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  1. In Memory of LAJ_FETT: Please share your remembrances and condolences HERE

Senate stolen valor laws

Discussion in 'Community' started by Rogue_Ten, Apr 24, 2014.

  1. JangoMike

    JangoMike Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Jan 13, 2003
    I think its a shame and pitiful when people embellish or lie about their service. As long as they are not receiving monetary gains or taking away legitimate benefits from deserving veterans, then its really not necessary to get involved. Its a very prevalent and growing phenomonom though. There are many internet groups dedicated to outing these posers and I think they do a great job at it.
     
  2. Rogue_Ten

    Rogue_Ten Chosen One star 7

    Registered:
    Aug 18, 2002


    [​IMG]
     
  3. Franz

    Franz Jedi Youngling

    Registered:
    May 4, 2014
    Succinct. I don't like the idea of punishing people for wearing uniforms to Halloween parties. I don't like the idea of mentally ill people being harassed because they run around with sergeant's chevrons on a "borrowed uniform". But, people who intentionally misrepresent their experience and education for financial gain need to be held accountable. There are two victims in this con: The institution who hired the man and the qualified applicant who was displaced.
     
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  4. Jabba-wocky

    Jabba-wocky Chosen One star 10

    Registered:
    May 4, 2003
    Wrong. They must all meet strict guidelines to practice as professionals.

    If someone wants to apply to be the manager at Sears, and claim he got an MD or JD or something to make his application look more competitive, that's not a crime. It's just dumb. The equivalent you are looking for here is somehow going into an active combat zone, putting on a soldier's uniform, and claiming to be actively enlisted when in fact they are not.
     
  5. Franz

    Franz Jedi Youngling

    Registered:
    May 4, 2014
    You're right about "practice". Telling Sears on your application that you have an MD might be stupid and not crime. Accepting compensation under a false claim should have legal consequences. For me, it's the difference between telling someone your a millionaire (legal) and writing a check for a million-dollar purchase when you know your account is empty (illegal).
     
  6. Jabba-wocky

    Jabba-wocky Chosen One star 10

    Registered:
    May 4, 2003
    But the people aren't being compensated for having been in the military. They're being compensated for doing a job. A job that they actually did do.
     
  7. Ender Sai

    Ender Sai Chosen One star 10

    Registered:
    Feb 18, 2001
    Are we really having a Senate thread where "your" is being used in lieu of the correct "you're"?
     
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  8. EmpireForever

    EmpireForever Force Ghost star 8

    Registered:
    Mar 15, 2004
    You must explain to me how an entity that can easily verify the validity of such a claim on their own could be considered some kind of a victim for being taken in by it.
     
  9. Ben_Skywalker

    Ben_Skywalker Jedi Grand Master star 5

    Registered:
    May 20, 2001
    World War 2 started in 1939? Does that mean Japan's war with China wasn't part of WW2?

    *Edit: Just realized I was looking at the first page when responding with this post. Still getting used to this new layout :p

    As someone who's served in the military, I find it offensive when people pretend to have earned medals/awards (especially since some of those medals can be posthumously awarded). And if they reap financial or government benefits by claiming to have those accolades, they should be punished under the law.

    If people can be jailed for taking out a loan from a bank with fraudulent information, then "stolen valor" should be the same.
     
    Sarge likes this.
  10. EmpireForever

    EmpireForever Force Ghost star 8

    Registered:
    Mar 15, 2004
    You don't get financial or government benefits for saying you have a medal.
     
  11. Ben_Skywalker

    Ben_Skywalker Jedi Grand Master star 5

    Registered:
    May 20, 2001

    You don't get a bank loan by just saying you have a job either. You need to provide documents which can be fairly simple to forge.
     
  12. Rogue_Ten

    Rogue_Ten Chosen One star 7

    Registered:
    Aug 18, 2002
    i betyou could totally impress certain groups of people with such a claim in a way that might effect your job advancement opportunities. which is probably why it seems to be a lot of police officers that lie about military service
     
  13. dp4m

    dp4m Chosen One star 10

    Registered:
    Nov 8, 2001

    Uhhhhhhhhh... no?

