Stop Bashing Timothy Zhan

Right, right, and wasn't it you begging AC Crispin to ignore all other private e-mails just to read yours. You seem to place a hell of a lot of weight in your opinions, as if you're the only one around here with sanctamonius crap to spew. Your own brand of self-righteousness is as sickening to me as you find mine. Get off your high horse and I'll get of mine.

Nope,'fraid you've got me confused with someone else because anyone who'd actually READ my post to Crispin would know that it was all in jest.

Furthermore, I think you misunderstand me Kier. I don't find your brand of anything "sickining" I just think you should treat people better. I've shown respect to every other poster who was kind enough to return the favor. "I know their is still good in you. Let go of your hate! It is your true self, you've only forgotten."

I always keep my eyes and ears open. However, if I perceive something to be stupid, whether it be a "newbie" or and "oldbie," I'll say so. Half the time I don't even know who's post I'm reading, unless I recognize the icon. I don't care if someone's a newbie or not, I really don't...I just call it as I see it.

Again, Mastadge, none of that was in refrence to you. So when I say "Oldbie", well, your obviously exempt.

I don't claim that any of you are preoccupied with other posters icon dates. But when it is revealed that they may be inferior in knowledge... must you rail them so?

 

The amount of Zahn bashing here has certainly increased a lot from what was present a few years ago

Thank you, G12, for enlightening me and making me see the error of my ways.

 

Genghis,

A few quick points before I head to bed:

1) If you go back and reread my post, I recognized that the survey was not as scientific nor as accurate as it could have been. You do not need to try and throw that in my face. It was an informal sampling of anyone who wanted to respond. However, it can serve to show a general trend. I honestly do not believe that there were anywhere near enough socks in that survey to change the outcome THAT much. Timothy Zahn's HttE beat the next closets book by a margin of over 3:1. Unless you are trying to suggest that there were at least 15-16 socks of people actively trying to corrupt the survey, which I seriously doubt. I PERSONALLY believe that you dicount the survey because it does not agree with your views, but then THAT is my opinion.

2) Note that I said "the reemergance of Star Wars into the popular literary scene." I, for one, have never seen one of Troy Denning's SW novels (other than SbS) in a major bookstore, nor in any bookstore whatsoever (and I frequent a lot of them). You dismiss his influence by saying he was in the "right place at the right time". Yet, that has no effect on influence. That is the reason WHY he has influence. In the same way, a sword's scabbard can have a large influence BECAUSE it was in the right place at the right time.

In the battle of Gettysburg, Thomas Chamberlain of the 20th Maine's life was spared when a bullet meant to kill him hit his scabbard instead. What influence did that one event have? It had a profound influence on everyone that he met for the rest of his natural life, simply because he did not die. (This was depicted in the movie Gettysburg, but is a true account.)

3) You are correct in pointing out that Zahn was not the only person responsible for the EU. It did have a rich heritage before 1991. However, You err greatly in discounting his influence, especially on the Bantam years of SW novels. Yes, there were SW novels and comics before HttE. Again, I refer you to the survey and point out that DE only got 1 vote for first read. Even with DE included with the pre-Zahn results, they only total half of Zahn's votes for "first read". Again, there is no proof of vote tampering on the scale required to skew the results THAT much.

Based on the results of that survey, I have concluded that, in the minds of most readers, Timothy Zahn has had a profound influence on the Star Wars Expanded Universe. This is not to say that he was the first in the EU, that he is the creator of the EU nor that he is the best author in the EU, only that he has had a great and profound influence. His novels were the first exposure that most readers had to the Star Wars EU.

If you care to dispute that, I suggest that you provide hard evidence to contradict my assertations directly.

Kimball Kinnison

P.S. Note, I used quotes around the word "bashers" to signify that I was not accusing them of bashing. I apologize if I offended you in any way with my comments, but your line of "Please don't lump me in with such people who base things off their misinterpretations or misguided perceptions." at the very least STRONGLY implies that you assumed that I WAS lumping you in with such people. It was to that assumption that I was replying.

 

Apology accepted Captain Genghis!

 

So when I say "Oldbie", well, your obviously exempt.

Well if I'm not a newbie, and I'm exempt from oldbieness, then what am I?

 

Why Mastadge, I thought you knew... your a has-beenbie!

 

The amount of intelligent discussion, on the other hand, has plummeted.

I beg to differ. My posts were lucid, well-reasoned, and intelligent.

 

Again with the angry emoticon "Darkside"? I thought we had a little chat about this....

 

Kimball...
"1)...I PERSONALLY believe that you dicount the survey because it does not agree with your views, but then THAT is my opinion."

