Still Good in Palpatine?

Discussion in 'Revenge of the Sith' started by DARTH__LOGRAY, Dec 1, 2005.

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  1. LLL Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jul 16, 2000
    star 4
    What everyone loves to overlook is that "evil" never occurs in a vacuum.

    Nobody wakes up one morning and decides to rape someone, rob someone's house, murder someone else, genocide an entire race, or that they need "unlimited power" so badly that they are willing to orchestrate a sham war to achieve it, just for the heck of it.

    People do things for reasons. Maybe they aren't conscious of the reason, but there always is one. Perhaps I should say, because they aren't conscious of the reason, they do things!

    Narrow-minded, hateful, uncompassionate views like, "People are just evil," just perpetuate problems and don't solve them. If anyone gets anything out of Star Wars, I sure wish they'd start getting this.

    I think Matthew Bortolin said it best:

    Thinking of other people or things as obstacles in our life creates division and conflict. Right thought does not exclude. It is inclusive -- concerned for the well-being of all life forms.

    This does not mean we have to
    like everyone we come in contact with . But if we are trapped in the idea that they are nothing more than a bother or a representation of what we find contempible then we are not recognizing their true nature. It is important to keep our hearts open and observe people and phenomena deeply before we pass judgement. We must reflect as Yoda has instructed and ask ourselves, Am I sure this person is the way I think he is? Am I attached to views and wrong perceptions that are making me narrow-minded and unable to see the truth about this person? Are my opinions rooted in fear and insecurity or prejudice or ignorance? These types of questions help us to be mindful and to pass beyond the shroud of the dark side.

    For the Jedi's action to be considered compassionate they must act without anger or hatred, but with the clear understanding that their opponent is caught up in suffering. No matter how terrible the person may be, no matter how many deplorable deeds he has committed, it is out of delusion and pain that he acts wickedly. The evildoer is the product of his environment, negative habit energies, and his own unhappiness, confusion, and ignorance (again, this is not a justification or an excuse for wickedness, just a fact). When a Jedi sees this with a deep understanding that is free of the shroud of the dark side he will seek other means of stopping his foe that do not end with the searing death of the lightsaber. He will attack only out of necessity and with compassion for the evildoer, whom he knows is trapped in a state of suffering.

    ... Of course we can act without violent or murderous resolve to physically stop someone from harming others or doing evil. It can be an act of love to stop violence, and it can be done without destroying the "evildoer" or holding hatred of him in our heart.

    (from The Dharma of Star Wars)


  2. TheCRZA Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    May 29, 2005
    star 4
    It's not like he instituted a draft and involved real people.

    Oh, except for the murder of those rascally, completely innocent Jedi kids.
  3. Nktalloth Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Sep 5, 2005
    star 1
    Compare the number of Jedi killed to the possible casualties involved in a war made of many individuals. In a single battle, I'm willing to bet more clones die than there even are Jedi.
  4. TheCRZA Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    May 29, 2005
    star 4
    The clones were manufactured solidiers... throw aways.
    Hardly the same comparison to innocent non-combatants.
  5. LavaCake Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Dec 19, 2005
    Yeah, clones aren't classified as people.
  6. Darth-Bone Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Aug 8, 2002
    star 3
    Yeah, he created rbotos to fight against fake people, in the hopes of catching his enemy in the middle, like any msart leader with a goal would do.

    It's not like he scooped Farkko the Jawa Juice peddlar off the street and strapped a gun on him.

    Besides, the Jedi are like the ignorant, Pro-NRA redneck folk - they don't even bother to question as to why there is a war happening, they just pick up their weapons and lead the way, defending the very filth they are professing to destroy.

    The flith being opression/opressors.


  7. marqojin Jedi Padawan

    Member Since:
    Dec 1, 2005
    A very interesting thread. "Still Good in Palpatine?" We all have our own truths but do any of us know Absolute truth? A terrorist believes he is acting in God's name and is bringing salvation to his soul. We believe his is a religious radicalism that hates everything and everyone. To him America is the hore of the earth. To us we believe he is evil. Good versus evil. Our point of view the way in wich society thinks at a certain time. Palpatine maybe truly thought Jedi where as evil as it comes. Like others have said it all depends on your point of view on what is truth and what is "Truth". There is no right answer to this question it is all on what you believe. Personally I think evil is the desire to serve yourself first, than others. However, who are we to say what is good for others? So how can one make fair judgments for others or in other words "serve others." It all depends on what you believe.
  8. Achilles_of_Edmonton Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    May 13, 2005
    star 4
    Palps would sell his own offspring for spare cash for the vending machine and never give it a second thought.

    He was always the sadistic manipulative SOB he is in the PT. Like I said, when he was born he probably killed his own mother by electrocuting her with force lightning. If there's a single being who is the embodiment of all evil, he's it.

    And it works that way. There can't still be good in Palpatine because there never was any good to begin with.

    To him, raping infants and sticking kittens in the microwave on high for 10 minutes is taking it easy.

