State of the Drafts (all draft participants, please read and discuss)

Bassil and I have been talking lately about what's going on with the drafts. You guys have probably seen it too - lots more fighting than there used to be. Over the past several months, there's been a serious increase. We've had to do a lot of editing, and there's been some bad feeling.

We like you guys, and we like the drafts. We really hate the bad feelings that have been around lately. We've also had a lot of PMs. And we're really glad you guys are coming to us with issues, but we'd rather not have the issues in the first place.

So we'd like to take this opportunity to work things out. Talk with each other and with us. No blaming or baiting, obviously, but we want to get beyond the weekly fights and go back to having fun with the drafts. What can everyone do to make that happen?

 

My opinion only....

~Some players seem to have a large chip on their shoulers, and agressively set their sights on established players...blaming them for almost everything that they don't agree with.

~When debating issues there is a tendency to take shots at the person you are debating with rather than sticking to the argument.

~Some people seem to like to argue about everything, and be accusitory (as in suggesting someone is lying or conspiring against you) or overly agressive when doing so.

~There are GM's who are competitive, which is fine to a point, but some take it too far and go off the deep end when others disagree with them or a vote goes against them.

Those are just my thoughts.

Not saying I am innocent of any of this...I have had my moments...especially in the competative department, but I try to not accuse others of lying or take personal shots at people. It does however seem like some people react very poorly when others disagree, which seems to be happening more and more lately....specifically in the last draft and now the mini. It doesn't seem to be an issue in the Anime, Starfighter, Movie and TV, Mythology. Seems like it is more of a Comics issue to me.

Personally, it seems like for the most part this issue could be dealt with on a personal level instead of making it a group issue. My feeling is that much of our problem is not a group issue. Most of us have been drafting together for a looong time and have had very minor issues over the 5 or so years of playing, only recently have things seemingly escalated to the point of ridiculous.

 

Okay, guys, what I'd like everyone to do is to write out a letter that you will read to the person who has wronged you. In essence, this is to document your feeling and your hurts. Often times, the people who are hurting us through their actions and their words don't even realize that they're doing so. This is an illness. You have to remember that. It's an illness. So what we're not going to do is use accusatory words. We're not going to lecture or condemn. This is not about that. It's about getting them help. It's about letting them know that we still care about them, regardless of their actions.

For example:

"Shurron, when you waxed the floor with my ass in our last draft matchup, I did not agree with some of the decisions that were made over the course of that shellacking. That hurt my feelings. It made me feel like less of a man."

That's what we're going for here. Not something like this:

"Shurron, you ******* *******! I ******* want you to **** ******* and ********** **** and stuff! You want to be a big cop in a small town? **** off up the model village!"

No, nothing like that.

No!

Bad!

 

I'm pretty sure we're all adults here. People argue. Some people don't like each other. Some people vent. I don't think this is a huge problem. If you have an issue with somebody go to them. This isn't kindergarten.

 

I'm in agreement with Despised1 on this one: most of us have been drafting together for years now with relatively few serious incidents. I'm seeing more personal conflicts being at play here than a sudden breakdown in the drafting community itself.

 

And yet, it is becoming a problem. And yes, we are aware that it's an individual thing on some levels, and that parts of the drafting community have absolutely nothing to do with it. Nonetheless, we're getting PMs and having to go in and edit people every week now. And from comments in the threads, it seems like some of you are finding it over the top as well. So we'd like to try to work things out and go back to the occasional minor spats.

Because we have heard from people who would rather leave that participate in the atmosphere of constant bickering. And we'd rather that everyone stay and work things out than leave and/or keep fighting and get banned.

 

Look at who is in the middle of each and every major conflict we have had lately (both in the last draft and the current mini), there is one person in common for every one of them. The constant challenging of rules and norms in an overly agressive fashion, the constant chest thumping, the constant insulting and baiting...that is all new to the draft and you can look back and pretty much see exactly where it started.

Do I fire back and times and put myself in the wrong? Hell yeah I do, it gets old dealing with that and is it a shocker to anyone that when a person is constantly pushing someones buttons that the person would get annoyed by it?

I see this as an individual problem, not a group issue. Look at the mini draft, we have had 3 (I think) blow ups now...over really nothing. Hell, he is in the midst of starting another one in the mini-draft right now.

