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  1. In Memory of LAJ_FETT: Please share your remembrances and condolences HERE

Stop Bashing Timothy Zhan

Discussion in 'Literature' started by Jag_Fel, Jan 16, 2002.

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  1. Kier_Nimmion

    Kier_Nimmion Jedi Knight star 5

    Registered:
    Aug 9, 2000


    anyone notice the guy who started this hasn't been back latey?

    Maybe we intimidated him a little. Or a lot.


     
  2. LanceJade

    LanceJade Jedi Padawan star 4

    Registered:
    Mar 26, 2001
    You bastards! You killed Jag_Fel!!!


    Err... who's Jag_Fel? And why didn't you share?

    And in retrospect, it was that easy to kill Jagged Fel??? Chissdude should take notes!
     
  3. Genghis12

    Genghis12 Manager Emeritus star 6 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

    Registered:
    Nov 18, 1999
    Durnit, I hate when I post responses to the wrong thread.
     
  4. Jedi Ben

    Jedi Ben Chosen One star 9

    Registered:
    Jul 19, 1999
    Jedi Merkurian's new thread concerning proof of GL's involvement, gives some interesting info for Zahn critics.

    Amongst other things, Zahn forced Tom Veitch to rewrite parts of Dark Empire because he refused to follow DHC's continuity, while at the same time praising WEG's! The reason Veitch had to rewrite? Contradictions caused by Zahn which he presumably refused to correct.

    Regardless of opinions of the two companies, this is evidence that Zahn's later contempt for other authors, demonstrated by HOT, was also present and active in his writing of TTT.

    Just for the record: Zahn's offences for me relate to VOTF: The lecturing of Luke by Mara and her being let off the hook by Zahn in regard to the dark side. He can further be accused of trying to influence future projects, with the Unknown Regions plot. MAS imported Zahn's ideas of Jedi and the Force to NJO, (how different might NJO be if that had not happened? hmm, quite different I'd say) but had to dispense with the UR plot; while KT dealt with Mara's lack of guilt in BP.

    For full details of where the Zahn info comes from, check out Merkurian's thread.

    Jedi Ben
     
  5. Kimball_Kinnison

    Kimball_Kinnison Jedi Grand Master star 6

    Registered:
    Oct 28, 2001
    Jedi Ben,

    I can understand why you might have problems with Mara "lecturing" Luke in VotF, but I disagree with you. It WAS incharacter for Mara to say those things. I (personally) believe that many of the people who make that complaint about Zahn (and other authors like MAS) are guilty of trying to push too much of the author into the characters. Now, there are some prime examples of authors who do this, and there is some evidence of it in the case of MAS, but I don't see that happening with Zahn.

    Some other authors who do this are Robert Heinein (Lazarus Long, D.D. Hariman), Isaac Asimov (Elijah Bailey, Hari Seldon) and my favorite, E.E. "Doc"Smith (Kimball Kinnison, Dick Seaton). (You can probably guess where I got my screen name from.)

    And, yes, you can accuse him of trying to influence the future course of the EU after VotF. That is characteristic of all SW in general. Even when a major story has been resolved, there have always been overtones of other threats or conflicts available. Look at the end of RotJ (original edition). The Empire was still there as an enemy. That was the entire premise of the entire EU. There were loose threads to tie up from the movies. Zahn was simply trying to do the same for the post-Bantam EU, give them some loose threads to tie up.

    Kimball Kinnison
     
  6. Jedi Ben

    Jedi Ben Chosen One star 9

    Registered:
    Jul 19, 1999
    well I'm not sure what you mean by authors pushing themselves into their characters, I suppose you mean a character becomes a mouthpiece for the author?

    Unfortunately Mara does seem to be Zahn's mouthpiece, he convienently renders Luke uncharacteristically quiet as she all but accuses him of being an idiot, while her crimes are apparently of no consequence.

    If Luke was not so quiet and countered Mara I would not mind as much, but Zahn neuters Luke in effect.