    I'm not saying it can't be done, but at that point it's a felony fraud charge, I believe (especially since you'll be using a fake SSN, otherwise the bank will be running your normal credit check).

    This isn't what happened during the mortgage-backed security debacle -- all of the actual fraud was by third-party sellers who just falsified data (not the consumers) who then packaged and sold those mortgages to larger institutions who did not do proper due diligence and risk assessment because they were making money hand over fist.
     
  14. EmpireForever

    EmpireForever Force Ghost star 8

    Registered:
    Mar 15, 2004
    Fairly simple?

    We've already been over the job thing in this thread, but you said government benefits. Do you mean the same government which keeps track of its veterans' records of service? How are you going to forge that, when you have to apply for benefits through the same people who would have the actual records?
     
  15. Ben_Skywalker

    Ben_Skywalker Jedi Grand Master star 5

    Registered:
    May 20, 2001
    I didn't mean to say that it's easy to dupe a bank and get a loan with forged documents. That latter sentence was referring to forging military documents, so I apologize for the confusion.

    EmpireForever, you give the government too much credit. Contrary to what an efficient federal government might do, there is no big database where agencies outside of the DOD or Department of Veterans Affairs can search through to verify whether or not a person has really served (much less State Governments).

    And yes, it is VERY easy to fake those documents. Try googling images of DA Forms and you can get every type of document you need that would "prove" you served (there are even examples of how a correctly filled out form looks like).

    Now, getting things like disability payments would be very difficult. However State benefits, veterans license plates, scholarships, discounts, etc dont' really require that much. And if you have all the "proper" documents, who's to say you didn't serve?
     
  16. Darth Guy

    Darth Guy Chosen One star 10

    Registered:
    Aug 16, 2002
    That's not what stolen valor laws are about. I'm pretty sure forging government documents was already illegal.
     
  17. Ben_Skywalker

    Ben_Skywalker Jedi Grand Master star 5

    Registered:
    May 20, 2001
    Wikiepedia: The Stolen Valor Act of 2013 is a United States federal law that was passed by the 113th United States Congress. The law amends the federal criminal code to make it a crime for a person to fraudulently claim having received any of a series of particular military decorations with the intention of obtaining money, property, or other tangible benefit from convincing someone that he or she rightfully did receive that award.
     
  18. Darth Guy

    Darth Guy Chosen One star 10

    Registered:
    Aug 16, 2002
  19. Ben_Skywalker

    Ben_Skywalker Jedi Grand Master star 5

    Registered:
    May 20, 2001
    I'm not clear what you think stolen valor laws are about. Obviously forging government documents has always been illegal. But that doesn't mean you can't differentiate similar crime to reflect the severity.
     
  20. Jabba-wocky

    Jabba-wocky Chosen One star 10

    Registered:
    May 4, 2003
    1. The law is referring to getting preferential hiring by private companies for being a veteran, or promotions for falsely citing experience, not someone availing themselves of VA healthcare or something. You don't understand what you're talking about.

    2. Also, you don't have to "dupe" banks at all. "Liar loans" were a known and accepted practice/abuse of the last few years. All you had to do was state an income figure that the bank announced upfront they would never make any attempt to verify. No one particularly cared if it was real, because it helped generate more subprime loans that could be repackaged into financial products.
     
  21. Ben_Skywalker

    Ben_Skywalker Jedi Grand Master star 5

    Registered:
    May 20, 2001
    What law are you referring to Jabba-wocky? Perhaps you can put me in my place by citing sources. Because after reading H.R 258, I don't see anything specifically targeting preferential hiring by private companies. Assuming we're still talking about the Stolen Valor Act.

    People have tried to obtain financial and government benefits by pretending to have served. The Stolen Valor Act of 2013 makes that illegal. I don't get what the issue is here.
     