Personally, if I can be blunt, seems like Kalar is looking for reasons to argue....so far every call I have made in that draft is an issue to him. Not to anyone else, just him. So why do we deal with it on a group level?

 

Because we've seen it from multiple people, and we're editing multiple people.

 

And in all the instances you had to edit multiple people, who was the center of the conflict/argument? All of those I recall as of late involved one person in particular and was initiated via throwing personal insults...or by constant arguing with people.

Go look at the Mini-Draft now...edited. Starting arguments over really nothing more than his own misunderstanding, throwing in an insult at the same time for good measure. Really it seems like it is really nothing more than a basic trolling/baiting issue, and usually those issues are dealt with on an individual level.

You got my opinion on the issue, what you do with it is up to you really.

 

I'll admit I'm at fault. I apologize. I'm sorry. I'm a fierce competitor though. We all have been guilty of saying snide comments, and pushing the boundaries of what is appropriate. Well not all, Loyal Imp, you're a very calm nice guy, and I respect you for it. There are many others too, and thanks for tolerating us more annoying ones. I will, not try, but will be less caustic on the boards, and will lower my edits to none rapidly. I hope that this doesn't kill the spirit of the boards as well. Durron has a talent for words, and to date I appreciate his humor, and hopes he continues the way he is, honestly. So, lets all take a step back, breathe, and move on in the way this was intended by NYCG and BaSSiL.

 

I...I'm not going to even get involved with this.

I will, however, quote Gandhi:

"If I had no sense of humor, I would long ago have committed suicide."

Wait, no. This:

"We should meet abuse by forbearance. Human nature is so constituted that if we take absolutely no notice of anger or abuse, the person indulging in it will soon weary of it and stop."

You cannot blame conflict on a single party. Next time, before you make a post, why not look in the mirror first, and ask yourself if what you are about to say is what you would like to hear from someone else.

There is not going to be an end to arguments and editing if people cannot take responsibility for what they themselves are saying. You're either fueling a fire or you are working to douse it. I don't really think I need to remind anyone that this is not the first time a draft has had issues.

 

EF... your words moved me... I think I'm tearing up inside. Hold on one moment...

 

Yeah, wondering whether or not this is even worth it... But I started typing, may as well continue.

Um... Firstoff, "The State of the Drafts." Hilarious. I want a clipboard and a mic.

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Alright. Now it's time for The Yak to speak on this.

Firstoff, yeah obviously it mostly centers around one guy. Great. But honestly, how often does one guy voice something others aren't thinking?

Now, to be fair, it is different coming from a draft in which pretty much everyone knows each other and judges are a phone call away to a draft where that's not the case. Because I get more flak for a differing sports opinion than has been thrown out this whole year. "Yak you're an idiot! You don't know what you're talking about, and you only like him cause he's black, you racist pig!"

Now, of course being that I'm being called a racist pig by one of my friends, it's different from being insulted by someone you don't know. And of course, stuff gets heated in the moment and then it subsides. And there's no real subsiding here, largely because there aren't actual friendships.

I'd love to say how I really feel about some stuff here, and I haven't because I'd rather just do the drafts than get into arguments that I don't think will solve anything.

Kalar has a problem with the judging. At least a few matches. Yeah, I think he has a point. Not that it hasn't gotten better, because there have been some completely EGREGIOUS calls in the past. It's gotten better. But there are still calls that I would say are just bad. But there's nothing really to be done about that, so unless I see something truly atrocious, I just let it go. That, and I already won a championship, though it could be argued that I didn't completely earn it. My drive to win is a bit down right now, I ain't gettin paid for this.

Um let's see. Kalar says there's some favorable treatment, and we all know the main person he's talking about, and it's Durron. I think I'm already on record as agreeing, and I'm not alone in that. Now, am I saying there's INTENTIONAL favorable treatment? No. I think I previously likened it to Kobe Bryant getting star calls. It's not like he's not a beast. Just the mythos outgrows the man, and then they look better than they really are, no matter how good they are. I assume I can expound on this because that's what this thread seems to be for.

Why have I not brought it up before? Again, nothing's gonna be done about it. What even can be done about it? Should Durron stop arguing? Course not. Can people change their mindsets? Possibly, but it's hard and unlikely and then you have to worry about something else, which I already worry about over in Animated: Am I trying so hard not to favor Durron (there are others but he's the best and most used example) that I shortchange him? I don't want to do that either (okay I only thought that a couple times, but still that possibility exists). So what's to be done? Who knows. So there never seemed a point to me in bringing it up. I've got examples, but again what's to be done?

