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Speculation Staying Away From Predictability...

Discussion in 'Star Wars: Episode VII and Beyond (Archive)' started by JaimePrater, Jan 5, 2013.

  1. Darth kRud

    Darth kRud Jedi Knight star 3

    Nov 1, 2012
    You miss the point or decided to ignore it. Should we see more themes such as the first video explores or more themes such as the second video explores. It has nothing to do with supporting or liking Clone Wars it's the essence of whats being conveyed.
  2. Darth kRud

    Darth kRud Jedi Knight star 3

    Nov 1, 2012
    Just about every thread on this forum is concerning what we think the films will be like, what we want to see in the films and what will happen in the films. With your logic this should be your last post, there's no point in you posting anymore. Just accept whatever film they make and be happy about it. No discussion, no criticism, no nothing but pure acceptance. Calling me or anyone an irrational fanboy just because I don't want to see more Phantom Menace type stuff is borderline bullying and defiantly trolling :)
  3. A Chorus of Disapproval

    A Chorus of Disapproval New Films Fearless Vampire Killer star 8 Staff Member Manager

    Aug 19, 2003
    Yes, if I was trolling, it would certainly be in defiance. I find your hatred of the Phantom Menace to be bullying. See what I did there? Now, you can reply with "No, YOU are!" and so forth. I'm glad you singled out my post since I had done no such thing to you.
    Panakas_Dawg and benknobi1 like this.
  4. Force Smuggler

    Force Smuggler Force Ghost star 7

    Sep 2, 2012
    Since I'm not into the Clone Wars series I don't care for either video. The 2nd Clone Wars video has more similarities to the the 2nd Superman video but you can't compare the 1950's Superman video and the Droids Clone Wars series video. The droids are just being stupid and getting destroyed and not a trailer. No comparison. The Superman one tells us of great possible adventures of how Superman can save the day. The 1st Clone Wars video gives us a look at what should be a great season 5 but I don't care for it. I don't care for the new Superman movie either. I'm not a Superman fan either but that's besides the point.
  5. Darth Chiznuk

    Darth Chiznuk Superninja of New Films star 6 Staff Member Manager

    Oct 31, 2012
    Sorry but I've never read a more simplistic view of Anakin's fall to the dark side than what you've written here and it is absolutely not as simple as you'd like to think. I think you underestimate Anakin's life as a slave and want to disregard it because he appears to be a happy kid.

    So I’m going to try and look at the films from Anakin POV. Let’s take his line, "I'm a person and my name is Anakin!" That one "simple" line speaks so many volumes to me and clearly shows that he is struggling with being dehumanized. To the world around him he's someone else’s property and not a human being in his own right. Let’s look at his mother, Shmi; she's the one person in his life that loves him unconditionally not because he can offer her something. But she's a slave too and he must live with the fact that she can be taken away from him at any moment and there is nothing he can do about it. So what does that do to someone so young? I think it leaves him without any sense of security which again I don't think you should underestimate. So then he's fortunate enough to meet the Jedi Master Qui-Gon Jinn and he presents him with the opportunity to escape this miserable life and become a Jedi. But again it's not so easy for Anakin because to do so he must abandon his mother at the age of 9! He must leave the one person who's always cared for him if he is to follow his dreams of becoming a Jedi. But what happens when he gets to the Jedi Temple? He's instantly rejected and told he cannot become a Jedi. IMO this simple scene is so pivotal in Anakin's eventually turn because it creates a relationship of mistrust between Anakin and the Jedi Council (just look at young Anakin's face when Mace Windu says he will not be trained!) So this is the foundation that TPM lays for the other two films IMO.

    Now we get to AOTC and Anakin is Jedi Padawan so his life should be much better, right? But he is plagued by visions of his mother's death and again he is unable to do anything because he is restricted by the Jedi. The one person he cares most for is in mortal danger and he is impotent to do anything about it. He's told by Obi-Wan to basically forget about it and trust the Force! So without any way to help his mother what does he do? He looks for comfort in the only other woman who has shown that she cares about him. But Padme rejects him at first too. Then, still stinging from her rejection, Anakin impulsively decides to abandon his duty to the Jedi and go help his mother. We know how that turns out! He finds his mother tortured and she dies in his arms without even being able to say she loves him. His worst nightmare has come true and not only that but he must now live with the fact that if he had acted sooner perhaps he might not have been able to save her (who knows if he could have or not) but at the very least he could have saved her from more agony! He followed the Jedi Code and now his mother is dead! So he gives in to his anger and his hatred (and who the hell can honestly blame him!) and he goes completely over the line by wiping out an entire village. This scene chilled me when I first saw it because it is so reminiscent of the stories of American troops in Vietnam who massacred villages of innocents. Were those soldiers necessarily evil from the beginning? No, but their experiences in the war traumatized them to the point where they rationalized it. This is the turning point in Anakin's story and everything afterwards continues to escalate.

