Stormtroopers are not clones of Jango Fett

(For the record, I apologize if the above was terse and didactic...long night, trying to sort out a case from work, and I'm just now beginning to pull away from the grouchiness. My wife just read what I posted above, called me on it, and thought a mea culpa might be in order. I was quite undiplomatic. Sorry. I'll be taking a lengthy nap today, I think. )




Actually, here's what the "Star Wars Saga Forum Rules And Admin Announcements" thread says about the Expanded Universe:

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[color=blue][b]What about the Expanded Universe?[/b]

As with the other Movie Forums, the use of EU is restricted. [b]It can be presented as a possibility. One option out of many.[/b] It is not to be presented as an absolute, or fact that cannot be argued against. When presenting an EU argument, it is considered good manners to point out that you are putting forth an EU commentary.

Additionally, there will be no debates about whether the EU is canon. These "Canon Wars" will not be tolerated in the slightest.[hr][/color][/blockquote]According to the charter/guidelines, it's still perfectly permissible to use it, but you don't have to if you'd prefer not to. (And many of us [i]do[/i] consider it to be part-and-parcel of the story, so this is pleasing to both sides, I think.)

[b][blockquote][hr]He is still saying that despite EU having stories which are before, between and after the Saga, it is still something that has nothing to do with the Saga itself. It is merely a continuation of his story. It means nothing to him, therefore he can do as he wishes and if the EU is contradicted by his story (as it has been, though its "fixed" because you make up ridiculous explanations as do the VIPs from the OS boards) then so be it.[/b][hr][/blockquote]"[Means] nothing to him," insofar as to what he plans to depict in the space of two relatively cramped hours, perhaps. I agree with you that he has his own story that he wishes to tell, and I certainly want the films to contain as much Lucas as Lucas can possibly cram into them. (Despite what the prequel-bashers have to say...)

But as for "ridiculous explanations," do keep in mind that these "explanations" are, in fact, official policy designed jointly between Lucas himself and the editors and LFL continuity gurus specifically for the purpose of [b][i]maintaining[/b][/i] such continuity between all the stories. It's not whether I or anyone else wishes these policies would exist or not -- it simply is how it is, and even Lucas agreed to them knowing that having a set of rational, agreed-upon rules in place would serve as an ounce of prevention, rather than a pound of cure.

But concerning his affections for the EU over the years, and how much of an impact it's made upon his thought processes...it has to be rather substantial, if for no other reason than that there is simply [i]more of it[/i], and that he's been exposed to much of it over the course of the decades. And...he certainly maintains a soft spot in his heart for a good many of the tales, including (and especially) the graphic/comics stories that have been produced -- the comic art form was/is one of the primary influences upon [i]Star Wars[/i] right from the very outset of his youth, and he does read all of the major new issues as they're released, as well. (Time reasons, perhaps.)

[b][blockquote][hr]But we're still detracting from the topic of this thread. The EU still has no place in this film forum in any case. This is about the films and only the films (thats why its called the Saga forum).[/b][hr][/blockquote]But a "Saga" can go far beyond the scope of six movies. Your interpretation -- and I certainly can respect it, and do -- is but one of many, to many other kinds of people. For others, the term "Saga" may connote a much broader canvas...but whether here or there, dealing as we are with a set of legends, it can incorporate as much or as little as one sees fit, and still retain the moniker of "Saga."

In the interests of harmony (and of getting this thread back on track again),

 

Obi-Ewan its good to see you keep fighting, its a shame your swamped by the EU'ers you always have to be careful they do hunt in packs.

Or, we come post in threads hoping that common sense will prevail.

Oh and BTW I totally agree with your assessment of the Lucas quote regarding the Parallel Universe.
Its the EU'ers taking it out of context.

Wrong. Listen to Leto on this one, I think he's got it covered.

Well actually remember what Lucas said about AOTC? We'd learn the origins of the Stormtroopers, where they came from etc etc.

It's not entirely impossible that this is where the idea for stormtroopers originated, and while some are still clones, there are recruits too, with their style originating from the Clonetroopers.

Now call me crazy but I sure as hell saw the origin there and that according to the Star Wars films and Lucas himself that Stormtroopers were clones from the very beginning.

