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  1. In Memory of LAJ_FETT: Please share your remembrances and condolences HERE

ST Star Wars: The Force Awakens...reviews

Discussion in 'Sequel Trilogy' started by w4tkn, Nov 30, 2015.

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  1. Strongbow

    Strongbow Force Ghost star 5

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    Nov 6, 2014
    Not in my experience. It's easily the one I've watched the most now, with the exception of ANH and ESB. Lots and lots of my Star Wars friends have always watched it many times. I'm not saying that you don't experience that, or that other people don't, but I'd challenge your implication that it is common. I just haven't seen that phenomenon at all. In fact, rather the opposite. Maybe the type of fans we hang out with makes the difference?
     
  2. redxavier

    redxavier Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    Jan 23, 2003
    I'd say TFA has immense rewatchability value as well. The film has such a relentless pace that there are few dull moments. In contrast, as much as I love ANH and ESB, there are large chunks of both those films where I don't mind wondering off into another room to do something else and coming back later. Of course, if you go looking for complaints you'll find them, but you can do that with literally every film ever made.

    In less than a week, we'll have another SW film and it will be very interesting to see the reactions.
     
  3. Collin Tongue

    Collin Tongue Jedi Knight star 2

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    Jan 8, 2016

    Do you enjoy rewatching TFA more than ESB or ANH?
     
  4. dick rodgers

    dick rodgers Jedi Master star 4

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    Feb 23, 2016
    it's sure possible. i consider myself a cinefile so ill admit my expectations are high. i just didnt get the characters moments i got in ANH or ESB. characterization was so limited in TFA imo and the film never really slowed down to let you breath until the cantina scene, in which so many stupid things happened, such as bringing the most wanted droid into a cantina that is frequented by people and rogues from all over the galaxy and such, that it was hard for me to even get into any character beats my first couple of viewings as i was questioning the logic of such circumstances. but ya.
     
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  5. Collin Tongue

    Collin Tongue Jedi Knight star 2

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    Jan 8, 2016
    TFA never slows down because there isn't a well structured plot with well defined character arcs, it's one action set piece and on to the next, sort of like a ride. Almost like Star Tours, not literally, but you get what I mean. Look at how flashy and amazing this is! The script had so many jokes/one liners/fan service that it betrayed the depth of the story and characters. Dialogue is a function of character, it either reveals something about the character, or moves the story forward. One liners/cheezy jokes don't fit into this. The acting/effects/editing were all amazing, which helps its cause in coming off great. The story/dialogue/script however were sorely lacking, imho. Also I found the music to be uninspiring even compared to the prequels, I felt it was the weakest soundtrack, and I'm a huge John Williams fan. Editing/acting/special effects/costume A+ Script/dialogue/story not so much.
     
  6. dick rodgers

    dick rodgers Jedi Master star 4

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    Feb 23, 2016
    100% agree.
     
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  7. Artoo-Dion

    Artoo-Dion Manager Emeritus star 6 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

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    Jun 9, 2009
    Character arcs are clear and well-defined. Rey lets go of the fears that trap her on Jakku. Finn finds his courage and bravery. Han stops running from his (perceived) failures as a father and comes to his son with love and compassion.

    These are all right there in the film.
     
  8. Strongbow

    Strongbow Force Ghost star 5

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    Nov 6, 2014

    Ya didn;t ask me, but I will answer: I can't really say yet. I'm currently rewatching TFA more than those films, but it is fairly new still. I agree with redxavier that in both ANH and ESB, there are moments that I'd prefer to just get past now, but largely because I've seen them both ad infinitum. There may be bits in TFA that feel that way to me eventually. I'll never NOT enjoy watching ANH or ESB, but right now, TFA is my go to movie when I'm in the mood for Star Wars. We'll see how it settle out in another year or so.
     