    And now we arrive at ROTS and Anakin succumbs to the dark side. But what happens in the movie to drive him further down that path? Well he has a wife and a baby is on the way. But he doesn't even get to enjoy this for very long before he is visited by more horrific visions of his wife dying! Now this time around he knows these visions are nothing to take lightly because of his mother and this time he is determined to stop them. So he goes to Yoda and asks for advice but again is given the spiel about letting go of things he cares about and trust the Force (just as Obi-Wan tells him to do in Episode II and we see how that worked for him) but this time that's not good enough. If the Jedi can't help him he is determined to find his own way. Now let's add on the fact of him being put into an immensely difficult position where he must choose between his loyalty to the Jedi Order and Palpatine. Palpatine is a man he trusts and a man who has always shown Anakin that he believes in him, trusts him and cares for him. On the other hand, the Jedi Council has rejected him, been suspicious of him, and shown him little trust. I think there is ample reason why Anakin begins to loose trust in the Jedi. So then Palpatine not only presents a conspiracy theory involving the Jedi (playing on Anakin's own distrust of them) but presents him with a way to save his wife. However, when Palpatine reveals himself to be a Sith Lord with the power (possibly) to save his wife does Anakin immediately turn to the dark side? No, he shows faith in the Jedi and reports to Mace Windu. Does Windu return Anakin's faith by taking Anakin with him? No, he bluntly tells him to stay at the Temple and if his story turns out truthful only than will Anakin gain Windu's trust. Even after turning in his mentor he still can't gain the Jedi Master's trust! So finally when he disobeys Windu's orders and goes to the Chancellor's office what does he find? Mace Windu with his lightsaber to Palpatine's throat ready to cut the Sith Lord down. It is at this moment when Anakin loses all faith in both the Jedi and Palpatine (if Windu is willing to murder Palpatine in cold blood how does that make him any better than the Sith?) and the only one he can still trust in is Padme and so he makes the fateful decision to watch Palpatine murder Windu. After this there is no going back for him and he makes his deal with the devil! As the rest of the movie plays out and Anakin continues to do more horrific things I believe he rationalizes it by telling himself that the Jedi betrayed the galaxy, that the ends justify the means if it ensures peace. Again this is all from (what I believe the movies show at least) Anakin's POV but that doesn't make it any less real for him.

    In the end, I think Anakin is a man so consumed by his fears that he lets them destroy him. He is a man so obsessed with saving the ones he cares about that he ends up destroying them. I don't think there is anything more tragic than turning your friends and loved ones against you and that is exactly what Anakin does. It is certainly not as simple as you say but if that is how you wish to see it I don't know what to tell you.
    Gamiel and anakinfansince1983 like this.
  6. Lord TW

    Lord TW Jedi Knight star 2

    Dec 25, 2012
    The secret to the OT's success was its ability to take big, complex matters, and convey hope through intensely personal stories - in a somewhat swashbuckling manner. Consumers like us can relate to personal stories.

    The PT COULD have accomplished the same thing, and some of the basic plot ideas are right. However, it was wrapped in the downfall of this huge government collapsing, which cuts into the personal stories more than simply informing them. I remember all the excitement everyone on this site had when that hack McCallum announced we'd see a huge Jedi light saber battle in AOTC. My response to that news: "oh, crap." (I think it was Rick; either way, he's a hack, and I am pretty sure Disney thought so, too.)

    A good modern film that could serve as a template may be Argo. It had a big political story behind it, but within five minutes, It dove right into introducing the conflicted but strong unexpected hero. And it had its fun moments, too. For those of you who have seen the film, I am curious if you agree.

    Of curse, that's not exactly the OT template, which was a little kid friendly. Then again, my 5-year-old loves TCW; he just runs out of the room when he gets scared.
  7. JaimePrater

    JaimePrater Jedi Padawan star 1

    Apr 15, 2002
    The political content of the prequels wasn't its downfall, the inaccessible characters and stiff acting was the problem. The Audience needs a point of entrance, a way in which to experience the saga where we're locked in emotionally in some way. For me, the characters were trapped by two things, poor dialogue and a story where there is no suspense....we know the ending. From Episode 1 to 3 we knew how it would end.