The fact that they originated as clones does not mean that they are all clones. The American (once again, I'm using my own country as an example, since they are what I know the most about) military started out only allowing males to join. There were official notices and things of the such saying that only men can join. Things changed, and now women can join too.

In other words, at one time, it was only clones. Things change.

Oh and as I said before within the CONTEXT of the films, it is your belief and point that is yet to be proven.

Nor has it been disproven. It's left open to interpretation, and I've chosen to interpret it using the common sense of what the size of a galaxy wide war would be, and the tolls it would take on the military.

So until Episode 3 says otherwise Stormtroopers are Clones.

But nothing in the movie said that all stormtroopers are clones. See how your arguement falls apart? Implications mean nothing when you see something, then see something else twenty years later.

And as said before none of the films ever showed that the Stormies are recruits, regardless of the different voice, height thing.

And none of them show that they are not recruits during the galactic civil war. Regardless of their status during the Clone Wars.

It was never spelt out.

Nor was it spelt out that they are only clones in the OT. Things change in 20 years.

Only the EU, which has no influence on the films (no matter what you say about Coruscant etc), has ever mentioned it.

More than the EU has mentioned it. Had I never read the EU, or if it didn't exist, I'd still think that some of them are recruits. So that arguement fails too.

Oh and jedi_master_ousley, since none of the sources you gave relate to the use of the term "clonetrooper" in the film,

I don't recall where GL walks on screen in the middle of the movie and says the quote you use either. Refresh my memory. While you're at it, realize it can be left open to interpreation. The idea of Luke Skywalker originated from "Annikin Starkiller." This does not mean that it stayed that way.

provide an exact quote from any character IN the film (AOTC) that proves that they are called Clonetroopers.

You use a quote outside the movie, so do I. The only difference is that what I use has copyrights on it, and the script was written by GL himself, and he's the only you're using quotes from.

I have read what you are trying to point out. But it holds no water because to be honest Lucas isn't supporting your view.

Hmm... well, since I haven't called him up on the phone and asked him whether or not he supports my view, I have no idea on this statement.

He is still saying that despite EU having stories which are before, between and after the Saga, it is still something that has nothing to do with the Saga itself.

The Hobbit and The Silmarillion have nothing to do with the Lord of the Rings trilogy, but I have yet to see someone try to disprove their involvement in the larger picture of t

 

The Hobbit and The Silmarillion have nothing to do with the Lord of the Rings trilogy, but I have yet to see someone try to disprove their involvement in the larger picture of the Lord of the Rings story. It provides a backstory, as does the EU for certain characters in the movies.

You can't use this as part of your argument.

All the LOTR stuff was written by JRR Tolkien.

The difference with SW is that the EU is written by different authors with different interpretations and no cohesion with the original creator of the universe.

It means a hell of a lot to him. It's part of his saga, I think he cares about it. Why is he so involved with the authors if he doesn't care? Why does he go through every plot detail if he doesn't care?

Thats an urban myth. Lucas has hardly an involvement with the authors.

PPOR!

Lets see the Zahn books have been contradicted what with the timeline differences etc.
All the different explanations of the origins of the Death Star, which were finally shoved aside and given way to the true origin that it was created by the Geonosians of all people, and no one else.
Hmmm thats all I can think at the moment, yeah I know two examples are hardly big things but there were a few more.

Actually, in Lucas' eyes, everything in the EU happened.

PPOR. He has never expressed such a sentiment. He accepts that the EU exists but he doesn't actually believe it happened. Thats your own interpretation.

We were discussing the clonetroopers until you (and others) started hijacking the topic with posts about "the EU has no place" and "GL wants it to be this way and it's the only way" and not being open minded about things.

Well since this a film forum we are open minded, to arguments that are within the films not from external sources which mean squat.
And I still stand by my conviction, the EU has no place in this or any film forum, there is a reason we have the EU forums you know.

The reasons that we interpret these things the way we do are numerous, while you focus on one quote and a couple scenes in the movie that do not fully support either side of the arguement

Well at least I use the things that matter, sources within the films themselves. I don't need to rely on sources which are not by the original creator himself.
Your interpretation is clouded by other people playing the same universe.