    Bad to the Bone.
  9. Ruins Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    May 29, 2005
    star 1
    Mmmmm Microwave kitten pops. Tastes like Pizza Pockets

    Ruins
  10. darth-sinister Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Jun 28, 2001
    star 9
    Palpatine didn't just become evil one day. He was raised to be evil, but has always seen his actions as being good. Just as all Sith Lords do. Just as people in the real world do all the time.
  11. DARTH_CUDGEL Jedi Padawan

    Member Since:
    Dec 12, 2005
    Darth Sidious don't know what mean the word "Good".
    He isn't evil he is The Evil.
  12. sithrules70 Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    May 28, 2005
    star 4
  13. LLL Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jul 16, 2000
    star 4
    I remain unconvinced by arguments like this one:

    Palps would sell his own offspring for spare cash for the vending machine and never give it a second thought.

    He was always the sadistic manipulative SOB he is in the PT. Like I said, when he was born he probably killed his own mother by electrocuting her with force lightning. If there's a single being who is the embodiment of all evil, he's it.

    And it works that way. There can't still be good in Palpatine because there never was any good to begin with.

    To him, raping infants and sticking kittens in the microwave on high for 10 minutes is taking it easy.

    Bad to the Bone.


    Until we graduate from this kind of thinking, there will never be peace on Earth.
  14. TheCRZA Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    May 29, 2005
    star 4
    Palpatine did actually manage to accomplish quite a lot of good.
    Think about it, through his machinations, all of his enemies
    were destroyed. Sure, some of them were Jedi, but a lot
    of them were bad people too.
    And it's not like Valorum actually had a remedy.

    I think what the anti-Sidious people miss, is what the Bush people
    miss about Iraq. It's not a matter of a shining republic based
    on democratic principles, it's a matter of self-determination.
    The galaxy loved Palpatine and did nothing but facilitate
    his rise and sustination of power.

    Sure, he does evil things.. but no one is singularly evil or singularly good.
    To pretend otherwise is an insult to intelligence.
  15. Nktalloth Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Sep 5, 2005
    star 1
    You missed my point entirely. What I was saying is that he could've used unique people, hired up an army from the people to be slaughtered in his wars. Instead, he created an army of clones so that he would not subject the people of his republic to unessecary grief, and spared them from having their friends and loved ones die in a manufactured war. Would someone truly "evil", as you put it, do this?
  16. DarthGroznii Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Mar 30, 2005
    star 2
    For those who want to cast stones at Lord Sidious, remember what Obi Wan said, "Only the Sith deal in absolutes". ;)
  17. orn-free-tada Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Aug 11, 2001
    star 6
    palpatine has been described by both McDiarmid and Lucas as irredeemible with a black heart
  18. LLL Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jul 16, 2000
    star 4
    ... sometimes.

    And then you get that one quote out of 10, from both of them, that hints at something more.

    ________________________________________________

    "As we have seen, acts against others take place in the context of backwardness. I believe that most people who act in oppressive ways, consciously or unconsciously, are trying to meet a particular need that overrides their good intentions. Misdirected, they have sought to meet this need in extraordinarily destructive ways, even while unaware of the need itself. Ultimately, destructive behaviors never succeed in fulfilling the need. As a result, we are witness to cycles of destruction."

    "Commonly, people who are beside themselves try to take control of what's 'out there' in any way they can. They've lost their inner connection, so they try to get a grip on something, anything -- even someone."

    --Patricia Evans, in Controlling People.

  19. DS_Emp_Viper Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Sep 30, 2001
    star 4
    Obviously no one in this thread has seen The Grinch Stole Christmas.......
  20. Mr_Pocket Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Aug 3, 2005
    not at all I'm sure!
  21. DS_Emp_Viper Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Sep 30, 2001
    star 4
    I'm telling you maybe palps heart was just 3 sizes to small...
  22. Mr_Pocket Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Aug 3, 2005

    Not at all I'm sure!
  23. darth-sinister Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Jun 28, 2001
    star 9
    He only created the Clone Army because they would be totally loyal to him. They would obey orders without question, without hesitation. By the OT, he had both clones and non-clones. And this comes from the mouth of Lucas in 2003 and the fact that he didn't replace the Stormtrooper voices with Tem Morrison, since he had him there for the DVD of TESB.
  24. JANGOANTILLES Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Apr 18, 2005
    star 4
    Considering that cloning is no longer just limited to the realm of sci-fi nowadays, I find it a little disturbing that people are arguing that clones are second-class human beings...

  25. mandragora Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    May 28, 2005
    star 4
    Star Wars films are fantasy movies and not psychological documentary films. As such, the Palpatine character isn't a designed to represent a "real life person", but he is an archetypical character - he is designed to represent pure evil. We have one character that represents a fallen human who is redeemable - that is Anakin. We have another character that represents pure evil - that is Palpatine. As a fantasy character, there is no good and there is no need for there being any good in Palpatine.
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