Rules... Yeah, need more concrete rules. That's improved as well, but there are alot of things that have just been assumed, because most people in these drafts have been in them before and generally know what's what. Kalar obviously didn't have that, and it has led to some mishaps. Just something to continue to improve on.

Ah yes, so back to the original problem, the personal attacks and other things like that. Personally, you can tell me I'm full of crap, and that's fine, I don't care. In fact I'd rather hear that, as long as you tell me exactly what you think I'm saying that's crap. But that's because I was picked on for years as a child and my friends make fun of me now and call me a racist pig, Heels. And forget you by the way, Tarvaris is STILL gonna be a starting QB in this league and McNabb is STILL a beast. And Dustin Byfuglien rocks too!! PK SUBBAN OWNS YOU!!!!

Sorry, sidetracked. [image=http://www.oes

 

First off I am gonna say that I agree with EF here 100% totally. If he was serious or not I don't know but he is right. We are all adults here. Why everyone gets all but hurt and has to cry about this stuff is ridiculous. I don't know who PMs the mods about what is going on as if it is something so serious that someone will kill themselves in real life (that is just the vibe I get over how big of a deal this has become) but again RIDICULOUS.

And B. I don't really understand what is going on here exactly? I get that the boards them selves have rules and that mods have different ideas and moderating styles but this is nothing. I have seen worse baiting, flaming and posts going completely unedited in every forum I frequent on these boards. Is the problem really this big or are the mods just making it seem worse? I think it has a lot to do with the mods personally, and nothing against any of you. NYC I see you editing all these posts... and I wonder why? I read the originals and I don't really see any violations of the rules in what I saw was edited out. Was it just because you have asked them to stop several times or what? I understand you want to keep disagreements and fights to a bare minimum but it seems like to me YOU just want things to be all happy rainbows, puppies kitties and candy in here. Then when it isn't and someone makes a snide remark or insights a bit of controversy you may cry yourself to sleep that night (again I mean this with no disrespect) So I gotta ask, what's up with that? Is it really that big of a problem? Or is this a preemptive strike to keep it from getting to be too big? Now BaSSiL is involved with the draft we are undoubtedly discussing here and I barely see him weigh in or edit anything, maybe two or three times? So who is crying about this?

I get that Kalar has come in here and stirred things around and that is AWESOME if you ask me. I personally don't think he has done enough to elicit this much of a reaction though, but that must be why I am not a mod then. I agree with a lot of what he says, maybe not so much with how he does it, but I do agree often. All of you know I have been one of the only people calling it like I see it, not being blinded by manlove for the player like a lot of people here have. If you are unsure which category you fall into, go back and read some of the old drafts you'll get a feeling for what I a talking about after a few pages of matches. I have been against favoritism ever since I started drafting here, and I am not gonna lie it is nice to have someone else crying foul about somethings around here. I can understand if Durron was so upset by this he stopped drafting, and I don't think anyone wants that, but I can pretty much say without a doubt that is not the case AND he is not the one complaining to the mods about this. Again I don't understand why everyone is so butt hurt here? Are people leaving the drafts because they can;t stand to see people disagree...this is the internet, it is what it was made for. Get over it. It was never as serious of an issue as it has been made into now.

For those still unconvinced please see the below form. Fill it out and send it to my email, you will find my information in my profile, thanks for your time and understanding!

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Please read... I don't want to see any TLDR mess:

Honestly, I dish out more verbal abuse than most here. I can surely take it. My biggest problem since we are airing things out is the way they are handled. EF, you did a great job as a commissioner. We griped, argued, kicked, screamed, got drunk... ohh wait that was just me... anyway, and you handled it fair, listened to all parties, and made reasonable arguments that made me say "well damn, the old girl's right..." more times than I would like to admit. Durron is pretty much the poster boy for saying what he wants, but he does it in such clever and creative ways no one says anything. I'm... well... not so graceful. If Durron, with words, is a Hanzo sword (clever quick and so smooth you're cut in half before you can finishing thinking "boy that's a beautiful sword, I hope he won't cut me with it) I'm more of a double sided battle hammer.
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But, at the end of the day, I don't hold grudges and move on. I made EF's life hell, but I still think we're cool, we IM from time to time, no biggies. But D1, the only person who hasn't admitted to any fault, and also the main finger pointer, clearly is about to explode like Eyjafjallajökull. Then, as a commissioner, I would think that they of all people should know what they are getting into and be prepared to moderate issues. No, it's been his way or the highway. The first real heated discussion, he threatens to get people (well mainly me) kicked off the boards. And from then on, he has somewhat used his commissioner belt as proof of his power, and tried to make everyone fit into the old regime of how things have been.