But nothing in the movie said that all stormtroopers are clones. See how your arguement falls apart? Implications mean nothing when you see something, then see something else twenty years later.

Why this obsession with "all the stormtroopers" etc?
The logical connection from what we have in the PT to the OT means that at this point in time the Stormtroopers are clones. It is only, and I mean ONLY, until Episode 3 comes out spells out that in fact some of them are clones will you be vindicated.
At this stage in the proceedings I am right because the films how me to be.

 

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Thats an urban myth. Lucas has hardly an involvement with the authors.[/b][hr][/blockquote]More so now than he did before...the Clone Wars stories are seeing some major input from him, right now.

[b][u]SLIGHT EDIT[/u]: [blockquote][hr]Why does he go through every plot detail if he doesn't care?[hr][/blockquote][/b]He *does* actually review each new novel proposal as it's submitted, and approves/disapproves the characterizations, plots, and general tone of each.

 

:: sigh ::

this is my last post on this topic. it is not in reply to any previous post. it is merely a point of view stated by a person who does not consider himself a "purist" or a "completionist."

when i view star wars i try to view it with logic. i have read the EU stories for 11 years. yes, ::gasp:: i'm 28 yrs old. i saw all three OT movies in the theater (although i was 2 when i was at epIV, but my parents did take me.) i was 17 when the first of the "new EU," heir to the empire was itroduced. i bought it and read it, and continued to read EU novels to this very day. i could not wait for the prequels, and followed their development through the various SW sources and magazines.

why you may ask am i boring you? simply to let everyone know that there are true fans out there that enjoy all the universe has to offer, yet reserve the right to have an opinion that is not dictated by the large catalog of SW paraphernalia available to us.

i take everything with a grain of salt. the SW universe is not static as ours is. it is constantly in motion. the past is just as malleable as the future. there are many different forces at work that pull what we consider to be true or "canon" in different directions. what is true one day, can the next be changed. we have seen the great flanneled one do this on many an occasion. often contradicting the ideas of EU authors and also as much, himself.

until the existence of the "new EU" the subject of what was under the armor of a stormtrooper was never touched. although there are supposedly some vague quotes where GL makes reference to stormtroopers being clones. i have heard these, as well as other vague references by him that boba fett was in some way connected to the stormtroopers. can i find these quotes? no. but they must exist somewhere because i have heard others speak them. as i was saying, we never see a stormtrooper without a helmet. until 1992, we knew nothing.

then the EU came about. places like carridia, training groud for the stormtroopers came into existence. certain troopers were given names, even stories. the shroud of mystery had been lifted. stormtroopers were men. some troopers by choice, others taken from various planets by force and indoctrinated. some also happened to be clones. some were endowed with dark force energy by the emperor himself. the list goes on and on and the mystery is solved. (shoot, i wish someone had told me all this when i was 5, i thought they were all robots!)

now all of a sudden its the year 2002, epII is finally in theaters. we see the beginnings of the clone war. this war is one all have wondered about for 26 years, ever since princes leia made her first plea to obi wan, "general kenobi, years ago you served my father in the clone wars....." finally after all these years we will see what this clone war that we have wondered about is. even the EU had not been allowed to touch on this subject. i can only assume GL had deemed it untouchable as he did certain other things like the origin of obi wan ect ect... as i was saying, here it is, game time! the clone wars! and low and behold, the clones are on the side of the republic! not only that, but they look like STORMTROOPERS!?!? what the heck is going on here? now what is all this? how can this be. these clones are clones of non other than the same person who is the templet for boba fett. now all the vague quotes from the past are coming together. but what about the EU? what about my $1,867,867,000.00 worth of EU novels!?!? the same ones that had stormtroopers as men? what is going on here?

well i guess it's just another case of GL making his movies the way he wants to, and damned be all those who go against his word. he does not seem to care that his LFL stamp is on those books, making them official continuity in the SW universe. he doesn't seem to care about poor troopers like davin felth. nope, the big mystery of what is under the white skull like helmets is now solved. cookie cutter images of jango fett.

now why would someone who reads the novels like myself and

 

He *does* actually review each new novel proposal as it's submitted, and approves/disapproves the characterizations, plots, and general tone of each.