    Even so I see Mara's lecture as being in the school of 'I'm being harsh with you for your own good [even if it mens acting like a complete prat]'. I've never liked people who belong to such a school. How you correct a person is just as important as the correction. Luke is not arrogant enough to not listen to people, thus there is no reason for Jade's harshness. We have not seen Luke reject similar advice from Leia for example. At the same time we are never told how Mara came to possess all this Force knowledge. Her training by Palpatine cannot account for it, for that was dark side training.

    As for influencing future plots, it would be OK if it was just hanging threads a la ROTJ, original edition (not the crap SEs!) The problem is that throughout VOTF a good many of Mara's lines can be read as Zahn dismissing other EU books such as BFC, the Corellian Trilogy and DE especially. Consequently it is very easy to see Zahn as having his view of SW and wishes to see that take ascendance over all others, except possible GL. Zahn has always acknowleged GL could rewrite SW if he likes.

    To be fair it isn't just Zahn, Stackpole and Anderson are about as bad. Stackpole set the tone for the Jedi in NJO with the Dark Tide story, when it can be argued the Jedi should be more active and less concerned with moral philosophy. Anderson recast EU history with the Essential Chronology, resurrcting Daala in the process and sidelining the XWing stories.

    Like watching a pair of feuding Sith Lords almost!

    Jedi Ben
     
  7. Kimball_Kinnison

    Kimball_Kinnison Jedi Grand Master star 6

    Registered:
    Oct 28, 2001
    Jedi Ben,

    I don't see Luke's quietness as being out of character. If you look back of the EU between TTT and HoT, you can see that Luke has become much more comtemplative. He has become more open to listening to the opinions of others and comparing what they say with his own beliefs before making a decision. I, at least, read his silence as contemplation of what she said, looking for the merits in it. That, IMO, is one thing that a Jedi Master SHOULD do. They should not gain the attitufe that they are infallible, but instead listen to and calmly consider the views of others.

    I also feel that each author was within their rights to lead the EU in whatever direction they decided to, as long as they kept within the bounds that LFL and Bantam/DelRey set for them. The moral dilemma that Stackpole focuses on in Dark Tide is a real dilemma. It can be argued that the Jedi should not be as concerned with the moral ramifications of their actions, but at the same time, if they wish to stay on the Light side, how can they NOT consider the moral ramifications?

    Kimball Kinnison
     
  8. ReaperFett

    ReaperFett Jedi Knight star 6

    Registered:
    Dec 9, 1999
    Ben, what did KJA do with the X-Wings?


    And I do disagree with the Daala part. IMO, Daala went extremely out of character in POT. I dont see the Daala we knew just giving up, I would see her starting again
     
  9. Jedi Ben

    Jedi Ben Chosen One star 9

    Registered:
    Jul 19, 1999
    For RF:

    KJA covers the events of XWing but seems to spend more time relating the stories of his own projects in comparison. MAS' books are done quite well, AA's are compressed into a page summary almost. Given he spends about double the space on his JAT and Darksaber story, even though it's half the number of books and material. Look, I really hate page count arguments but to spend the same amount of time on 4 books as 8 books implies a degree of preference. Add in the fact that the four are by the same author as the EC and the accusation of bias and sidelining has some merit.

    For KK:

    I would not be concerned with Luke's quiet nature if it was not for the way in which Mara is treating him. Listening to a reasonably expressed opinion is one thing, putting up with a tirade without protest is another.

    What Luke should have done is ackowledge that she may have had a point but also tell her she was out of line in being so aggressive. He should have told her it would be the easiest thing in the world for him to viciously verbally attack her for serving Palpatine. He should have told her she'd hate being subjected to such an experience, so why does she think she can inflict such on him?

    It is a real dilemna yes but why should it be a problem? Unless Luke has allowed the Jedi to only focus on Force Evil, that is the dark side and have not considered how to deal with other, more mundane forms of evil. A grounding in moral philosophy, moral problem solving in effect would enable them to be confident in dealing with the Vong.