    I can't barely sit through any of the films.
    Dra--- likes this.
  8. Lee_

    Lee_ Jedi Master star 4

    Nov 3, 2012
    I am surprised you would say that. You want Luke to be a Bond-type of player? Luke a womanizer?
  9. Lord TW

    Lord TW Jedi Knight star 2

    Dec 25, 2012
    It's not the political content per se that is at fault. It is the unbalanced usage of the big political story against the personal stories. The wooden acting didn't help, but one could also argue that the political environment demonstrated in the PT required a certain...stiffness. That said, I thought Jake, Hayden and Natalie stunk, too. :)

    FRAGWAGON Jedi Master star 4

    Nov 3, 2012
    Let's watch the name-calling-Darth Boba
  11. Lee_

    Lee_ Jedi Master star 4

    Nov 3, 2012
    I love #1, 5 and 8, excellent, and would make for a much better story.

    I doubt they will do #2, that was the only romance in the OT; I think if they are broken up, they will end up either back together, or with one or both of them being killed near the end of Episode 7 and in their last moments, expressing their undying love for the other, and perhaps some regrets for not staying together. Sappy and predictable perhaps, but I don't see this being made with them apart and that being it.

    #3, 4 and 7 would be OK. If they do make a female Jedi as the new main hero, they should avoid supermodel or "GI Jane" types that aren't real or are too trite in the role; they need a really top-notch actress and well written character to pull that one off.

    DARTH_BELO Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Nov 25, 2003
    I like these ideas, and I agree that (if it's true that the Skywalkers will be characters in this trilogy) these things should happen.

    I have a different thought on a few things, though that I would like to see/not see:

    -I actually wouldn't mind seeing Han and Leia married. The only way I'd prefer not, is if Leia is a Jedi, alongside her brother Luke. That would be interesting too.
    -I do like the idea of a Solo child.
    -Maybe the female Jedi IS predictable, sure-but I still like the idea. It's something we haven't seen before. And in this day and age, it could be really effective.
    -Instead of Yoda, I would prefer a force ghost of Anakin. Continuing the whole "father/son" thing effectively. Though I couldn't imagine a part of the saga without Yoda at all! ;)

    I really agree with the idea that whoever the villain(s) are, they need to give it some serious thought and make it good-otherwise it will just pale in comparison to Darth Vader/Darth Sidious, and it will feel anticlimactic. I wonder if there will be less of one SPECIFIC villain, and more of a group-like an uprising of Sith-loyal rebels against the New Republic or something...Whatever it is, it has to be something vast, all-encompassing. Something/one that affects the fate of the galaxy as a whole....[face_thinking]

    One of the greatest things about this new trilogy, is that since it takes place well after the whole I-VI story of Anakin/Vader and Luke, clone wars and rebellion etc., now the sky is the limit! Unlike Ep. I-III, where we pretty much knew the whole time where the story had to go, and every element had to fit within those confines, they now have the freedom to go ANYWHERE with the story! I can't wait to see what they come up with.
  13. Jedsithor

    Jedsithor Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Oct 1, 2005
    Do I really need to explain Superman to people in a Star Wars forum?

    The 1950's Superman and the modern day Superman are the same person. The whole point of Superman back then and now isn't to save the world or change the world, it's to inspire the world to save itself. To be an example of selflessness. Superman is an optimist in a cynical world. The world hasn't really changed all that much since the old TV show came out. When Superman was first published, the Great Depression had hit millions and Europe was on the brink of war. When the Adventures of Superman TV show came out in the 50's, the US was in the grips of cold war panic. The 60's brought the Cuban Missile Crisis, assassinations of JFK and MLK. The 70's had Vietnam and Watergate.

    Why is that relevant? Because the 70's was a deeply cynical time. Superman The Movie came out in 1978 and was hopeful and optimistic and fun. It was a smash hit because people were looking for something fun and bright. Everyone here should know this because the year before Superman The Movie came out, another little movie came out that captured the public's desire to be whisked away on a magical nature. You may have heard of it. It was called....Close Encounters Of The Third Kind...oh and STAR WARS!

    Now look at the times we live in. War in the middle east, mass unemployment, economy in the dirt, politicians can't agree on the colour of the sky....and yes, darker films have reflected the mood of the masses, just as the Godfather and French Connection did in the 70s. But people also want to escape for a couple of hours. They don't always want something to reflect the world, they want something to brighten it. Like The Avengers. Like The Hobbit. Like Star Wars.