I'd like the proof of that thanks.

 

;;edit:: stupid double posts....

 

vw_jedi. Great post.

I will add that I do read some of the EU myself but I don't use it when I'm discussing elements of the films because the EU has no place treading on concepts and ideas that the films explain.

But then I am reading the PT era stuff, and thats really more in line with the movies anyway so go figure.

 

You might check out the Fall/Winter, 1997 issue of Star Wars Galaxy magazine (right before it became SW Collector)...there's a Kevin J. Anderson interview in there that describes the process, and how what Lucas decides makes or breaks the final cut.

Each author's proposal is submitted by their agent to LFL, who then forward it directly on to George...without his "go-ahead," the book doesn't happen. He even makes suggestions along the way, such as when he asked KJA and Tom Veitch to have Exar Kun be a "Dark Lord of the Sith," rather than a generic evil Force-user (for use in both the Tales of the Jedi comics as well as the Jedi Academy novels, which were coming out concurrently with one another), and also gave them input into the ancient history of the Sith, Jedi powers he felt the characters should possess, etc.

 

You can't use this as part of your argument.

All the LOTR stuff was written by JRR Tolkien.

The difference with SW is that the EU is written by different authors with different interpretations and no cohesion with the original creator of the universe.

It doesn't matter. The Hobbit and the Silmarillion are just as much Lord of the Rings as the EU is Star Wars.

Thats an urban myth. Lucas has hardly an involvement with the authors.

The Clone Wars books have more involvement than any other project. He didn't used to have a whole of invovlement, but he sure does now.

Lets see the Zahn books have been contradicted what with the timeline differences etc.

I don't know much on that subject, so I'll leave it to someone else.

All the different explanations of the origins of the Death Star, which were finally shoved aside and given way to the true origin that it was created by the Geonosians of all people, and no one else.

I don't recall it saying that it was built by no one else in the movie. When they say what "we're planning to build" it means "we" as in the separatists, not the Geonosions alone.

PPOR. He has never expressed such a sentiment. He accepts that the EU exists but he doesn't actually believe it happened. Thats your own interpretation.

If he doesn't think it happened in his universe, why would he allow it be written?

Well since this a film forum we are open minded, to arguments that are within the films not from external sources which mean squat.

Leto and I both posted the forum rules on the EU. If you refuse to honor them, that is not our fault.

And I still stand by my conviction, the EU has no place in this or any film forum, there is a reason we have the EU forums you know.

And there is a reason the EU says Star Wars on it. It's part of the story. Once again, I posted the rules, Leto posted the rules, please follow them.

Well at least I use the things that matter, sources within the films themselves.

Then I better never hear you say Ewoks. They're not named in the films. From now on, you call them the bear like things, or the teddy bear things for all I care.

I don't need to rely on sources which are not by the original creator himself.

Then I better never hear you say Bib Fortuna. He's not named in the films. From now on, you call him the ugly guy with no tan and things sticking out of his head.

Your interpretation is clouded by other people playing the same universe.

No, my interpretation is aided by common sense.

Why this obsession with "all the stormtroopers" etc?

Because you say that they're all clones. I guess you should ask yourself that question, eh?

The logical connection from what we have in the PT to the OT means that at this point in time the Stormtroopers are clones.

Go ahead and think that, I don't care. But IMO, the logical is that it is left open to interpretation, and anyone can interpret it the way they want to. I really don't see the point in having this debate.

It is only, and I mean ONLY, until Episode 3 comes out spells out that in fact some of them are clones will you be vindicated.

Nothing has proved that there are no recruits 20 years after the clone wars, either.

At this stage in the proceedings I am right because the films how me to be.

Ah, so now your opinion outweighs everyone elses, and automatically makes you right because you interpret it differently?

I'm not saying I'm right. I'm saying what I feel to be true.

when i view star wars i try to view it with logic.

As do I.

i have read the EU stories for 11 years. yes, ::gasp:: i'm 28 yrs old. i saw all three OT movies in the theater (although i was 2 when i was at epIV, but my parents did take me.)

