is, against the Empire.
  4. darkchrono Force Ghost

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    May 23, 2005
    star 4
    Yeah whatever the EU tried to come up with later on to try to make the Ewoks look tougher they were still just a bunch of teddy bears in the movie.
  5. Gamiel Force Ghost

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    So? The Empire is just a bunch of humans.
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  6. darkchrono Force Ghost

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    Who have the technology to blow up a planet and who run the known galaxy.
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  7. JediKnight75 Jedi Grand Master

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    Feb 15, 2011
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    Tarkin was a Grand Moff and he was serving along side "Lord" Vader. Thus his crimes were the Empire's crimes. Bullying shop keepers is also a relevant point, since they were operating on a guilty until lproven innocent point of view and were shutting down free speech. My Jedi sorcery will never be left at the door. And Order 66 is relevant because you must at least acknowledge that it was a clear example of religious persecution and any made up crimes could not be fairly be placed onto the children in the temple.

    You have a reasonable point about Count Vidian. I look forward to discussing him with you. It will also be better since I'll have a chance to read the book first and be prepared to present a pro-Jedi and a pro-Separatist argument against his actions.

    #JedifortheSepartistMovement
  8. GrandAdmiralJello Moderator Communitatis Litterarumque

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    Tarkin was a Grand Moff and he was serving along side "Lord" Vader. Thus his crimes were the Empire's crimes.


    Really? That's certainly a novel concept: respondeat superior in the criminal context? Do you Rebels even care about justice at all, or do you prefer one set of rules for your friends and another set to your enemies?

    Bullying shop keepers is also a relevant point, since they were operating on a guilty until lproven innocent point of view and were shutting down free speech.


    How do you imagine a person is to be charged and/or tried if he is not arrested first? It's called probable cause, and being unable to provide a valid license is not only probable, but prima facie evidence of being unlicensed. It is a strange universe indeed where you would hold a person, sight unseen, guilty for a crime he did not commit while at the same time deny the basic ability of law enforcement to detain someone in order to charge them.

    As far as speech goes, the individual was being arrested. If you're going to bring in terrestrial legal concepts into Star Wars (for some reason), then beware: a person can and will be held liable for words uttered to law enforcement officers during the course of an arrest. Note well that he was already being arrested for unlicensed fruit distribution, not for his words.

    And Order 66 is relevant because you must at least acknowledge that it was a clear example of religious persecution and any made up crimes could not be fairly be placed onto the children in the temple.


    I am not sure it falls under the rubric of "religious persecution" just because the victims share a religious affiliation. They were attacked as part of a military operation against an organization that had attempted to overthrow the lawfully elected government and establish a theocracy. Now, I am a mild individual. I would never countenance the death of children in any form, and I personally find this "Order 66" to be regrettable. But who do I blame? I blame the Jedi Council who made poor, innocent children accessories to their conspiracy and I blame them for placing children in harms' way in the first place. All the Empire should shed tears for those children and the death the Jedi visited upon them.
  9. DelRiego Force Ghost

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  10. Jabba-wocky Chosen One

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    How do you all feel about the portrayal of the character Sabine? When I was first introduced to the concept, it seemed like a novel, important part of the new Star Wars universe that could really become both likeable and relatable. Increasingly, though, it seems like they're determined to create something really awful. While merging art and military prowess is a time-honored concept--see, for instance, the death poems of the samurai--they made her use spray paint, the most decidedly low-life media available. Where she could've been serious and principled, the new trailer depicts someone who doesn't even seem to find the work of their own "revolution" meaningful beyond an evening of hijinks.

    I personally feel betrayed by the way this roll out has taken place. I wanted someone to cheer for and instead got a subversive. What about the rest of you?
    Last edited by Jabba-wocky, Aug 18, 2014
  11. anakinfansince1983 Chosen One

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    Mar 4, 2011
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    I had enough "serious and principled" with latter-season Tano.

    And spray paint doesn't bother me.

    Speaking as someone who found it hilarious that the stormtroopers got their asses kicked by Ewoks, I am having fun imagining the blue helmeted stormtroopers reporting back to Agent Mutton Chops or The Inquisitor--and hearing "I'm surrounded by idiots" in the voice of Scar from The Lion King.

    ...yeah yeah yeah, Jeremy Irons isn't voicing anything here, I know.
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  12. GrandAdmiralJello Moderator Communitatis Litterarumque

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    I would've told them not to wear white. White stains easily.
  13. DelRiego Force Ghost

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    I always expected something of the sort. Not because of having anything against the character type, but because it was too easy to go for the "unique rebel kickass grrrl" route instead of, say, create a deep character as described by Jabba Wocky
    Last edited by DelRiego, Aug 18, 2014
  14. Cynical_Ben Force Ghost

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    Aug 12, 2013
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    If you want someone more serious and principled, Hera Syndulla is right over there. Sabine is far more the reckless teenager spraypainting symbols and slogans on alley walls, or throwing snowballs at stormtroopers. If you expected someone using samurai death poems right off the bat from this show, from what the previews gave us, your expectations were a wee bit over-played.

