Speculation Staying Away From Predictability...

Discussion in 'Star Wars: Episode VII and Beyond (Archive)' started by JaimePrater, Jan 5, 2013.

  1. Zuckuss the Ruckuss Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jan 5, 2013
    star 4
    I'm hoping that the next trilogy will be the last of the numerical films, which I would assume would rap up the skywalker saga. Like any fairy tale it needs an ending.

    That doesn't mean they should stop making Star Wars movies though. They can still make trilogies and stories in any fashion. Perhaps single character narrative? A larger ensemble? Set it thousands of years in the past, or thousands of years in the future etc.

    But the numerical films should be kind of the backbone entry point of the saga.
  2. Jedsithor Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Oct 1, 2005
    star 4
    I actually have a kind of bookend concept - two stories. One called Prologue and the other called Epilogue. Prologue would tell the story of the Jedi-Sith war and the formation of the Republic. Epilogue would be set thousands of years after the saga, in a time when the Jedi and Republic no longer exist and the Skywalker saga is considered a myth until a couple of brothers find an old astromech droid containing the only known copy of the Journal of the Whills and a message from Luke Skywalker.

    Unfortunately, SuperShadow couldn't get me in to see Lucas before he sold the company... :p
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  3. Zuckuss the Ruckuss Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jan 5, 2013
    star 4
    Depending on how well the sequel trilogy is, I think the next order of business for Disney would probably be remaking episodes 1-3. I wouldn't be shocked in the least. That would also make Vader fresh in peoples mind again for spin offs and such.

    Before you call me crazy all I will say is "Amazing Spiderman."

    Trust me, they will mine Darth Vader eventually.
    Last edited by Zuckuss the Ruckuss, Jan 5, 2013
  4. Zuckuss the Ruckuss Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jan 5, 2013
    star 4
    Also I want to interject, Lucasfilm/Disney would be REALLY smart to get the rights to Yojimbo from Toho. I would LOVE to see a Yojimbo/Fistfull of Dollars remake as a Star Wars film.
  5. Darth kRud Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Nov 1, 2012
    star 3
    yes please.
  6. Darth kRud Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Nov 1, 2012
    star 3
    Society has evolved since the 1970's and Lucas made the prequels with your world view in mind and they were largely disappointing mainly because of the condescendingly childish feel to the films.
  7. The Bops Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Oct 30, 2012
    star 1
    In response to the Tattooine comments: I'd prefer not to go back there until perhaps the final scene of Episode IX. Our hero gazing off at the setting suns.
  8. chris hayes Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Nov 13, 2012
    star 4

    You obviously don't follow the EU or Galactic timeline .......It's not going to be total non-canon .
  9. Darth kRud Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Nov 1, 2012
    star 3
    It doesn't have to be abject nihilism on film and forget about whatever your preconceived notion of darker is. All future Star Wars films shouldn't be attempts to repeat the original trilogy nor would it be desirable to repeat the Phantom Menace and Attack Of The Clones. The Man Of Steel (Superman) is directed from the same guy who did the Watchmen which follows Alan Moore's view on superheros (in the case of Star Wars it would be Jedi). Moore see's the super hero's of old as corny caricatures of what humans really are, when the story telling is told from the standpoint of moral absolutism it lacks nuance, it lacks realism. What more successful science fiction/hero type films are doing, these days, is moving away from simplistic form, moving away from the cliche's found in most traditional good vs evil stories such as we saw with more traditional SuperMan stories:



    Lucas didn't do this with the trilogies, he didn't introduce a more realistic and nuanced view on the nature of good and evil and what we ended up with was a sophomoric/simplistic take on the creation of Darth Vader, a childish view into the essence of what "evil" is or what drives people to join the proverbial dark side (the literal dark side in the film). Our culture is changing and constantly evolving. Whether people are aware or not our modern advanced capitalist society is at a sort of precipice overlooking the void. People are questioning the traditions of the past and pushing the envelope even further as has been happening for generations and hence art (film), as it imitates life, is becoming not darker but more realistic, more complex and even confusing at times. People are no longer fooled by one dimensional characters, by the unquestionable good guy fighting the forces of evil in such a manner that there is no room for interpretation. Star Wars is the story of good vs evil and in the 1970's and 1980's the old simplistic form worked but seeing our current reality is flirting with a sort of postmodern nihilism I think art should reflect this, at least in order to be credible in any way. Lucas was big on traditional American values, extolling representative democracy, moral absolutism and hero worship but in order for Star Wars to evolve with our reality there should be more exploration within the shadings that separate the villain and hero. This isn't dark per say but simply more in line with our current reality, perhaps more in line with how reality has always been. Realistic science fiction. Go figure :)