No, don't worry. I've discounted every poll since polls have been around here. It's a fact of poll methodology - polls here at TF.N are worthless. That's not throwing it in your face. It's not singling your poll out. All polls here are fundamentally flawed. The sampling is skewed, there is no accountability for correctness, and the sampling quantity isn't significantly large enough to make any claim outside of the fact that "poster A likes X, poster B likes Y" You cannot take these results and apply them to a larger group.

"2)I, for one, have never seen one of Troy Denning's SW novels (other than SbS) in a major bookstore..."

What you've seen or haven't seen is irrelevent to the facts. The fact is you said Zahn was the first of the 90's. That's simply not true.

"You dismiss his influence by saying he was in the 'right place at the right time'."

No, I'm saying that Zahn essentially dismisses his own influence as being in the right place at the right time. I suggest your guilty of what you accused people of doing earlier - going by what you THINK happened instead of what really happened. I base my belief on what Zahn told us. He told us in no uncertain terms his boss was responsible for the reemergence of SW lit.

"Yet, that has no effect on influence. That is the reason WHY he has influence. In the same way, a sword's scabbard can have a large influence BECAUSE it was in the right place at the right time."

Then you can't suggest that Zahn had any influence on the reemergence of SW lit. He held no influence when HttE was released. It was bought not because of Zahn, but because of Star Wars. Therefore, technically any influence Zahn may have had occured after the reemergence of SW lit. That is, he later obtained influence but it wasn't there in the beginning. So, my point stands.

"3) ...especially on the Bantam years of SW novels."

We weren't discussing the "Bantam years," we were discussing the reignition of SW fandom. I don't dispute Zahn had influence on the Bantam years. This, however came later.

"Based on the results of that survey, I have concluded..."

You can't scientifically reach any conclusion other than you made a fun poll that people responded to.

"...at the very least STRONGLY implies that you assumed that I WAS lumping you in with such people. It was to that assumption that I was replying."

Nope, it was your own assumption you were replying to. There's no inherent implication regarding what I thought. I merely hoped you didn't lump me in. You didn't. Case closed as far as I'm concerned.

 

Paranoid...
"Again, Mastadge, none of that was in refrence to you. So when I say "Oldbie", well, your obviously exempt."

They're always debating the technical definition of "oldbie" over in Community. Technically, here at TF.N, an oldbie is anyone who registered after 1998.

Outside of very few people (especially in Lit.), we're all newbies.

Or so that's what they keep telling me. ?

 

Genghis,

I really should be in bed now, but I'm having trouble sleeping (it's 1 am my time), so here are a few quick responses to you:

1) I never stated that Zahn was the first SW author of the 90s. I stated that he was the first of its reemergance in the popular literary scene. There is a difference between what you are claiming and what I am claiming. In order for something to be considered part of the popular literary scene, it would imply that it is available from most major bookstores. The fact that I have never encountered any other SW novels by him in any of those stores (nor could they locate them in their computers) implies that they were not part of the popular literary scene.

2) If you claim that I am misreading your posts, please clarify what I have misread. So far, your responses have been to discount my survey as "unscientific" (something that I stated at the outset and also answered by stating that it can still indicate trends) and then claim that I am misunderstanding the facts.

3) I tend to divide the EU into 2 categories, the older, pre-Bantam stuff (including Marvell and SotME, etc) and the Bantam era, or "modern" EU. This is not to say that one is better than the other, only to sort them by such things as 1) information available when written (i.e. before the sequels) and 2) the influence of earlier works on later ones. I suppose that I should now start to add the NJO as a separate category. If you look at my posts again, you can see that I was directly referring to the influence that Zahn has had on the modern EU.

4) Again, your comments on the survey: I never stated that I scientifically concluded (although there was enough data to predict trends with about a 25% accuracy rate). I stated that I concluded that. They were my own conclusions from the data that I had available. As I stated in the thread about the survey. I would be happy to provide you with a copy of the spreadsheet with all the data in it, if you like. I have been trained in statistics and probability. Within the bounds that I stated for the survey, it was fairly precise (but not necissarily accurate, there is a difference). You are welcome to conclude as you wish based on the data, but it was done following established scientific methods recognizing the limitations of the environment.

Good night, I'll respond to any comments you post tomorrow, er, later today, I mean.

Kimball Kinnison

 

Kimball...
You said this earlier...

"Timothy Zahn was not the creator of the EU, but he was the leader (as in the first, the trend-setter) of its reemergance in the 1990s and beyond."

My point, which you've now dodged for several iterations now is that he was not the leader (as in your definition) of its reemergence in the 1990s and beyond.

Technically, West End Games and a whole slew of authors were the leaders of its reemergence in the 1990s and beyond.

However, focusing purely on Star Wars novels, the first novelist of the 1990s would be Troy Denning.