Well, I'm going to be nicer, just so NYCG can smile (I like it when nice girls smile, makes me all warm and fuzzy inside), and because I promised Yak, who is a softy, and somewhat of a punching bag (don't EDIT that, we're friends irl, it's cool for real, trust me) but the old boards are done. I think people should be able to voice their opinion without fear of being thrown to the dungeons of King John. I feel like I need to draft the Magna Carta of drafters. "...we demand liberty, by law, for all GM!" My biggest thing is this, I respect Durron, but I give him a hard time. I respect EF, and have royally been a thorn in his ass. But they have all given me the same level of respect, and so has everyone else in this draft except D1, who has let it get personal. We're all here to just have fun as Chim says, and I don't think it's out of line, and I know we're evolving into new people as we get older, and hair starts growing in places... like under your arm you sickos.

But look to the prophet, by Khalil Gibron, for wisdom in this situation. "Your soul is oftentimes a battlefield, upon which your reason and your judgment wage war against your passion and your appetite... for reason ruling alone is a force confining; and passion, unattended, is a flame that burns into its own destruction." So, for those of us ruled by passion, maybe some more reason would help, and for those who are strict law abiding citizens, maybe some passion now and again is good for the soul. I think this is healthy, and normal, but in all things, lets have respect for each other. Realize that no one man is an island in the sea of blame, but we are all connected in someway, except NYCG who is clearly an angel that hovers above, which would make Durron some devilish imp, but that's another allegory not here nor there.

But, if we GMs have offended, think but this, and all is mended. That you have but slumbered here, while these visions did appear. And this weak and idle theme, no more yielding but a dream. GMs, do not reprehend: if you pardon, we will mend. And, as I am an honest Puck, if we have unearned luck. Now to 'scape the serpent's tongue, we will make amends ere long; else the Puck a liar call. So, good night unto you all.

 

Eh, there's a comment or two in here I wouldn't mind commenting on, but honestly? There's nothing to be gained from that. Agree to disagree and all that jazz. Bottom line: I'm definitely in the boat with everyone who thinks this little group therapy session wasn't really needed. At all.

Yeah, it does seem to be a touch personal with Kalar and Despised. Unfortunate, that. But they're big boys, and no one can get along with everyone. It's entirely likely that Chim and I will never get along 100%. But I'm fine with that and I'm sure he is as well. Speaking for myself, that little... ummmm, rivalry? I guess? Well, I've been having fun with it for, like, years now. People are going to disagree with eachother in these games. It's the nature of the beast. It may even devolve into petty bickering every once in a while. That's... whatever.

So, uh, since everyone's decided to start quoting and/or getting all poetical all of a sudden, I thought I'd drop one for ol' Yak.

"There is a principle which is a bar against all information, which is proof against all arguments and which cannot fail to keep a man in everlasting ignorance - that principle is contempt prior to investigation" - Herbert Spencer

 

I haven't chimed in or edited a lot because I usually come in after Nat has already edited the argument. The one time I've stumbled upon a powder keg with a lit fuse, I cut the cord instead of letting it blow up. But all that did was keep it from blowing up that one time. Obviously, the fuse keeps getting lit. This thread is designed as a way to keep us from getting worse than it is. Heated discussion? Fine. But the attacks are what needs to stop. There are people involved, and not just one person, who really need to grow up when it comes to certain situations. And it isn't just this situation, there have been others in the past. Will happen in the future. But there is a line between joking like we've always done and the way the arguments have been heading.

 

Well, I'm convinced.

 

I dunno what you're trying to say there, Yak. You're being so vague right now.