    Anyhow, I'm going to post the trailer for the new Superman film and pose a question to people reading this thread - Which would you rather spend time watching? The Superman in the first video I posted or the Superman in the video below:

    Last edited by Darth kRud, Jan 6, 2013
  10. Jedi Comedian Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Oct 27, 2012
    star 2
    The Superman in the first video. By a long margin. Fun, slightly cheesy, and with a sense of humour. Not some humdrum movie that makes him look exactly like every other superhero. Did you hear that first trailer? "Action, adventure, and mystery!" That's what I want to see - all those things, with an excitable 1950s narrator thrown in.

    You know what I would have liked to see? A childish prequel trilogy. You know, unlike the one we got. Prequels that took the trade disputes, and the political discussions, and the moral implications of a Jedi Order degrading under the weight of its own bureaucracy, and relegated all those things to the background. A PT that put swashbuckling fun at the heart of the story. A PT that made us laugh and cheer for Anakin, so that when he did turn dark it was a real punch in the gut. You want dark and gritty? Well that's what we got. We got slavery and Senate corruption and small children being massacred. We got a story that, when you break it down, is far more ambitious and morally ambiguous than the OT. And you know what? People didn't like it.

    This is the thing: fans need to stop equating "dark and gritty" with "good". ESB was good because it was good, not because it was dark. It was dark because that's where the story needed to go. And even then, it had great moments of adventure, humour and romance. ANH was good without being dark and gritty. RotJ went back to being lighter (and not that much lighter - this is where we meet the frikkin' Emperor people) because that's exactly how the story needed to end. If it had ended with Han dying and Luke going into solitude or whatever Gary Kurtz goes on about, it would have betrayed all the principles of Star Wars.

    Keep your dark and gritty. I want the fun Star Wars I watched as a child. The Star Wars the world fell in love with.
  11. Deejo Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jul 22, 2010
    star 1
    Spot on.
  12. Zuckuss the Ruckuss Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jan 5, 2013
    star 4
    Also, was "The Avengers" dark and gritty?

    People didn't like the prequels because they weren't dark and gritty(which is kinda not true). They didn't like them because they weren't well executed films. They were poor from a cinematic and writing stand point. The Phantom Menace wasn't a bad movie because it was a children's/family movie. It was a bad movie because it had poor characterizations, a dragging plot, and aimless narrative. Not to mention, it was pandering at times(imo)

    Nothing wrong with a children't movie, as long as its a good children's movie. I think Pixar's "Up" was one of the most poignant films I've seen in recent years. That was made for kids.

    The last thing Star Wars needs to be is something adult, realistic, and overly dark. We don't need Frank Millar's version of Star Wars.

    Its also funny Krud brings up Alan Moore. You mean the same Alan Moore who hates that the comic industry has constantly tried to do "Dark and Gritty" since Watchmen? Watchmen was supposed to be a one off deconstruction and an artistic experiment; not the template for every narrative approach. Alan Moore, in contrast, created Tom Strong which is as far away from adult as your going to get.
    Last edited by Zuckuss the Ruckuss, Jan 6, 2013
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  13. Force Smuggler Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Sep 2, 2012
    star 6
    The first one. The announcer and the music got me into so much more than the 2nd one
    Last edited by Force Smuggler, Jan 6, 2013
  14. anakinfansince1983 Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Mar 4, 2011
    star 7
    I'm people and I liked it. ;)

    That said, I think you're onto something as far as why some people didn't like it. When TPM premiered, I was 27 years old and had some interest in politics, and therefore I appreciated the subplot of "the Republic [that] no longer functions" due to corrupt politicians, and the most corrupt politician of all playing the situation to his advantage. Anakin was a cute kid stuck in a very bad situation, and I really felt for his mother who was helpless to fix that for him without sending him away from her forever. And when Qui-Gon offered him the chance to become a Jedi and Anakin eagerly accepted, my first thought was, "Oh, little dude, you have no idea what you're getting into. You think it's all heroics and flying around the galaxy." IOW I did root and cheer for Anakin and it was a punch in the gut for me when he fell, enough that I've only seen that half of ROTS once.