  9. Collin Tongue

    Collin Tongue Jedi Knight star 2

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    Jan 8, 2016
    I respectfully disagree that they are well defined or clear. Finn, brainwashed and trained from childhood to be a killing machine, develops a conscience and doesn't want to commit murder. Then, his best friend(in the books that's the stormtrooper that dies) is murdered in front of him and he decides the best way to deal with that is to help the person who killed him. He also immediately loses that moral issue of killing people and starts murdering his former colleagues willy nilly by blasting away imperials throughout the rest of the movie. He's also incredibly charming and boy next door, weird for a brainwashed killing machine with PTSD. That isn't a well defined character, for me anyway. I love the idea of a Stormtrooper defecting and finding himself, I just don't think this movie executed that very well. I'm not saying there aren't character arcs, I just don't think they are that good. Also, why does a sith apprentice trained by Luke Skywalker, who can hold blaster bolts midair and sense them incoming, freeze a person's an entire body, and can mind extract thoughts, struggle to defeat a janitor? Finn, with no lightsaber training, gives him a huge run for his money, even scoring a hit(Also I've never seen someone get hit with a lightsaber so many times and not die, Kylo is like the Star Wars version of 50 Cent. Again, a force trained sith under the tutelage of Snoke and Skywalker, barely scrapes by Finn but apparently destroyed the entire academy and vanquished Luke into hiding? He could have easily just froze Finn at the start of the fight and chopped him in half. It makes no sense. That's just Finn, there are issues with all of them. I wrote a review for StereoEmbersMagazine, I can link it if you want to see in detail what issues I have with Rey and the rest of the cast/characters. My guess is you won't want to read it, and that's ok I totally get that and respect that. But if you do, I'll link it for you. May the force be with us all, my fellow SW friend. :)
     
  10. Strongbow

    Strongbow Force Ghost star 5

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    Nov 6, 2014

    And I'll respectfully disagree. I feel the characters are very well drawn for the first act of a three act story, at least as good (and better, IMO) than Episode IV. I read your review, and while I certainly respect your right to an opinion, I could not disagree more with it. I won't address your assertions point by point, but I think you make a great many assumptions that are not necessarily supported by the movie (at least not as I "read" it). For example, I think you miss the point about Finn. It's not that he has some sort high moral stand against killing in general, it's that he does not want to kill for the First Order. He has seen what they represent, both in the immense power of SKB, and their willingness to kill civilians, even after they've been captured. I'm not trying to start an argument about it with you, just pointing out that your position is based assumptions not everyone shares (and which I think are entirely wrong-headed).

    Cheers!
     
  11. Collin Tongue

    Collin Tongue Jedi Knight star 2

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    Jan 8, 2016


    You say you respectfully disagree with me but tell me I'm making assumptions and that they're wrong headed. Opinions are just that, opinions. You have yours, I have mine. We agree to disagree, but I'm not going to call you wrong headed and tell you you're making poorly made assumptions simply because you take up a different position than mine.Thank you for reading my review, I appreciate you being open minded and taking a peek at it, even if you don't agree with the points made, most people simply attack me for having a differing view than theirs when they read it, so thank you for not doing that. Cheers to you too, and happy holidays!
     
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  12. Artoo-Dion

    Artoo-Dion Manager Emeritus star 6 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

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    Jun 9, 2009
    You can respectfully disagree with someone's opinion while presenting a critical analysis of it. Opinions should not be exempt from scrutiny.
     
  13. Strongbow

    Strongbow Force Ghost star 5

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    Nov 6, 2014
    Let's be clear, the fact that I think you're dead wrong does not mean I don't respect your right to think that way. Based on your review, I assume you think I'm wrong too. That's okay. I understand that opinions are perspective-based. Have a great one!
     
  14. Collin Tongue

    Collin Tongue Jedi Knight star 2

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    Jan 8, 2016
    Again, all you had to say was that you respectfully disagree with me. However you then went on to explain and insinuate why my opinion was less valid than yours due to it being from assumptions that were "wrong headed". I do disagree with you about the script of TFA being great, but that doesn't mean I think your opinions are any less valid than mine and I don't think they're wrong headed. They're 100% valid. Only a sith deals in absolutes, after all. I don't find your opinion to be based off assumptions. It's the same reason why I wouldn't call someone wrong headed because they preferred ROTJ to ESB, that wouldn't be right. Do I think ESB is better as a film? Sure. Does that give me the right to start telling other fans they are wrong headed and making assumptions because they think ROTJ is better? IMHO, it doesn't. I'm not going to attempt to denigrate or mitigate your take on things because they don't line up with my take on things. Doing that would be polarizing and insulting to you. Doing that kind of stuff is why there is such a lack of constructive dialogue in the world today. Just look at the Democrats and Republicans if you don't believe me. Have a great one too, and here's to Rogue One being a wonderful film!
     