  22. Mr44

    Mr44 VIP star 6 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

    Registered:
    May 21, 2002
    Ben, you're improperly expanding the scope of the law. The Stolen Valor law doesn't cover claiming to be a veteran. If someone lies about their veteran status to get VA healthcare or something similar, that's fraud. If someone actually creates a false DD214, that's forgery, which could be considered to be a subsection of fraud, but has higher penalties because forging documents show a higher level of intent. Both fraud and forgery are already illegal, and have nothing to do with Stolen Valor. Preferential treatment in hiring may be covered under Stolen Valor, depending on the scope, which would have to be limited to falsely claiming one was awarded specific decorations to get a bonus or additional benefit among veterans. What Stolen Valor covers are specific awards within the military. Stolen Valor could probably be covered under existing fraud laws, the only difference is that the military awards listed in the law typically involve personal sacrifice, so Congress made them their own subsection.

    There really is no civilian equivalent, which is why the first version of the law was struck down for being overly broad, and the current version had to be narrowed down. Since the public gives special attention to military awards, Congress put additional protections in place for them. If someone claims to have been awarded a Purple Heart in order to get a free steak dinner from the local VFW, that would be covered under SV. If someone claims to be a state chess champion and some organization buys them a steak dinner, it means that the person is a jerk and the group shouldn't have just taken their word for it, but it wouldn't be illegal. The difference between the two is the Stolen Valor law.
     
  23. Ben_Skywalker

    Ben_Skywalker Jedi Grand Master star 5

    Registered:
    May 20, 2001
    I agree with you in that the law covers only specific military decorations. I never said it covered false claims of being a veteran. In fact, I even referenced military decorations in one of the posts above. And to clarify a previous post, the only database that anyone can search for military decorations includes only the top 3 valor awards (one of which only goes back to 9/11). There are six other awards where anyone can claim they have.

    And there are government and private benefits you are eligible for if you have a Medal of Honor, Purple Heart, etc. And for most government benefits (NOT including VA healthcare or disability checks), all you need to provide to obtain those benefits is a DD214 or the award certificate. And like I said, those are easy to print and pass off as legitimate (a civilian isn't going to know the difference). And like you said, Congress places additional protections because of the sanctity of the award. It's not necessarily just getting a free steak dinner at the VFW. It includes things like getting free Purple Heart license plates or government scholarships for veterans/their children.
     
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  24. Beezer

    Beezer Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Jul 5, 2013
    Lying on a resume (job application) is pretty much considered grounds for immediately dismissal no matter what the lie is. I don't see your example of the Illinois police chief being related to "Stolen Valor". If the same guy said he had a degree in Criminal Justice and then they found out he didn't, he would likely suffer the same fate.

    It isn't like someone who falsely shoots his mouth off in a bar about how he served in Iraq is going to be arrested. This is for people who are engaging in fraudulent activity for personal gain. If I tell everyone I have cancer (which, thank the Good Lord, I do not) and everybody feels sorry for me, believe it or not, that's not illegal. But if I tell everyone I have cancer (which, thank the Good Lord, I do not) and I need help with my medical bills and so I receive $15,000 in donations, then I'm in trouble.
     
  25. Mr44

    Mr44 VIP star 6 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

    Registered:
    May 21, 2002
    Except that's where you're improperly expand the scope of the law. Things like "Government scholarships for veterans/their children" aren't covered under stolen valor. If you falsify a discharge certificate, that's fraud or forgery. For example, IL has the veteran's grant, which waives a portion of school costs at public colleges. Forging paperwork to get a tuition grant is illegal. But the controlling factor is a person's veteran status-yes or no. (and you have to be honorably discharged)

    SV has nothing to do with this. SV covers specific claims made with regards to someone's military awards. Candidates running for office who say that they have a Purple Heart. Or the police chief who falsely claimed that he graduated from SEAL school. (Even though SEAL school isn't listed in the law, Congress seemed to put a savvy way around it) But you also have to gain some tangible benefit.

    A political candidate probably didn't receive money or goods, so it wouldn't be illegal. Maybe a test case would be if someone gave the candidate a political contribution solely based on the claim of having a Purple Heart, but I could see that going either way with regard to a ruling. Perhaps the police chief received his promotions and extra pay, but was that directly the result of his false claim, or were they work related? That person should be fired, but arrested? A Purple Heart license plate may be covered, but what tangible benefit does one get from driving around with a special license plate?