    Also, "personally betrayed"? Because of your own expectations not panning out over a show that hasn't even started airing yet? You're personally betrayed because of what someone else created that isn't what you wanted? I pity the cooks at restaurants you frequent if that's all it takes for you to feel personally betrayed.

    I'll cheer for Sabine. I want her to have her fun, but I also want her to grow into a strong and expressive young woman who uses her personal expressions of art to combat the uniformity and conformism of the Empire. I hope that the show stays on the air long enough for her to have that journey, since she's clearly not going to have a spotlight on her until Ezra and Kanan (at the least) have their turn. I hope we learn more about her, get to know her backstory, see her relationship to the planet Mandalore, give her some adventures of her own that show her that being a rebel means more than just thumbing your nose at the men in white armor.
  15. CooperTFN TFN EU Staff Emeritus

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    Um.
    [IMG]
  16. HEDGESMFG Force Ghost

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    star 3
    I was originally going to complain about this short, but given that the 7 minute preview for Rebels had a shockingly high trooper death count... I'm not exactly offended that she 'didn't' kill them for once. At worst, it's inconsistent. At best, it shows they aren't outright killers as some here are arguing.

    Still taking a wait and see approach, but the show's somewhat improving in my eyes. I just hope it shakes off that slightly juvenile/amateurish feel a bit quicker than TCW did (by season 3, and even then only maybe the second half).
  17. JediKnight75 Jedi Grand Master

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    Feb 15, 2011
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    Wow! A great response! I may disagree with you, but I sure respect your skill in defending the Empire! I doubt I can offer any sort of adequate response. Still I will try.

    First a matter of clarification: I'm not a rebel if by that you mean a member of the Rebel Alliance. I am a part of the Separatist Holdouts; granted I support union between our to movements so my point is really irrelevant in the big picture.

    In the Death Star Vader and Tarkin are equally to blame. As Palpatine's second in command, Vader could have stopped Tarkin, but he didn't. If the "emperor" had any interest in justice, he would have disciplined his apprentice -- he was the only survivor after all. Instead, Vader's position was unchanged or even higher. Furthermore, Palpatine controls the Imperial economy, so he had to be aware and approving of the construction and purpose of the Death Star. After seeing how it was used, there was no apology or official statement condemning the actions of Tarkin, whose philosophy the "emperor" must have been aware of prior to giving him such a high rank. The only Imperial response to the Death Star, was building a second one, larger and more powerful than the first. This one was commanded by Palpatine himself. In looking at the details, it is obvious that Palpatine approved of the Death Star and its purpose. I doubt he had any problem with the destruction of Alderaan.

    I do not believe there was probable cause in the issue of the shopkeeper. They had no reason to suspect him from not having a license. Although, their treatment of him is the bigger issue. In confiscating his merchandise, they mocked him and ate his food. This shows that theywent beyond enforcing the law and were acting as bullies unfit for their rank. Also, his ultimate arrest was clearly do to him blaming the Empire for harming the galaxy -- prior to that point he was only being questioned, he wasn't actually arrested. Since he wasn't actually advocating revolt, his words cannot be considered held against him. He was only expressing his dissatisfaction with the government, as was his right. If he was telling people to take up arms against the Empire, then his arrest would have been just.

    I don't think we can accuse the whole Jedi Order, by the actions of four masters -- while I agree with what they did, it was illegal, but so were the actions of Palpatine. A more proper response would have been to lock down the Temple and prevent anyone from leaving. That would have allowed for the culpability of the rest of the Order to be determined. Palpatine had them far outnumbered and could have successfully maintained such an operation. Then we have the Jedi in the field, most of them who would have had no way of knowing what Master Windu had done or planned -- if this is some conspiracy as you believe. Killing these Jedi was in no way reasonable. If you look at Palpatine's actions it is clear that Order 66 was the culmination of a plot against the Jedi and not an attempt to maintain justice. But now on to the real issue of killing the children: the Clone Troopers had overrun the temple. The children stood no chance against them. They could have easily been arrested and detained; they could have even been taught about why the order took place. Those kids could have easily been turned into loyal Imperials. There were many more options that could have been taken with these kids; killing was unnecessary. Why were they killed then? Because the Empire was not interested in justice, how to best solve the problem of a "Jedi revolt" weren't considered. Instead the agenda was to kill anyone, with any Jedi knowledge because Palpatine didn't want anyone alive who could possibly stand in the way of his power. Whether or not they'd actually oppose him was irrelevant.
  18. GrandAdmiralJello Moderator Communitatis Litterarumque

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    This post is precisely why I goaded him into posting his argument. He complained to me that they were portraying her as a subversive, and I said "go tell the people in Lit that."

    Mission accomplished.
  19. seeker_two Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jan 3, 2003
    star 3
    I liked the Sabine clip. She reminds me a lot of Parker (the thief) from LEVERAGE.

    .....in fact, this whole show so far reminds me of LEVERAGE. Is Dave Filoni ripping off TNT?.....