    As far as ANH, I watch it occasionally because I like watching Han and Leia, but I prefer a little more depth and moral ambiguity. The straightforward "these are the good guys, these are the bad guys, the bad guys are bad because they like being bad, the good guys are good because the Force is with them" worked for me as a kid but it doesn't so much now.

    As far as the ST, I'd like some ambiguous characters and situations, but newly ambiguous, not a repeat of what we've had.
  15. Jedi Comedian Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Oct 27, 2012
    star 2
    So did I. I was just making a point. :)

    As Zuckuss the Ruckuss said, it's a gross oversimplification to say "dark and gritty = good, light and fun = bad". There are plenty of good films that are light, and plenty of bad ones that are bad.
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  16. Pro Scoundrel Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Nov 20, 2012
    star 4
    I'd prefer them "Staying Away From Mediocrity".
  17. Darthsuggs Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jul 28, 2003
    star 4
    Being repetitious is my number one concern for the narrative of the ST. It's hard to be original with the Sith already. I'm sure Lucas and Arndt have some tricks up their sleeve though.
  18. Zuckuss the Ruckuss Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jan 5, 2013
    star 4
    Probably playing into an enemy that is greater than Jedi/Sith.

    As I've said in previous posts, something Lovecraftian in nautre perhaps godlike.

    Even though the Jedi/Sith conflict can be further explored in other films. I think the next trilogy should try a different approach or at least not make it the main conflict.
    Darthsuggs likes this.
  19. Darth kRud Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Nov 1, 2012
    star 3
    Darker doesnt have to mean dark and gritty in the way most people are perceiving it, the Superman example above was used prior by a another poster and I posted that example in the name of time. Realistic characters is more spot on. Even the OT had more realistic characters - Han being a tad a-moral, killing the guy in the cantina scene. Han and Leah's interactions were more realistic than Anakin and Padmes etc and so on, I don't have time to critique the obvious.

    I don't think the entire tone of the new series has to be depressing and serious (which is what most people are thinking when thinking "darker") there's also comedy in life, good times and bad. IT IS a gross oversimplification to say dark is good, I posted the superman video's only to illustrate how our culture changes and you took a contrarian position to prove a point. Anyhow, I don't think you'd pay 15 dollars to sit in the theaters and watch old 1950's superman shows nor would most people. The old = Superman saves the helpless woman, superman saves the cat stuck in a tree, superman fights the spear wielding savages and drinks a glass of milk afterwards. The new one looks into the person that is superman. You connect with the character (at least that's what they're shooting for). He struggles with morality on a more realistic scale. Compare that to Lucas story explaining Anakins switch to the dark side. There was no connection with Anakin. There was no nuance in his switch to the dark side (which is what the entire point of the prequels was, the story of Darth Vader). One day he's found as a child then his mother dies and he kills a bunch of beast men then to save Padme from the same fate all the sudden he's killing younglings and has dreams of taking over the galaxy. It was utterly simplistic. Lacking. Unrealistic. Like the 1950's superman video I posted above. Darker doesn't mean, in my opinion, a Schindler's List type film more so the story of good vs evil has to be more realistic and our reality, sorry to say, is much more complicated than the world Lucas put forth with the prequels. Our reality is much darker than the Saturday morning cartoon feel he used as the foundation of the entire prequel series.

