Still Good in Palpatine?

Discussion in 'Revenge of the Sith' started by DARTH__LOGRAY, Dec 1, 2005.

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  1. DARTH__LOGRAY Jedi Padawan

    Member Since:
    Dec 1, 2005
    On the commentary Lucas makes it sound like even Palpatine thinks he's doing good, that villains don't know they're bad.

    Discuss.
  2. sithrules70 Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    May 28, 2005
    star 4
    i think lucas meant that palpatine's mind is so twisted that for him what is good is actually evil in real life.that for me proves than palps had 0 good in him
  3. Jedi-Queen Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Feb 16, 2005
    star 4
    If you think Palps was good or did what he did for good reasons
    then I got some nice property for ya, going real cheap.
    :)
  4. sithrules70 Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    May 28, 2005
    star 4
    the DVD says he thinks he is doing good to the galaxy...but thats just only his POV, he deffinitely has no good in him...
  5. Rossa83 Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Sep 8, 2005
    star 4
    I liked that topic: still good in Palpatine.... are you suggesting that there ever WAS anything good in him? I don't think so...

    If Anakin is concieved by midi-chlorians, then Palpatine is conceived by EVIL[face_devil]
  6. JMN77 Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Sep 19, 2005
    star 3
    Lucas is right.
    Hitler obviously thought what he was doing was the right thing for Germany, and I guess the world. But he was wrong. That's just one example. But, like Palpatine his intentions (oddly enough) were world peace (or Galactic peace in the GFFA). Palpatine does want peace, but he wants to be in control of everything and goes about getting peace in a way that does'nt justify having peace. It's like killing an abortion Doctor to save lives....
    The intention (to save a life) is a good one. The way of carrying out that intention (taking a life) is not.
    Hope that made sense.[face_peace]
  7. voodoopuuduu Classic Trilogy Trivia Host

    Game Host
    Member Since:
    Mar 22, 2004
    star 5
    Since he was popular in the Senate, he must have done some good for a lot of senators. You certainly dont get to be popular being evil to people all the time. :p And looking over all six movies, the amount of evil he personally does is very limited. He generally only attacks when being attacked.
  8. LadyZaraMarta Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Aug 21, 2004
    star 5
    Is there good in Palpatine?

    Well, lets see - Adolf Hitler loved dogs- does that make him a good person?

    Adolf Hitler loved children, ARYAN children...but he had millions murdered.

    No, there's no good in Palpatine.

    If there was, using the Dark Side eradicated any goodness in him. He would see it as a weakness.
  9. JawaStew Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Jun 8, 2005
    star 3
    Good thread. I think a lot of people are missing the point here:

    If Sidious *thinks* what he is doing is good, then that itself is a good of a kind - despite the actuality of his activities.

    It is true that Hitler thought what he was doing was right - and this is generally true for those we consider evil.
    He was of course, like Sidious, very much evil (on the ethical / moral scale that we hold common).

    It is very rare to find someone who recognises evil, but delights in it for its own sake.
    This is why 'good intentions pave the way to Hell.' This is why Lucas keeps saying, 'from a certain point of view - he is wise enough to recognise that good and evil are very rarely black and white.

    Don't be so quick to reaffirm to the world that you recognise Sidious' evil to avoid the basic question: is there good in him?

    If he *believes* what he is doing is good, then that, if nothing else, is one small shred of goodness.
  10. Jedi-Queen Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Feb 16, 2005
    star 4
    "Since he was popular in the Senate, he must have done some good for a lot of senators"

    You're kidding right? lol
    How many politicians present one face in public and a diff one
    in person. Someone can be popular and be a totally corrupt fraud.
    Clinton lied through his teeth, but held onto his popularity.
    Look at Bush, Chretien, Paul Martin etc..
    there are tons of examples :)
  11. JMN77 Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Sep 19, 2005
    star 3
    Good summation, JawaStew. Pretty much what I was trying to say, just did'nt say it cause in my rambling I was afraid someone would think I was saying I thought Hitler (or Palps) was good. That's a whole different slab of bacon all together!
  12. darth-sinister Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Jun 28, 2001
    star 9
    There's no good in Palpatine. What there is, is a twisted point of view that all Sith Lords have. The thing of Star Wars is that the villians don't see themselves as villians. This is reflected in real life. Those who we define as evil don't consider themselves as such in their own point of view.