    Sent from my HTC One using Tapatalk
  20. Jabba-wocky Chosen One

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    May 4, 2003
    star 8
    This whole thing just makes me sick. Are you guys trying to tell me there will basically be no good guys in this show at all?
  21. GrandAdmiralJello Moderator Communitatis Litterarumque

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    They're called the Galactic Empire.
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  22. JediKnight75 Jedi Grand Master

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    Feb 15, 2011
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    Well the Rebels are technically supposed to be the good guys, but that doesn't always mean their actions will be good. Rebellions attract both good and bad people. Also, hopefully how the Empire will have good people working for it -- just because they are the bad guys, doesn't mean good people won't be attracted to it.

    From what we know of the show, Herra will be a good person. I think Kanan will be, mostly (he was kind of ruthless in the seven minute clip. I also, don't think Sabine will be bad. I think she's just fighting a war and may combine that with some teenage tendencies. I don't think that's a negative thing; honestly it may be natural for someone to do that. Also, this short doesn't really tell us anything about her character.
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  23. GrandAdmiralJello Moderator Communitatis Litterarumque

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    Wow! A great response! I may disagree with you, but I sure respect your skill in defending the Empire! I doubt I can offer any sort of adequate response. Still I will try.


    Your courtesy does you credit, and redounds to your benefit more than winning an argument good. I thank you for your kind words.

    First a matter of clarification: I'm not a rebel if by that you mean a member of the Rebel Alliance. I am a part of the Separatist Holdouts; granted I support union between our to movements so my point is really irrelevant in the big picture.


    Still, the distinction is so noted. I am unclear whether it is the greater slur to be a dirty Seppie or Rebel scum, but in either case politeness demands we observe the difference.

    In the Death Star Vader and Tarkin are equally to blame. As Palpatine's second in command, Vader could have stopped Tarkin, but he didn't. If the "emperor" had any interest in justice, he would have disciplined his apprentice -- he was the only survivor after all. Instead, Vader's position was unchanged or even higher. Furthermore, Palpatine controls the Imperial economy, so he had to be aware and approving of the construction and purpose of the Death Star. After seeing how it was used, there was no apology or official statement condemning the actions of Tarkin, whose philosophy the "emperor" must have been aware of prior to giving him such a high rank. The only Imperial response to the Death Star, was building a second one, larger and more powerful than the first. This one was commanded by Palpatine himself. In looking at the details, it is obvious that Palpatine approved of the Death Star and its purpose. I doubt he had any problem with the destruction of Alderaan.



    Indeed, we could use subsequent actions in order to determine the Emperor's position on events -- but only if we look at the entire picture. We're not privy to the details of what transpired afterwards, nor whether there were any attempts by Lord Vader to circumvent Tarkin's move. There are rumors, legends even, that Lord Vader attempted to stop Tarkin because His Majesty would not have approved, but that Tarkin ignored Lord Vader's wishes. Such renegade acts cannot be imputed to the Emperor -- and indeed, your note that the Emperor personally commanded the second Death Star only confirms my point: the Emperor would never again trust such power on underlings who could defy orders and commit terrible atrocities.

    We know that the Emperor approved of the Death Star -- it could not have been created without his permission -- but creating a thing and agreeing with every single conceivable misuse is different. Do you suppose the fellow who orders a datapad for a classroom intends for a murder to bludgeon everyone with it? Surely not.

    do not believe there was probable cause in the issue of the shopkeeper. They had no reason to suspect him from not having a license. Although, their treatment of him is the bigger issue. In confiscating his merchandise, they mocked him and ate his food. This shows that theywent beyond enforcing the law and were acting as bullies unfit for their rank. Also, his ultimate arrest was clearly do to him blaming the Empire for harming the galaxy -- prior to that point he was only being questioned, he wasn't actually arrested. Since he wasn't actually advocating revolt, his words cannot be considered held against him. He was only expressing his dissatisfaction with the government, as was his right. If he was telling people to take up arms against the Empire, then his arrest would have been just.



    We're not privy to the reasons why the stormtroopers were there. Perhaps they obtained a tip, perhaps they had a warrant, or perhaps this was part of a routine customs patrol? We cannot say -- and so in absence of any real knowledge, I don't think we can draw any inferences in either direction. If we are to assume, should we not assume that matters were routine? It seems a stretch to assume villainy on the part of the law enforcement -- truly, are Imperial stormtroopers so hard up on people available to "bully" that they must terrorize shopkeepers?

    And yes, of course they ate his food. Who knows how many countless individuals could have been exposed to potentially hazardous and tainted food from an unlicensed fruit vendor? The Imperial officer was nobly putting his life on the line in order to determine whether or not there was a public health hazard, and whether the citizenry ought to be warned so that they could obtain medical assistance. Yet you take his heroic gesture and you malign him so? What small reward for such noble self-sacrifice! How tawdry the ingratitude.
    Last edited by GrandAdmiralJello, Aug 18, 2014
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  24. CooperTFN TFN EU Staff Emeritus

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    ...you're welcome?
  25. GrandAdmiralJello Moderator Communitatis Litterarumque

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    sigh. You clearly don't understand this sport.
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