 

IThat's fine BaSSiL and I'm not saying anything bad about that because you probaby did the right thing by the mod handbook. All I am saying is that by doing things that way you make it seem, at least to me, that you don't have an issue with what is going on. None of us can see your modsquad hidden post discussions or PMs so none of us know how you feel. Actually all we see is a flurry of confusing edits that actually make the situation a whole more dramatic and worse than it ever was to begin with. Have you gone back and actually reviewed what was originally posted to see if any of this crap was serious enough to require editing? Personally it enrages me when I am edited by a mod, especially for their personal reasoning. It makes me want to post commets that just push the envelope further, immature maybe but that is how I feel about weak reasoning behind modding.

Ok so you haven't edited any posts in here and to me that means, again, that nothing is wrong with what's been posted. But you watch, I bet Nat comes in here tomorrow and edits them. Why, well who knows? Do you? Nothing is actually wrong with them, they aren't violent bickering nor do they violate the ToS but there will be edits, unnecessary and unwarranted edits.

EDIT: It is true what Durron said, that the two of us do not and will probably never agree 100% of the time. Like cats and dogs we are. But you may however put a tally mark in the 'agree' column for us because I feel, as Durron does, that this thread is totally unneeded. This is something that easily could have been dealt with on an individual level and not made public. I have never seen a thread made to address such a simple problem that involves so few people. Was this really something that a PM or aim chat wouldn't have been able to solve for all involved parties? Uggh...if you really want to edit something make be this whole thread and just delete it because it actually is unnecessary.

 

Just for the record...I agree with Chim and Durron. This is a problem with individuals...not the first time I have said this...but just to restate my view...this should be dealt with on an individual level and not be made a forum-wide issue. Since you want to do it this way however, I am going to vent my thoughts here.

Are you kidding me with this? Honestly?

In my first post in here I fully admitted to falling into some of the same behavior I cited as a problem. Do you read anything at all?

Also, it isn't like I have been this annoyed about the way you act since the moment you showed up in the last draft...but really...after a year of hearing you nag and whine and pick and prod about damn near every thing under the sun it does get old. The mini-draft has been the cherry on the cake for me, and yes I have been a commish 3 times now...I know what I am getting into...and this is the first time I have had to deal with someone who finds so much fault in EVERYTHING without any real reason for it.

Do I react wrongly? Sure. I should not be giving you the reaction I give you. But after dealing with you for almost a year now I have had my fill, and I am tired of it, and I shoot back.

How have I done anything that has been "my way or the highway"? There have been 5(?) disagreements in the mini, of which you were the one who really started all of them. I asked for opinions in each and every instance except the last, becuase you sending in #'s late was your own fault, I didn't need others opinions for that.

1) I suggested asking the mods to remove you why? Do you remember? It was not because you diasgreed with anyone, it was because you insulted people when disagreeing with them....which you ALWAYS do...for some reason it isn't enough for you to simply debate and disagree....you always have to make it personal. If find your behavior to be nothing more than a troll/baiter...I don't see why we should allow you to play when you do stuff like that. Is it wrong for me to react to it? Obviously. But should you be held accountable for repeatedly doing the same stuff over and over again? I think so.

2) Anti-Venom: You wanted a version of a character that makes no sense. Venom and Anti-Venom are obviously different symbiotes so I didn't allow it. You don't like that? I don't care really. Nobody really seemed to disagree with my call except you, in fact Yak pointedly said he agreed with the call. Even when considering that decision, I was the one who suggested in the draft discussion thread that we add a way for someone to select Anti-Venom if they want him. It was a fair call.

3) Live Wire: Completely a situation that was the fault of you and Yak simply misunderstanding and not seeking clarification. You scream and complain about it, but the facts are that Live Wire (Garth) was on the list since the first draft and not since the last draft in which you and Yak claimed he put him on the list...that character has also been on the list longer than the one you claimed it was has even been appearing in comics.

4) Hawkeye/Patriot: You tried to go against what the trump was obviously intended to be, and tried to select a different version of a character. It is clear upon looking at the trump that it is a Young Avenger thing, one does not even need to be very familiar with the Young Avengers to see it. Multiple people posted in on that, and there is no reason to think that I slighted you b

 

D1, in the state of the draft thread, I'm not going to attack you. This is basically a Kumbaya thread that is needed to calm things, but you're still simmering. Your first post was fine, the rest after that have done nothing but reinforce the mods' thoughts that some people can't handle what's going on, and that's why we are here, and people are getting edited. I've said I'm going to back off you since this has clearly been too fierce of bantering than you're use to. But if you step back, most of the things you've listed were petty, and if they weren't escalated by threats, we probably wouldn't be here. EF, as much as I hate to admit it, is right. If gas wasn't thrown on my passion's fire, we'd be moving on like always. So please, can we drop this and move. I, like Chim, Yak, Durron, and EF don't think it's that bad, and people are making a bigger deal of petty jealousies and misunderstanding that assail our frail human nature.