However, it could also be argued that Veitch and Kennedy's Dark Empire would/should also be complete as it was complete in the 1990s prior to Zahn's work, it was just lacking a publisher.

So again, when I fault you for saying that Zahn was the leader (as in the first) of the EU in the 1990s, it is because you erronously stated that Zahn was the leader (as in the first, the trend-setter) of the EU in the 1990s.

In fact, by rights since Zahn acknowledges West End Games on numerous occasions for paving the way, we can again conclude it would be West End Games that ranks higher than Zahn in "paving the way" of the "modern EU."

Are you still going to backpedal on your statement suggesting Zahn was the leader of the EU's reemergence in the 1990s, or can we put this issue to rest. ?

 

People, I have seen far too much Zhan bashing in the recent weeks

ZAHN Critics, not bashers. Exactly the same as how there isnt an NJO Basher Club in Community


The amount of Zahn bashing here has certainly increased a lot from what was present a few years ago, especially since the NJO began

And the ammount of NJO bashers is worse, and they have a habit of calling themselves 'critics', and anyone that disagrees 'bashers'. Heeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeepocrites

 

Just a short post (not). Thrawn is an excellent Imperial villain because he not sith-evil and he's not a stereotypical cartoon-quality Imperial admiral (like they're portrayed din most books). He is a rationel, real character whose "mythos" in the GFFA and in these forums is immense and legendary.

As for Zahn himself, I can only be thankful that an author with a military focus was chosen for the original books. Although that didn't stop the later Bantam line degenarating into a pile of worthless Jedi-centric ****. Jedi are characters for novice-writers, because they're powerful and everybody knows how they work. But few real readers can identify with them becasue of their powers. Its simple wish-fulfilment otherwise. Thankfully, the NJO, although overdramatic, has made the Jedi human (mind the species-ism) again and we can relate to them, and a few characters, like Jade and Corran stood out from the Solo-Skywalker crowd.

I mean, compare Luke in episode IV - the farm boy who dreams of being a knight - somethign we can identify with, as compared to later incarnationms *and I use that word deliberately) of the skywalker clan, who posses immense power, are the spoiled children of the ruler of the GALAXY, and go gallavanting around in their parent's spaceships. I just couldn't give a ****.

Zahn's mastery (IMHO), is that he took a bunch of merchandising (by which I mean the early, early EU) and made it LIVE. A Galactic War! Massive Human(again, sorry) Tradegy! People and situations we could dream about and write fanfic about. That is what the EU is. Not just a collection of movie tie-ins, but a living, breathing world of dreams.

OK, that post was all over the place, but I wanted to say it and I have a login password, so there.

adious amigos

Communista

 

Look, this is degenerating into a large dog/b***h fight between those who have been here since day 1 ANH and those who joined after the HTTE. Being one of the latter I have to say that I think that Zahn is a good author, better than others such as Jeter. However, that is my opinion and other people such as Genghis and Jag_Fel will have differnet ones.

Even though Zahn has made good creations such as Mara Jade (Debatable), Pallaeon, Talon Karrde and Shada D'ukal, he has made mistakes such as ysalamiri (The biggest mistake) and making Thrawn too good, I never understood how Thrawn manged to so miraculously guess correctly the species of the opposing fleets commander.

 

Genghis,

First, I must apologize a little. I was a bit tired when I was typing last night and my fingers sometimes engaged before my brain. That said, I will also admit that my original comments were not as clear as they should have been. I had been referring to what I call the modern EU, i.e. the Bantam Era, in all of my posts but had mistyped aby forgetting to specify it as well as I could have.

I suppose that at the very least we can agree to disagree on this one.

Although, I would appreciate it if you could give me a list of Troy Denning's SW novels other than SbS and where I might be able to find them. Other than some fairly vague references to them on the boards (without giving very clear names) I have never seen nor heard of them.

Kimball Kinnison

 

LOL, this is great. I think I'll start visiting Lit more frequently from now on.

Personally, I like Zahn's work. I think he is one of the best authors to contribute to the EU. However, people have the right not to like his work and to bash it. Like someone said earlier, how boring would the boards be without debate? For a debate to take place, there needs to be two sides to the arguement.

So no, do not stop bashing Zahn's work. Continue

However, I don't think personal attacks on Zahn himself are acceptable. Bash his work, but not him as a person.

 

Kimball...
"First, I must apologize a little. I was a bit tired... .I suppose that at the very least we can agree to disagree on this one."

Fair enough. I certainly accept we both were up later than we should've been discussing this last night.

"Although, I would appreciate it if you could give me a list of Troy Denning's SW novels other than SbS and where I might be able to find them. Other than some fairly vague references to them on the boards (without giving very clear names) I have never seen nor heard of them."