    In NJO it is as if there has been no dealing with a non-force evil, yet what have the Jedi been doing in the 6 years since VOTF? They must have encountered tricky problems where the correct path is nclear, but still had a duty to attend to it. The Vong should be no different. The problem the Vong pose should not be unfamilar to the Jedi.

    Jedi Ben
     
  10. ReaperFett

    ReaperFett Jedi Knight star 6

    Registered:
    Dec 9, 1999
    I would personally guess they had more because the JAT was one of the more vital series, and he knows his stuff well, as he wrote it. But who knows, eh? :)
     
  11. Mastadge

    Mastadge Manager Emeritus star 7 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

    Registered:
    Jun 4, 1999
    Anderson recast EU history with the Essential Chronology, resurrcting Daala in the process and sidelining the XWing stories.

    Actually, no. First came JAT, with Daala. Then came K-Mac's Black Fleet Crisis, where it established that Daala was still a threat out there. And then afterwards Hambly came in, writing a book taking place before BFC, and said Daala WASN'T a threat any long. In the Essential Chronology, KJA was just reconciling the two accounts.

    and sidelining the XWing stories.

    I do understand an author being biased towards his own stuff, but a ridiculous amount of pages was spent on, say, the awful Sith comics compared to some other, more deserving stuff. While the Essential Chronology is great, it could have been MUCH greater.
     
  12. Jedi Ben

    Jedi Ben Chosen One star 9

    Registered:
    Jul 19, 1999
    Yeah who knows? After all XW only covers the taking of Coruscant, a plague, the capture of an SSD, the hunt for a warlord involving the destruction of 2 SSDs and multiple capital ship battles. :)

    Sheesh, one very tangled web, eh Mastadge?

    Jedi Ben
     
  13. Kimball_Kinnison

    Kimball_Kinnison Jedi Grand Master star 6

    Registered:
    Oct 28, 2001
    Jedi Ben,

    At the same time, there is a time to realize what effects your actions would have. For example, in my family, sometimes my parents will make requests of me to do something to their computer. What they want me to do is not always the wisest thing to do, but when I try to explain it to them they will not always listen to me.

    However, when I have quietly listened to what they've had to say and, instead of chastising them for their actions, SHOW them a better way of dealing with things, I have won them over much easier and with less contention than if I had decided to chastise them immediately.

    Sometimes the best way to handle a person is by NOT counterattacking.

    The Yuuzhan Vong are a threat from outside the force. How many of those are the Jedi likely to have dealt with? Remember, over the past few years (before NJO) the war between the Empire and the NR had pretty much stabilized into a series of skirmished (and then peace). The Jedi have not faced a threat on this scale or of this difficulty before.

    You cannot roll in the mud without getting dirty yourself. Just as Yoda pointed out to Luke that he should not go to Cloud City if he valued what his friends stood for, if the Jedi value what they stand for, they cannot just throw even part of it away lightly.

    Kimball Kinnison
     
  14. Genghis12

    Genghis12 Manager Emeritus star 6 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

    Registered:
    Nov 18, 1999
    Jedi Ben,

    That's rather unfair to KJA. The EC is a joint work by both KJA and Dan Wallace.

    Witj=hout going into detail about the history of the EC, we know the general breakdown of work between the two. TOS has "A Talk With Chronologists"...
      KJA: That's why we needed two of us! It's difficult for one person to read all of the new Star Wars fiction as it comes out, much less put it in order and summarize it. So far, by my count, I have written 54 separate pieces in the Star Wars universe. Naturally, I concentrated on my own titles, while Dan worked on the others. He would send me his draft summaries, which I'd expand and edit, and I would send him mine.