    There's no way anyone is going to match the magical formula the original trilogy tapped into, Lucas himself couldn't even do it - he tried and failed with the prequels (largely because he was too focused on "family values", whatever that is). The OT was about 40 years ago under completely different circumstances, different cultural norms. People, even 12 and 13 year olds, are no longer going to consume cheesy, simplistic and childish (and I don't think the OT was any of those as a whole). If the new Star Wars is to once again center around the struggle between good and evil, the yin and yang of the galaxy, if the story is to be believable they need to delve into what makes the bad guys bad and the good guys good with a more modern approach and not targeted to six year olds in order to sell toys. The characters need to be human and the story line shouldn't be sterile and robotic.
    Last edited by Darth kRud, Jan 6, 2013
  20. Darth kRud Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Nov 1, 2012
    star 3
    Just because Lucas threw in some slavery, senate corruption and youngling deaths doesn't make it realistic or dark , seeing the fact the foundation of the series was so childish these things only made the films less attractive. Less believable. It was like, here look at these cute animated toys we put in the film, look at cute Darth Vader then BANG, with no realistic explanation he's killing children. It was absurd. The writing was horrible, the acting was horrible, the set design was horrible, the manner in which he used CGI was horrible. Everything was wrong and the foundation of the films being wrong was the Phantom Menace and the Phantom Menace hand cuffed the subsequent two films into being unrealistic hodgepodge's of unmixable concepts. After the criticism he took for TPM Lucas tried his hardest to make the second two "darker", as in, less childish and simplistic, but the foundation was already set. The house had no other choice but to be built on the foundation that was TPM which meant hardly any realistic characters/character development, simplistic narrative, reliance on CGI and the rest is history.

    If Disney repeats Lucas formula for the prequels (which is why Lucas chose Disney, other than the money) then we're going to see more average mediocre films made to sell toys and then secondly made to appeal to the ma$$e$ (ticket sales) which isn't the formula Lucas used with the first Star Wars and Empire Strikes Back. If the conditions that the first two films were made under can't be repeated then at least make the new series believable and not giant commercials/marketing campaigns to sell toys and video games to kids. Lets see some high art and as I said art imitates life and our culture, our modern lives have evolved past the 1950's Superman morality. People didn't like the Phantom Menace because Lucas ignored this fact and patronized the audience with almost two hours of drek targeted to mentally challenged school children. The subsequent two film had to stay in that simplistic world whilst somehow being "darker" which basically in Lucas view simply meant throwing in some murder and burning bodies. Pfft.
  21. Darth kRud Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Nov 1, 2012
    star 3
    I enjoyed this fan made film more than the Phantom Menace, just compareing the two trailers speaks volume.



  22. Darth kRud Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Nov 1, 2012
    star 3
    How did you get 1200 posts in 3 or 4 months? ^ thats how LOL. But seriously, different strokes for different folks. This is one of the challenges making new films that have such a huge fan base already in place. They can't please everyone and if they try to do so I think it wouldn't work. I simply don't want a repeat of TPM and subsequent limitations a new first of three film like that would place on the second two films. More character development, less toy marketing and better writing/acting and I'll be happy to pay 15 bucks to see it but I'd like for them to somehow make an epic groundbreaking series and in order to achieve that I think the overall philosophy behind the films would have to be much more complex. Maybe I'm wrong seeing Avatar made thee trillion dollars. In the end it's just movies.

    Anyway, what would you rather see more of, the first video or the second? I chose the first :)





  23. Jedi Comedian Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Oct 27, 2012
    star 2
    More realistic? I don't know. I would say more believable. I mean, is it realistic for a guy to loose his foster parents, spend one scene getting teary eyed, then move on and have an adventure? Or for a supposedly amoral mercenary to take in wanted fugitives and not try and ransom them off to the authorities? Realism doesn't really come into play with something like Star Wars - it's about how easily we connect with the characters, not how true to life they are. Thus "believable". The characters in the OT are more believable because they have snappier dialogue and better acting, not because they're more realistic.

    Anyway, "darker" and "more realistic" are two entirely separate things. A TV show where a horrible tragedy strikes at a wedding would be dark. A TV show where the wedding went fine would be more realistic,

    I wasn't being contrarian. I was giving an honest answer to your question.

    You're right. I've never paid in dollars to see a film in my life, and I don't plan to start any time soon. :p

    But seriously, based on those two trailers, I can honestly say that were I to go to the cinema and those two Superman films were being shown, I would go for the 1950s one. And I would have a lot more fun watching that. And I think my friends would as well.