    Man Of Steel will be a serious take on Superman. But a serious take on Superman means embracing what Superman is - symbol for hope and optimism. Star Wars needs to be what it's always been - Star Wars. Tell a serious story but do it in a fun and exciting way. Revenge Of The Sith is a dark Star Wars movie but it's still a heck of a lot of fun. Heck, A New Hope has burned corpses and an entire civilisation being destroyed.

    Star Wars isn't a reflection of the times, it's an escape from them.
  14. Fleab88

    Fleab88 Jedi Master star 4

    Sep 12, 2012
    I tried to read through all the posts, but grew tired of the mudslinging from folks so forgive me if any of this sounds repetitive to what others have said.

    My first thought is over the issue some have with the movies being predictable. I guess this is simply just a preference matter, but since when is predictable automatically not a good thing? I don't care if something is predictable just as long as it is done well. Give me a well told story I can guess at, and it is still leaps better than the crummy and disoriented story I could never have guessed form the start.

    The dark and gritty topic is complicated partly because peoples definitions of this idea are often vastly different. My take is to bypass the definition entirely because no matter how you define it it still will not guarantee a successful trilogy. People do a lot of dissecting on where the PT went wrong just like many have done in this thread. Differently people have widely different opinions on where the main cause was the the mistakes for the PT. I personally still like it despite its very clear flaws. it did what it was supposed to, and there were genuinely some bright moments in the trilogy. That being said, there were clearly some mistakes, and I believe it all stems from a lack of evolution in the story.

    People here suggest the start of fixing the problem is to give a darker and gritter feel to the ST. That is just silly. What it needs is a real evolution of the story. That is what the OT had. The story progressed in a way that felt natural. They key factor is this evolution in storyline is not something that can be forced. The PT lost its natural evolution in the story. We knew where the end was going, and so they simply made one scene after the next to reach us down a conclusion that was already created. The mistake was that they failed to make these event feel natural. The reactions of the characters were stiff because the natural flow of the story was non-existent.

    There are plenty of films void of dark and gritty behavior that are fantastic because the story is still natural. Assuming these qualities need to be force into the ST in order to make it good will likely only make it worse than the PT because it will suffer the same root issue. Forcing the story rather than letting it develope and grow naturally.

    I say all this fully realizing that this is just my personal opinion, but in all honesty if they were to go the route the OP wishes then I would have to say count me out as a fan of the method. Let the story tell itself.
    KevinM1 likes this.
  15. anakinfansince1983

    anakinfansince1983 Nightsister of Four Realms star 10 Staff Member Manager

    Mar 4, 2011
    A "womanizer" implies that he would be using women, that he would be playing them while they are thinking that he is committed to them above all others. It doesn't have to be that way. I would think that Luke might be too busy rebuilding the Jedi Order to commit to a serious relationship but might still meet a woman once in awhile for some friendly no-strings-attached sex, with the woman agreeing that there are no strings attached.

    Of course it's Star Wars so most of this would be implied, but Lucas himself said that Jedi were not celibate, they just didn't attach themselves to people.
  16. Lee_

    Lee_ Jedi Master star 4

    Nov 3, 2012
    Oh, I see. I thought that's what you meant by the Bond reference. Some Bond movies clearly have him being a true player, and deceiving those he has sex with as if they will get something more out of the relationship ("You will be returning, wont you James?").

    Luke would have to be careful, as his offspring could be dangerous. But I suppose with that level of technology, there would be a male BC pill available (or maybe a vasectomy to play it safe).
  17. Darth kRud

    Darth kRud Jedi Knight star 3

    Nov 1, 2012
    I've already had this discussion with you in two other threads and at this point it would be absurd if I wrote another ten paragraph critique of the prequels or if I read another fifteen page post from you. Lets just agree to disagree and find something better to do with our time.
  18. anakinfansince1983

    anakinfansince1983 Nightsister of Four Realms star 10 Staff Member Manager

    Mar 4, 2011
    Even with our technology, it is possible to prevent pregnancy 99.9 percent of the time when said technology is used correctly, so...yeah.
  19. Lee_

    Lee_ Jedi Master star 4

    Nov 3, 2012
    I will be interested to see where they go with that though. I read what Lucas said about Jedi not being celibate, but my impression was that he was joking. Being intimate always brings close the danger of falling in love, which could end up like Anakin; my larger impression was that they were more monk-like. I think we are likely to find out in the ST.
  20. anakinfansince1983

    anakinfansince1983 Nightsister of Four Realms star 10 Staff Member Manager

    Mar 4, 2011
    I hope they don't go that route. I never saw the point in any organization mandating celibacy for its members. But I see love and sex as two different entities. Sometimes they go together but it's not necessary.
  21. KevinM1

    KevinM1 Jedi Knight star 2

    Nov 15, 2012
    Yeah, I don't get the "predictable = bad, dark/gritty = good" line of thought.