  15. Strongbow

    Strongbow Force Ghost star 5

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    Nov 6, 2014

    The fact that I respect peoples' right to have an opinion does not mean that I think they are all equally valid. I don't (I can elaborate more on this, but now is perhaps not the time). And it is very important that we make a distinction between simple preference, and reasoned positions. Both can be perspective based, but preference is purely a matter of taste, while reasoned positions are arguments based on observations of "fact" (which can be perspective-based) and interpretations of those "facts." So, me saying I think TFA is better than ROTJ is statement of preference. But in the Finn example, you made some observations about who you think Finn is, and what his actions mean. I have a fundamental disagreement with you in that I think your basic assumptions are flawed and, therefore, your extrapolations and interpretations also flawed. I fully expect you would feel the same about my positions. However, I am not so arrogant to believe that I am somehow OBJECTIVELY correct and anyone who disagrees with me OBJECTIVELY wrong. It is shorthand for me saying, "I believe my interpretation is correct" rather a definitive declaration of absolute rightness (is that a word?). I do acknowledge perspective in there, as well as personal taste.
     
  16. Collin Tongue

    Collin Tongue Jedi Knight star 2

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    Jan 8, 2016



    "The fact that I respect peoples' right to have an opinion does not mean that I think they are all equally valid." -Strongbow-

    So in this instance, where TFA's script is concerned, my opinion is not as valid as yours? I'm just going off your words, I'm trying to understand, genuinely. It sounds like you're saying I'm allowed to have my opinion just as much as you are, but your opinion is more valid than mine, at least in this particular instance?
     
  17. CEB

    CEB Force Ghost star 5

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    Dec 3, 2014
    Don't take it personally as if you're outraged that someone can consider an opinion less valid: making distinctions based on validity of opinions is a perfectly natural thing to do, and if you want your opinion to be considered valid, it's up to you to put the leg work in to do so.

    Take a look at Qui-Riv-Brid as a good example; I very often disagree with him, but he goes to great lengths to show reasoningand justification, to the extent that nobody could say he has made a casual assumption.

    While you have used the waaaaay discredited (to the extent that most people will roll their eyes when they read it) idea of Finn being a "janitor", which immediately shows that you aren't basing your opinion on solid foundations, but on a deliberate attempt to make the most negative possible interpretation about a character. I'd recommend you drop that angle too, as it's been made clear on here that using the term janitor to describe Finn is generally done to inflame tensions, not discuss constructively.

    For example; you describe Finn as a "pacifist"; there is nothing in the film to suggest he is a pacifist. He simply refuses to kill unarmed, captive prisoners. If you can't back up the idea that Finn is a pacifist,nobody needs to consider your opinion as valid as that of someone who knows what pacifist means, and concludes that Finn is not a pacifist.
     
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  18. moreorless12

    moreorless12 Jedi Master star 4

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    Jan 4, 2016
    I never quite understood the negative issue with "janitor", maybe its been linked to racist posting(although really by the standards of some arguments in defence of Rey within TFA I think Finn could be used to criticize TFA itself as racist, not that I'd agree with that myself)I'm unaware of but to me its very much inline with the film that clearly looks sells Finn's role on SKB as a rather menial and unimportant one, hence Han's reaction to it. Exactly what sanitation might involve to me seems rather unimportant in the way the reveal is presented.

    I wouldn't call Finn a "pacifist" as that's more a philosophy that would need to be presented in-depth but still I think the inconsistency in his character is rather clear. At the start of the film he's clearly deeply upset at being asked to kill the villagers yet he doesn't just blast a load of his ex colleagues but seems to actively enjoy it. That situation for me is very different from say Finn having to kill some FO troops to save someone else or when directly being attacked and having to push himself to do it.

    I do think it links into Collin's general point though that TFA isn't a film that is primarily interested in creating a character focused story in an immersive world the way the OT was. Its focus is I think pretty clearly to be an entertaining action/humour/nostalgia rollercoaster akin to Abrams Trek, it carries this off reasonably well but for me very clearly at the cost of the above strengths that the OT had. In terms of credibility as well I'd say Collin's review is much better than most offering a very high degree of substance with its criticism rather than merely generalising or appealing to authority.
     
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  19. CEB

    CEB Force Ghost star 5

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    Dec 3, 2014
    It was kind of linked to racist posting, but more so linked to plain bashing; Finn quite simply *was not* a janitor, and the constant (for a time) casual assertion that he was, often by people banging the "they made the black guy an incompetent janitor clown"; anyone who wants to be taken seriously shouldn't be using the term - we even had military personnel posting here saying that in the military, of course younger/more junior staff work sanitation, and that the casual denigration of what is actually part of the job, is a bit off.