    Palpatine: "Good is a point of view, Anakin."

    This is where the line between good and evil blurs. Black and white become gray. The Sith Order has never considered itself evil, because they feel that they are doing good. But they are so blind by the power that they weild that they don't see the truth.
  13. DarthSapient Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Jun 26, 2001
    star 10
    I agree with sinister. The only true moment of compassion he ever exhibited was the touch on Vader's forehead. That's it. Everything else is smoke and mirrors, telling people what they want to hear, in order to serve a selfish means to an end that benefits only him.
  14. JawaStew Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Jun 8, 2005
    star 3
    I get the impression a lot of people are afraid to discuss this for that same fear, and all too willing to discount any discussion of the merits of characters for the same!

    I know what you mean. But count 'em off - Stalin, Hitler, Hussein, Jong Il, whatever - as a rule, I think you'll find that they convince themselves of their own 'noble' intentions (even when the results are inarguably evil).

    I heard a good quote: 'Hypocrisy is vice's tribute to virtue'. I like that one.
  15. rhonderoo Former Head Admin

    Member Since:
    Aug 7, 2002
    star 9
    Lucas did say that Palpatine thought he was doing what he did for noble reasons. I think maybe when he was younger, he could have thought like Anakin, but power corrupts.
  16. DarthSapient Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Jun 26, 2001
    star 10
    Though Lucas says it, once it's revealed he's a Sith, it makes all of what he said prior empty and and meaningless.
  17. JawaStew Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Jun 8, 2005
    star 3
    That's exactly my point - belief that what you are doing is 'good' is in itself a virtue, is it not? Even if it is the 'sole' virtue.
  18. rhonderoo Former Head Admin

    Member Since:
    Aug 7, 2002
    star 9
    Doing good for selfish purpose is the rub. Then there are the actions that go with it. The ends justifies the means kind of thinking. When you add up all the means, the ends probably is nowhere near as virtuous...
  19. darth-sinister Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Jun 28, 2001
    star 9
    Very few people see themselves as actually evil. Those who do are probably that evil to begin with. Everyone has a point of view on life. Sidious is not virtuous. He is twisted and misguided. He has been raised to see only one point of view, which just happens to be the wrong point of view. As rhonderoo pointed out, Sidious is selfish. He wants to do things his way. He wants it to benefit him and his idealized viewpoint. He cares about the end result and not those who are stepped on and oppressed.

    A Jedi is selfless. A Sith is selfish. These differences are what makes up the difference and go towards why the Force becomes unbalanced and why it takes Anakin to put it back.
  20. LadyZaraMarta Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Aug 21, 2004
    star 5
    Evil never gives one a choice. It's their way or no way.

    Do you think Sidious would have allowed Anakin to walk out alive if he rejected him?

    There's another question for debate, for some other time.

  21. Tachikoma-Kun Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Apr 30, 2005
    star 3
    If you think Palps was good or did what he did for good reasons
    then I got some nice property for ya, going real cheap.


    Heheheh :D

    I think he (Palpatine) is beyound good and evil. Beyound morals. He has his own set of values that he tries to enforce on others.
  22. Captain_Typho Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jul 30, 2003
    star 5
    I highly doubt Palpatine was evil when he was 2 years old. He probably started off just like Anakin and was lured to the dark side by Plageous.
  23. mjerome3 Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    May 11, 2000
    star 6
    Those who are evil never think of themselves as evil. They always think they're doing good, even when they're not.- George Lucas ROTS DVD Commentary


    Are the Sith really evil? There are evil governments, evil societies, evil people everywhere. I think Palpatine felt he did what he had to do by manipulating people and events, and making the Jedi into a monster. So in the end, good is turned around and so is evil.
  24. JawaStew Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Jun 8, 2005
    star 3
    Well they're evil no doubt, at least on most people's moral compass.

    However, I still contend that someone believing they are doing the 'right' thing obviously is at least trying to do what they consider to be 'right', no matter how far removed that is from everyone else's view.

    That to me is a kind of good. And after all, I think it's fair to say everyone, even the most loathsome among us, have at least a tiny scrap of goodness in us.

    Remember: Only the Sith deal in absolutes!
  25. SithStarSlayer Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Oct 23, 2003
    star 6
    (is there) Still Good in Palpatine?

    Absolutely NONE.





    The only thing good about Palpatine is that he dies three movies later.:eek:
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