      DW: Between the two of us we've read just about every story that has ever been published in the Star Wars universe. Kevin initially concentrated on his own material but also covered many of the other comics and films. I worked on novels, miscellaneous projects, and historical research. But it was a satisfying collaborative effort since we sent all our material back and forth for revisions and feedback. The final book has both our fingerprints all over it.
    Take it as you will. However, KJA admits to pretty much covering his own material for the EC and that DW did the other material. So, at least take that into account before you start slagging authors. :)

    IMO, they're right that the EC was a huge undertaking. I think both KJA and Dan did an excellent job with a summarization. No complaints. After all, that's what it is. If you want to know about things, say like the X_Wing series, they are not holding you back from going to the original source. :)
     
  15. Jedi Ben

    Jedi Ben Chosen One star 9

    Registered:
    Jul 19, 1999
    Hmm, I'm not sure where you get the idea I'm advocating that the Jedi throw away their morals to defeat the Vong.

    In regard to your citing of Yoda, if applied to the NJO we might conclude that Luke and the Jedi should not be trying to save refugees but fight the Vong instead. Luke cares about people, he saved his friends on Bespin and will do the same in the NJO for refugees. Luke rejects Yoda's consequentialism, that he must do that which will do most good even if it means great sacrifice, for a more humanitarian ethic.

    That ethic is tested in NJO but should not be as problematic as it appears to be. Except the NJO Jedi seem oddly blind in regard to other evil, thus they have no way of dealing with it in its limited forms. When a bigger version comes along, like the Vong, they are at a loss. My view is that they should not be thus.

    In regard to your parent analogy: Are your parents not open to your attempt to demonstrate a better way, either in word or deed? Do they not ask you to do X as opposed to demanding?

    Mara seems to demand things of Luke and does not seem open to any other interpretation, she seems hostile to any in fact.

    As for counter attacking, why would Luke need to? Consider how he corrcted Jacen in BP, Luke listened to him then carefully, considered what he said and constructively corrected him. That is what he should have done with Mara, what I otlined in my previous post involved no aggression, instead it was constructive correction; what is so wrong with this?

    Jedi Ben

    p.s. Let me get this right: Genghis, a most notorious Zahn-slager, is telling me I oght not slag authors! Heheh! :) Seriously though if you consider my comments slating KJA to be bad just go to any of the real anti-KJA threads, I am quite reasonable in comparison and you all know it! ;)
     
  16. Kimball_Kinnison

    Kimball_Kinnison Jedi Grand Master star 6

    Registered:
    Oct 28, 2001
    Jedi Ben,

    The points I was trying to make are 1) the NJO is a situation the likes of which the Jedi have never faced before. While you may disagree with the specific path they have traveled, I see no problem with that. If I misinterpreted you posts, I apologize. My point in talking about throwing awa moraility is an extension of the Kyp vs. Luke argument. Since it is somewhat off-topic here (and there are plenty of threads about it), I will just summarize: Kyp's attitutde (and actions) supports an "win at all cost perspective. I reject this (and have been pretty vocal about it in other threads). That is why I say that you cannot roll in the mud, etc.

    Luke has been supporting the a different attitude, one that I happen to agree with, saying a Jedi's duty is to defend. It is the same attitutde that Stackpole brought out in the Dark Tide duology, through the Corran/Ganner partnership. If you look at Luke & co.'s actions in SbS, it is an extension of that attitude. If they value their values, then they CANNOT quickly throw them aside just because of a new threat.

    2) The point of my "parents" analogy was that some what might work with some people will not work with others. With my parents, the best approach is to remain quiet and show them. With others it is to simply tell them. Since I'm sure that Luke, in VotF, knew Mara better than either of us EVER will, I think that he would know how best to react to her, especially with the Force to aid him.

    Kimball Kinnison
     
  17. Genghis12

    Genghis12 Manager Emeritus star 6 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

    Registered:
    Nov 18, 1999
    Jedi Ben...
    No, no no... I didn't tell you not to slag anyone. Feel free to slag away at whomever you wish. I just said to take into account the facts when you do. :)

    You can't reasonably pounce on KJA about the X-Wing portions of the EC if KJA wasn't responsible for the X-Wing portions of the EC.