Sure thing:

• Jedi's Honor (1990)
• Scoundral's Luck (1990)

There is confusion in that they were published by West End Games. However, WEG certainly recognized that fact, as they put the following right on the covers of both novels...

"There are no dice to roll, no tables to consult...It's a novel..."

They wanted to make sure that these novels were clearly differentiated from their main SW products, the SWRPG.

You can find a whole lot more about them in The Official Troy Denning Star Wars Thread. Heck, if you have any questions about the content, etc. Troy even stopped by every so often to discuss a few things.

 

Genghis,

So they were both published in 1990? OK. That explains a bit.

I can then point out that from a certain point of view we are both right then. I have always grown up with the understanding that a decade begins in a year ending in 1, just like a century. In the same way that 2000 was part of the 1900s, 1990 can be seen as part of the 1980s. Our whole "discussion" developed over a lack of definging the term "1990s".

I have one word for that, "D'oh!!!"

Kimball Kinnison

Edit: I just finished checking up on those 2 titles. It says that they were Choose Your Own Adventure-style books. How is it possible to fit them into continuity if there are 22 and 21 endings each? also, I'm not sure where you would classify a CYOA book, as a novel or a collection of short stories. You could fit it in either category, from a certain point of view.

 

Timothy Zahn has bought a lot to the Star Wars Universe. Yeah, he has his flaws, but so do you. Some Timothy Zahn Bashers act like Timothy Zahn is the worst, and they can do better. But the truth is, if you could do better, then why are you not writing books? And don't give me the: "I don't have time." That is bunch of crap. Look at GL, he barly passed High School. If any of the Zimothy Zahn bashers are better then him, then prove it. Show us your work, show us your published novals. Where are your Hugo Writings awards?

 

Timothy Zahn has bought a lot to the Star Wars Universe.

Okay.

Yeah, he has his flaws, but so do you.

Yes, but none of the Zahn critics are selling Star Wars novels to nitpicky fans...And how do you know that we have flaws? Do you even know our names? Who we are? Maybe we're all the same person, posting under different socks! You know nothing about us, any more than we know about you.

Some Timothy Zahn Bashers act like Timothy Zahn is the worst, and they can do better. But the truth is, if you could do better, then why are you not writing books?

If it's their opinion that he's the worst so be it. As for the rest, refer to MY VERY FIRST reply to this thread for a good answer.

And don't give me the: "I don't have time." That is bunch of crap. Look at GL, he barly passed High School.

And he's not writing novels, he's making movies...and at this point debatably doing a fairly poor job of it. I didn't say I don't have the time, I said I don't have the time YET. I'd like to be as educated as fully as I can be before writing books for people to pick apart. And I thought we were talking about Zahn, not Lucas.

If any of the Zimothy Zahn bashers are better then him, then prove it. Show us your work, show us your published novals. Where are your Hugo Writings awards?

I don't think anyone here is saying Zahn is awful, but rather that he's not good for Star Wars, or even less that he's just not all he's made out to be. I never said I was better, I said that there are several who also are, or have the potential to be, good writers. I actually though his Conqueror's Trilogy and some of his other books were good. I enjoyed his Star Wars stories. I thought that Icarus Hunt was crap. I'm not saying I'm a better person, a better author, a better anything than Zahn, I'm pointing out that there are indeed, IMO, negative aspects to Zahn's writing, and that his style and ideas aren't always the best for Star Wars (none of which novels have won Hugo awards). I found the ysalimiri to be cheap cop-outs, Thrawn to be an awful villain. I liked Mara until he messed with her in Hand of Thrawn. I enjoy Karrde, and I didn't mind the Noghri. I found C'baoth to be too over-the-top, and Luke to be played down a bit. I don't think Zahn is the worst, but In My Opinion he is far from the best.

 

Some Timothy Zahn Bashers act like Timothy Zahn is the worst, and they can do better

No, that is how YOU WANT IT TO BE. You wont just accept we have problems with his works, and back them up with reasons


If any of the Zimothy Zahn

Zimmicy Zillickers!




Dude, just face the hard truth. Not everyone has the same opinions as you.








Oh, and to Bash, it has to be mindless. For example, someone who simply posts a thread "MARA SUCKS!!!!!" and doesnt say why. This is NOT bashing, this is having criticisms.

Few pages down, there is one about KJA being a bad writer. Do I agree? Not one bit! However, a lot of the people in there back up everything they say. So I respect that, as they have a thought out view. Like most Zahn threads, they are CRITICS

 

anyone notice the guy who started this hasn't been back latey?

 

Amidala, you didn't eat him did you?

 

//burp

Excuse me.