    For one, storytelling hasn't evolved much from Homer's epics and Greek theater. Things have been predictable for about 4000 years, give or take.

    Second, "dark and gritty" is usually a crutch. It's very easy to raise the stakes by killing people off, or by torturing them, or by doing other horrible things. That's not to say it can't be effective, but rather it's very hard to do right. It's too easy to simply make torture/murder porn without making a point about it. Something like the old "Women in Refrigerators" trope is generally a sign of desperation rather than good storytelling. There's nothing inherently good about being edgy or dark.

    Third, like others have said, "dark and gritty" has no place in Star Wars. This isn't Battlestar Galactica, where one of the main themes is whether or not humanity, with all its vices and self-inflicted hate and violence and pain, deserves to survive. No, Star Wars has always been the classic Hero's Journey wrapped in a classic serial format, with a sprinkling of Japanese samurai and classic fantasy aesthetic thrown in for flavor.

    Now, I understand why someone would be against the idea of a badass female Jedi. I imagine images of The Hunger Games flashes through many people's heads. The thing is, it doesn't have to be done that way. Buffy the Vampire Slayer is completely different than Zoe and River from Firefly (who are both different from each other), just as they're all different from Katniss, who are all different from Ellen Ripley. It's the execution of the idea that matters, not necessarily the idea itself.
  22. MrFantastic74

    MrFantastic74 Jedi Knight star 4

    Oct 4, 2010
    1. Agreed. Luke should be a loner, devoting his time to searching for and training Jedi. I don't know Ben Skywalker from a wart on a wombat's arse, and I'm indifferent towards Mara Jade.
    2. No, keep them together. Kids need to see relationships that work. There are too many broken homes these days.
    3. Agreed, but make it her daughter, and go ahead and name her Jaina Solo to please the EU fans.
    4. Disagreed. The next Skywalker badass should in fact be a Solo, and she should be a female. Of course, keep a good amount of badass male characters in the story to please the major demographic.
    5. I like dark films, but don't go darker for the sake of going darker. Keep it fun and Star Warsy.
    6. ? Agreed ?
    7. Sure, but don't go nuts on the Force ghosts. It would get silly rather quickly if Luke and company are visited by Yoda, Obi-Wan, Qui-Gon, Anakin, Mace, Ki-Adi Mundi, Kit Fisto, Nien Nunb, Watto and Sy Snootles.
    8. Agreed. The main baddie should be iconic, and should persist as a major threat until the third film. They dropped the ball with Darth Maul, or arguably with Darth Tyrannus.
  23. Valairy Scot

    Valairy Scot Backpacking One Pack a Day Mod of New Films star 6 Staff Member Manager

    Sep 16, 2005
    I love how you've presented this. I don't believe this was adequately portrayed, however: perhaps a limitation of film as opposed to prose. I *am* a big fan of the PT despite how some might read the above; the execution was lacking IMHO, or perhaps it's merely that I couldn't connect with Movie! Anakin as I can with the written one.
  24. Corvax855

    Corvax855 Jedi Knight star 3

    Jan 23, 2011
    Here's what Lucas said in a Time magazine interview back in 1983 when asked about the sequel trilogy and how it pertains to Han and Leia:

    In the Sequel Luke would be a sixy-year-old Jedi knight. Han Solo and Leia would be together, although Lucas says, "They might be married, or not. We have never actually discussed marriage in this galaxy. I don't even know if it exists yet. Who knows what relationship they will have? I mean, they're together, let's put it that way."

  25. Zuckuss the Ruckuss

    Zuckuss the Ruckuss Jedi Master star 4

    Jan 5, 2013
    You also can't take a quote that he said 1983 and assume that it hasn't changed. He also said that he would never let anyone do a Star Wars movie, and that he would never do a sequel trilogy "cause there is no story."

    The dude constantly changes his mind. If he said something recently, I would then take it seriously.