I'm not going to push the buttons of certain people since clearly it causes to much problems, and try to be more Durron-esque, Chim don't explode on me, in my posts. But, as I told NYCG, if it's that big of a problem, I'll leave. As some have said, these problems are new and because of new people. This reminds me of the south, and it seems like it's a good ole boys club around here at time. When some new people shake the boat, some people fear change, and any little action gets escalated into riots. I've burnt down enough cities in my life, I enjoy the boards, but as my grandma says "I'm getting old now and trying to get to heaven..." I don't want to ruin the experience for everyone just so I can make a point. If most of you feel that the problem is so bad that we can't surpass it with our current dynamics, then you can go back to the old way.

In all honesty we can all try to tone it down, but we are who we are. I'm not one to watch injustices go by, even if most people disagree with me. Everyone of the issues you've listed, at least another person has agreed with me, so I'm not alone. And D1, you say if I don't get "MY" way I make a scene, well read the other post, several people say they agree with me on most of what I say, but they just don't want to piss off the community and will take it. And what really upsets me is you say you read what other people say and listen, but recently it seems that you've just tried to prove me wrong. Please read my post on this thread, Yak's, Chim's, and even EF's, and you will see that most of what you've said recently (not your first post, it was a good post) contradicts what we 4 collectively have said, and it seems that most of what you're pulling from is your own personal rage against me. Recent Red Lantern Corp inductee? I just happen to speak for the people you disagree with at times. And I've talked with NYCG about this, some of my comments have warranted editing, but those were all a long time ago. Some of my comments have been edited because they were a part of the escalation, and by themselves wouldn't have been edited. In fact, I would say that all of my recent comments after becoming more understanding of what is acceptable on the boards of ole, have been fine and well within the limits as Chim has also pointed out, but because some people aren't happy, they are getting edited. Long story short, lets all calm down, and deal with change, or hell I'll leave. I don't want people with 10800+ post to leave something they've been doing most of their internet life over someone with less than 800 post.

Edit: And even with the worst of what I've said on these boards, D1, honestly your latest posts has taken it to new levels. Seriously, calm down, because honestly, you've past me in the flaming department as of late, and it's not good for your health. I really want to move past this and back to drafts.

 

Nothing in the last post was a flame Kalar. It is my opinion about the situation and in particular how you act in the draft, I didn't call you names...nor did I swear.

I have tried to prove you wrong? About what? You blowing up about Live Wire? Durron proved you wrong on that. You getting huffy about Patriot/Hawkeye? BaSSiL, EF and Durron proved you wrong there. You getting mad about sending in your #'s late? That was your own issue.

I am the commish and just make the final call, yet in every instance you make a special effort to point at me and say that I made a bad call...or say I am a poor commish or made an ignorant decision. That really is fine...if you want to do that from now on go right ahead.

All I am hearing is that you just accused me of taking the "my way or the highway" approach and that I am beating everyone down so that we do things the "old regime" way, and that I am a "poor commish" who has made multiple "bad calls". Those are your own words Kalar. Yet when I challenge you on your own statements and ask for something to back them up....you give absolutely nothing....which probably means you have absolutely no reasoning for those statements.

That tells me that you are most likely doing nothing more than starting arguments simply for the sake of arguing and trying to blame others for everything. That really does seem to be your pattern since day one, you came into the draft blaming the draft vets for almost anything you could....and have challenged and argued about everything.

Have it your way Kalar, you win....you broke me down. Do what you want. Say what you want. Act how you want. It is odd that you act the way you do, then try to act like you are taking the high road and thumb your nose at others for reacting. But whatever, I don't really see why I should care. I will just try a different approach with you and simply ignore your constant nonsense.

 

I guess a man's word just isn't worth what it used to be...

Maybe I can buy a couple men's words and hang them up on my wall.

 

People can say anything they want Yak, but it doesn't mean squat really when their own actions undermine it.