    Add to that that people using "janitor" do so dismissively, while y'know, janitor *is* a job and nothing to be ashamed of, and basically it just ends up that anyone calling Finn a janitor doesn't cover themselves in glory, and ends up inflamingarguments
     
  20. EHT

    EHT Manager Emeritus star 7 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

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    Sep 13, 2007
    ^ That.
     
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  21. moreorless12

    moreorless12 Jedi Master star 4

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    Jan 4, 2016
    If it was "haha the black guys a janitor" kind of posting I can definitely understand but really it seems quite hypocritical to me to ban a description of a character because people were using it to call TFA racist when many posters such as yourself have no problem calling other people sexist in defence of the film.

    Again for me I don't really see the difference between dismissive use of janitor and Hans "Sanitation?" line that is dripping with contempt.
     
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  22. CEB

    CEB Force Ghost star 5

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    Dec 3, 2014
    It's not hypocritical in any way at all if you allow for the possibility that I may have reached a different conclusion about different things; I did believe, and stand by, that some criticism of Rey was sexist. I do believe that some criticisms of Finn have validity (though have perhaps been overstated)

    But I also think that some of the people who regularly complain about Finn from a representation point of view have done these steps:

    1: deliberately misinterpret Finn's line about having been assigned to sanitation on SKB as him being a "janitor" (rather than as a routine part of any young military career)
    2: casually assert that being a janitor is a Bad Thing to be
    3: conclude that Finn has been written in a racially offensive way due to a debateable point number two, and a completely wrong interpretation of point 2

    Han's sanitation exasperation wasn't about contempt for someone on cleaning duty; it was sheer anger that Finn had blagged his way onto the trip seemingly without useful military intelligence
     
  23. Collin Tongue

    Collin Tongue Jedi Knight star 2

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    Jan 8, 2016
    Uhhh.....I said he was a janitor cause he was a janitor? The film itself makes a joke out of him being a janitor! Han gets to have a couple of moments with him outside the base joking about how "thats not how the force works!" and is astounded to hear that Finn was stationed in sanitation. Because TFA loves making jokes all the time. If you didn't want people to comment on him being a janitor, maybe you should complain to JJ about forcefully writing in jokes about how Finn is stationed in sanitation to get a few cheap laughs out of Han's reaction to said news. And trust me those lines were so Han could stuff in a joke, his line was and I quote "Sanitation?!" and he said it incredulously. Clearly not a good thing(at least according to Han) where breaking into Death Star's and being an elite Imperial badass are concerned.

    Even if he was the best stormtrooper in the galaxy though, which he isn't, Kylo still struggles against him even though Finn has zero training with a lightsaber and no force experience whatsoever. Kylo was trained by Luke(probably from a young age too) Skywalker at his academy and later gets even more training under whoever the F Snoke is. Kylo even struggling against Finn, as a trained jedi/sith, is laughable. Getting hit by him is even more hilarious. Luke would have been beheaded if he fought Kylo in ANH, he didn't know diddly squat. And neither did Finn yet.

    I'm stoked for Rogue One, I think it's going to be great and I can't wait to see Vader!
     
  24. moreorless12

    moreorless12 Jedi Master star 4

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    Jan 4, 2016
    Again personally I don't hold the view that Finn is racially offence BUT my point is that I think the film very clearly does look to play his sanitation position as something of a joke, again just listen to Han's reaction when told, up against that the idea that TFA was somehow looking to portray realistic military life for me very clearly rings false.

    No being a janitor shouldn't be a contemptuous job but sadly our neoliberal race to the bottom means that a lot of the time it is as the pay/benefits on offer are very poor, ultimately this kind of thing needs to be backed up my money or else its just hot air.
     
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  25. CEB

    CEB Force Ghost star 5

    Registered:
    Dec 3, 2014
    Well yeah, the line about sanitation is played as a kind of moment of levity. But people are arguing all sorts of contrasting things; elsewhere people are saying "this film is NOT a realistic depiction of military protocol" , while elsewhere it's too much military protocol.
    Fact is, like with anything tonally similar to Star Wars, it uses realism or believable concepts when needed, and fudges when needed, too.

    Again - the joke isn't "lol Finn mopped floors"; it's more an awkward laugh as we relate to both Finn and Han; Finn having blagged his way onto the mission, Han being annoyed that Finn doesn't have detailed knowledge of military stuff on SKB.

    The only reason sanitation was chosen was because it was a plausible role he might have had, but one that immediately tells the audience he didn't have high level clearance.
     
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