    And whatever you criticize KJA for in the EC, realize that both authors think of it as a true joint venture.

    But, when I said, "So, at least take that into account before you start slagging authors," I didn't mean anywhere near "don't slag authors." :)

    Dan Wallace said besides his own material, KJA covered comics and movies. He said that he himself mainly covered the other novels. That would include the X-Wing series of novels, I would imagine.

    Now, granted there's not an explicit line-item breakdown, but I think the main target of your X-Wing ire would be Dan Wallace, not KJA.

    But, then I don't think I'd be really slagging anyone who had the monumental task of doing something like the EC. Regardless of its content, it is essentially a summary. Yes, there are new items and filler that one would only know from reading the EC, but those are generally easily to interpolate/extrapolate based on the original sources anyway.
     
  18. Jedi Ben

    Jedi Ben Chosen One star 9

    Registered:
    Jul 19, 1999
    OK KK:

    1) In SBS I would say we see Luke charting a third way, he takes action that directly opposes the Vong but, unlike Kyp, the focus is on saving the lives of the refugees at both Tagfalgio and later Coruscant, not on killing as many Vong as possible. What I qury is why it took Luke 2 years to work this out. In DT it was logical that the Jedi consider how to defeat the Vong. but, the problems there are not resolved until SBS, perhaps not then. Luke has dealt with a fair number of moral conumdrums yet his experience seems useless, when it should help him chart a solution to the Vong. The way to deal with the Vong seems to be Luke's in SBS, which he initially did in DT, again in BP.

    2) That's all well and good, but the people have to be open and receptive to the possibility of there being another way. your parents sound reasonable; Mara in VOTF would have just retorted Luke was wrong, I never had the impression she was that rasonable in VOTF. But,I suspect we're not going to agree on this, so let's call it a day.

    Jedi Ben
     
  19. Kimball_Kinnison

    Kimball_Kinnison Jedi Grand Master star 6

    Registered:
    Oct 28, 2001
    Sounds like a good idea.

    It's been a pleasure!

    Kimball Kinnison
     
  20. Jedi Ben

    Jedi Ben Chosen One star 9

    Registered:
    Jul 19, 1999
    Genghis,

    OK, fine, but my memory for writer history is hazy, hence I rarely venture into the area. See previous post(s) for why. As for Dan Wallace I would say he is collateral damage of a rogue KJA Cruise Missile! :)

    KK,

    OK: Another thread, another time, another place.

    Hmm, you and Vergere seem to be my main debating adversaries nowadays, in a fun sense that is. :)

    Jedi Ben
     
  21. Genghis12

    Genghis12 Manager Emeritus star 6 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

    Registered:
    Nov 18, 1999
    Jedi Ben...
    "As for Dan Wallace I would say he is collateral damage of a rogue KJA Cruise Missile!"

    :D
     
  22. JediTrilobite

    JediTrilobite Jedi Grand Master star 7

    Registered:
    Nov 17, 1999
    I agree with Jag_Fel. TZ did kind of create SW EU.
     
  23. Mastadge

    Mastadge Manager Emeritus star 7 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

    Registered:
    Jun 4, 1999
    Here we go again...did you even READ most of the responses to this?
     
  24. Jedi Ben

    Jedi Ben Chosen One star 9

    Registered:
    Jul 19, 1999
    round and round and round and round we go...

    Jedi Ben
     
  25. Genghis12

    Genghis12 Manager Emeritus star 6 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

    Registered:
    Nov 18, 1999
    Par for the course. That's usually how these things end up going, unfortunately. Or better yet, whenever things are concluded, they are conveniently forgotten by the "losing" side (if there can be such a thing ?[face_plain] ). So, we just end up covering the same ground a few months later. [face_plain]

    But, I suppose not the destination that matters, it's the journey getting there. Or something like that. :) Like past ones, this journey has been interesting, if not anything else.
     
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