So having seen them in the theaters when they were first released makes you feel more important?

why you may ask am i boring you? simply to let everyone know that there are true fans out th

 

please follow them.

No.

And it doesn't, it just ties elements together.

That was my opinion so **** off.

 

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[i]All the different explanations of the origins of the Death Star, which were finally shoved aside and given way to the true origin that it was created by the Geonosians of all people, and no one else.[/i]

I don't recall it saying that it was built by no one else in the movie. When they say what "we're planning to build" it means "we" as in the separatists, not the Geonosions alone.[/b][hr][/blockquote]Quick point of clarification on that:

It's a chain of custody.

[blockquote][i]Raith Sienar --> Tarkin --> Count Dooku --> the Geonosians[/i][/blockquote]It all still tracks quite cleanly.

 

No.

Fine then, don't follow the forum rules.

That was my opinion so **** off.

I'd prefer not to in the middle of the afternoon at my grandma's house. I'll give you a rain check though.

 

I can't stay long, but I will post this while I can.

How can 1.2 million clones and 9,000 Jedi hold the line? I don't care how good those Jedi are and how good those clones are, it is impossible for them to hold the line on a galatic scale. It is only logical to assume that the Republic will start conscripting troops to fight for the "Republic" soon after the war began.

It is impossible to hold the line without reinforcements. Those reinforcements are conscripts.

I shall be back later.

 

1.2 million clones is a hideously small number for a galaxy-wide war. It is enough to put a single trooper on each civilized planet, but nowhere near enough to attack one Separatist-occupied planet while keeping Republic-owned ones with their defenses intact.

 

Just thought of this, sorry if it's been brought up before but...

If the empire didn't recruit, then what "Academy" did Luke want to go to? If all stormtoopers and clones, then why not all the pilots? In Ep. II we see clones flying ships, so are those pilots we see in black in Ep. IV clones as well? We would have to assume so wouldn't we? In fact, every position in the empire, except for bridge crew and command officers could be filled by clones. And why not? If you?re already making 10-12 billion clones troopers why not make another 30-35 billion for every other position in the empire? Yet Luke still wants to go to an "Academy" that must (upon graduation) give him some position in the empire that, taking purist logic to its eventual endpoint, would be made obsolete by clones.

 

Correct, the Academy that Luke wanted to attend on Carida trained youngsters in all sorts of areas in the Imperial Army and Navy. Many of them became stormtroopers, but others were TIE pilots, walker operators, and even officers.

 

That was my opinion so **** off.
So much for mature debate of the topic?

would a person be wrong just because he assumes what the movies are designed to make him assume?
Your argument is based on YOUR assumption...yet you refuse to acknowledge the ideas of anyone else (if they include EU...which is allowed to be presented on this forum)

Yet Luke still wants to go to an "Academy" that must (upon graduation) give him some position in the empire that, taking purist logic to its eventual endpoint, would be made obsolete by clones
And that was from strictly the movies...can't argue with that logic (although I'm sure someone will try/fail)

 

Officer school. The kind of place where you'd find such people as Gen. Veers, Gen. Ozzel, Cpt. Needa, and Cpt. Piett. Military Academies don't deal with enlisted men, they train officers.

 

But in Attack of the Clones the Clonetroopers were being given directions and following clonetroopers. So if the stormtroopers are clonetroopers why aren't there commanding officers stormtroopers as well. Like clones command clones...humans command...?

 

Military Academies don't deal with enlisted men

Why not? Do you have proof of that?

 

Enlisted men have to be trained too. They can't just put on a uniform and start fighting.

 

The next user to start spouting off about how the EU is good or the EU is crap or anything remotely dealing with the EU debate not dealing with the topic on hand will recieve a spank. If you want to debate EU policy go to the Rules & Admin sticky thread of this forum.

I really getting pissed at the continous derailing of this topic.

Thanks.

 

In AOTC, certain clones are given higher ranks (noted by the color stripes of their armor) then your basic soldier. IF the humans trained in the Empire (are we agreed there are humans in the Empire) are stricly officers, is it not equally possible that some of the infantry/navy/pilots are human as well?