    The most painful film watching experience I've ever had was a German film called The White Ribbon. Praised for its darkness and realism. And I was bored to tears. There was a single scene that I found funny, and I'm sure that was entirely unintentional. Nothing in it grabbed me. Nothing moved me. And I cared not one jot about any of the characters. Had it not been the fact that my girlfriend was watching it as homework (she was about to start a film design course), we would have turned it off after half an hour.

    On the other hand, one of the most positive film showings I've ever been to was the 1980 Flash Gordon movie while I was at university. We all had a great time watching it.

    Do you really think that's because he wasn't "real" enough? I think making Anakin more unrealistic - more wisecracking, more charismatic, more "badass" - would have endeared the audience to him more.

    I think 6 hours is not nearly enough time to give a nuanced and realistic portrayal of a superhumanly-gifted young man with various emotional and psychological pressures succumbing to the most profound level of corruption. It was always going to be unrealistic. What mattered was a) how entertaining it is, and b) how much we connect with Anakin.

    I think you'd need a whole TV show to cover that kind of journey. Breaking Bad springs to mind.

    The world of Lucas's prequels was a tad too complicated for my liking. And the liking of many other people. The Red Letter Media reviews make a big point of this.

    Again, I feel the PT erred by straying too much away from the Saturday morning cartoon feel that made the OT such classics. Instead, in shot for almost a kind of costume drama tone at times, what with all the political intrigue. Of the two trilogies, the PT is one with the darker, more complex morality at play. And yet it flounders behind the OT in terms of critical and public praise.

    Agreed. Such phenomenons tend to be lightning in a bottle. Going back to them after such a long time is always going to be very difficult.

    If you don't know what family values are, how can you be sure that's what was being focused on? ;)

    That said, I do believe Lucas's feelings on family are a strong influence on his work, both in the PT (Anakin's separation from his mother at a young age is possibly drawn from his own worries about his children growing up without a mother figure) and the OT (Luke strains against his "parents" and wants to leave the farm behind and have a ,more adventurous life, apparently similar to Lucas's growing up).

    I disagree. As Zuckuss the Ruckuss mentioned, The Avengers was a huge hit last year. Is that because it gave us dark and realistic characters? Iron Man spending most of the time incapacitated due to his drinking? Captain America having a breakdown because of everyone he knew being much older or dead? Thor coming to no agreement with the humans because of his entirely different moral and ethical system, and the fact he doesn't even speak English?

    No. People loved it because we got entertaining characters, fantastic one-liners and awesome action scenes. Because it was fun.

    The characters should be more human. The storyline shouldn't be sterile and robotic. But I don't think darkness and realism are the answers to those problems.

    We never found out what made Vader and the Emperor so evil in the OT, or why guys like Biggs and Wedge were so determined to bring them down. Those films were still kick-ass. Depth to the ST? Sure, I'm all for it. But not at the expense of fun. It didn't work in the PT, so why would it work again now?
  24. Force Smuggler Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Sep 2, 2012
    star 6
    What does my post total have to do with this? :confused:
    I know they can't please everyone but for me personally the OT is what Star Wars is to me. I do also like the feel of the NJO but a lot of other people don't. The PT clicked with me as well but nowhere near as much as the OT except for ROTS. Star Wars to me is the simplicity of the OT. Unfortunately life is far more complex than the OT. Star Wars gives me a chance to escape reality and enjoy something fun without having to worry about anything. Go back to when I was younger. TPM repeated would not be fun for me. I'd rather have the OT repeated. The ST will probably be a mix of the OT and PT. The OT and the PT were made in different eras and the ST is a different era as well. Change is good and all but keep it simple. If it is too complex it could blow up in your face.
    I don't care for either trailer. I'm not that into the Clone Wars TV series. Sorry.
    I thought people went to see Avatar because of the amazing effects?
  25. A Chorus of Disapproval New Films Riot Deterrent

    Manager
    Member Since:
    Aug 19, 2003
    star 7
    If we are "Staying away from predictability" does that mean this thread is where we can be safe from having to read irrational fanboys tell us what the sequels should be like...? I have been hoping for such a thread as this!
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