Stormtroopers attributes too low?

A question really do you think straight 10s for Imperial stormtroopers is a bit...I don't know...odd? I mean no offense but with 10 the average I'm going to be wandering around kicking these guys butts but for the level issue. I realize they're third level which is a good thing but wouldn't a 1st level Soldier with 11s or 12s minimum make a significant amount of more sense? Of course it would take a bit away from the Vong who are nasty cusses in part because they have 1d10 hit dice but the Emperor's elite troops I can't believe were solely there because they were fanatics.

 

Remember that there are at least 50,000,000 stormtroopers in the galaxy. (25,000 Imperial Star Destroyers, each carrying a Regiment). They all must be human, of average height of 180 cm, fiercely loyal to the Emperor. They aren't born on rocks you know. They have to be taken from somewhere. The easiest way is to take an average human and train him well (their level's not that bad), put a good leader to command them and you have shock troopers.
If you look at the old WEG books you'll see that Stormies were equally weak there and Navy and Army troopers were even weaker. In the old WEG books it was declared that the characters are heroes and therefore should have as little difficulty defeating Imperial troopers as Luke, Leia and Han had in the movies.
As a gamemaster it's your right to change their stats as much as it is to change the rules. You can tweak them up using the Elite Trooper Prestige class or use the Generic Elite Trooper from the Rebellion Era Sourcebook. A good tactic is what they used in the movies - swarm the enemy with numbers and crush them using modern battle technology. Add a sniper or two if a stalemate develops. That way you can keep the heroes moving and they're bound to run into dead ends or open spaces where Stormtroopers have the advantage of calling upon virtually unlimited resources of the Empire. Air support, orbital bombardment, tanks.
The CAV from WEG's Imperial Sourcebook was a nice idea. Essentially a one-man tank, it was great as a support or core weapon for a platoon.
Alternatively you can use an Imperial villain that utilizes Dark Trooper droids or suits (WotC Rebellion Era Sourcebook) as his bodyguards and shock troopers.
If you are intent on using Stormtroopers, either change their stats, use them in great numbers or put a good tactician as their leader.

 

Here is my take on the stormtrooper thing - these guys are supposed to be clones of really good warriors. If thier attributes are a little above average, skills as well, but they have the mental fortitude to handle any combat situation and unswerving loyalty and moral, that is what they become. Here is why, IMHO:
1 stormtrooper = 1 good warrior
more then 1 and thier value starts to go up considerably. Your average soldier ( I was in the USMC and have a little knowledge on the subject) isliekly to run if his buddies start going down, human nature. Storm troopers are not really human however, and they do not run out of fear. they are above average, in the RPG I would stick thier stats and skills at 12, but they arent super warriors. They cant be otherwise everytime they showed up they woudl destroy characters. Look at the way the main characters chewed through them in the OT!
IMO they should be scary enough that characters shouldnt want to stick around too long to face many of them, but not so scary that they wouldnt want to make a stand when necessary.

 

Well put.

 

Thanks CJK! I did a lot of thinking about this while playing WEG SW. We played alot in the rebellion era, and it bothered me that players just seemed to hack through Stormtroopers like they were so much Cheetos! After watching the movies and observing what I saw there I realized that what really makes the ST so dangerous is the fact that they do not seem to have any real morale issues, which is important in an army. If you have enough to overwhelm a position, you can take it, now add just a little extra training and some neat armor and you have yourself a darn good soldier! (actually one other issue I had was that neato armor didnt seem to be able to stop mosquitoes from getting their fill on ST! I did some thinking about that and realized that it is more akin to a fancy flak vest. The armor itself is spooky, or intimidating to most. now add to the fact that it does increase the survivability of the soldier a little, and it also provides protection from the elements, etc... And you have yourself another situation where, in actual small scale combat you have something that seems useless, but for the money, probably have something really useful! think about it, now you have super soldiers who look even scarier, and can sit in snow, heat, rain, etc... and not have to bat an eye! As an example, just omagine yourself on Hoth, a rebel soldier, in the cold, facing a faceless enemy, who keeps coming no matter how much you shoot, AND you know they are warm and cozy in that armor and unless your shots are dead on, they are going to get back up!).

Sorry for the long ramble, I used ot get into some huge debates with my RPG group over this very subject. I think part of the problem is also the Fluff. if you keep reading in an RPG book that these are supposed to be superior warriors, etc (reads like a real life recruiting book) then you get thisimage in your head. Once your players start taking dozens out at a time (and in my opinion, should, they are heroes after all) then you have to wonder.....

 

Why change the stats at all? Remember, Stormtroopers don't attack in two or three-man groups. They are an army. They attack like soldiers in an army do. That means in numbers, or at the very least with decent tactics.

Your players mowing through Stormtroopers a little too easily nowadays? Throw a dozen more Stormtroopers into the mix, see how they handle it then. Talk about humble some players... *eg*




Realizing Fighting Against 20 Stormtroopers Alone Is Not Good Odds,

Maj-Odo Taji

 

I would generaly agree with you, but in atleast my case now, and in the past, players are rarely deterred by numbers so much as by ability. If the players meet 12 ST, and solidly beat them, they may be tempted to stay and try to fight 20. Now, generally this would be fine by me, its thier decision, but doesnt give me the feeling of the movies I am trying to get with my games.
Rarely did even the main characters stick around to fight against insurmountable odds on a personal scale, better to get out and talk about it later!
Players tend to be more stubborn as they have more at stake gamewise, XP.
If I ran another rebellion era game, I would not want my ST to be just another group of easy XP, they are after all still the best the empire has to offer. If they show up, then its a sure bet the Empire wants them to succeed.
It also gives the feeling of a video game, IMHO. If fewer ST seem to be a threat, especially at higher levels, then you just have to pile on more poor ST, and that gets a bit wierd.
So, I bump them up a little, at 12, they are still pretty easy to take in numbers, especially for mid range characters, but as they get higher, I am not forced to add to the pile so much because they are still good enough to pose a threat.
Anyway, for me it was just personal choice, it gives me a better feeling and seems to be more true to the feel of it all.

 

I agree that the way the Stormtroopers are listed in the book makes them a lot like they were portrayed in the movies. Easy to take out a few, but when their numbers increased, they were a threat. According to the Rebellion Era book (p.38), at the end of ANH, Luke was a level three character and Leia (p.56) was at level five. During their run through the Death Star, they were able to escape from the Stormtroopers rather easily. The only time they had trouble was when they were trapped in the detention area and at the chasm. Even at these points shooting them was not really a problem. The problem was getting away before more showed up or one finally learned how to aim.

 

"If the players meet 12 ST, and solidly beat them, they may be tempted to stay and try to fight 20. Now, generally this would be fine by me, its thier decision, but doesnt give me the feeling of the movies I am trying to get with my games."

I can totally respect that position. As one ST to another, I feel your pain. I just keep this in mind: Han Solo chased a few Stormtroopers around a corner, but even he came running back when a dozen or so started chasing him!

Good luck with your game, and 12's across the board don't seem overly ambitious to me.

Regards,
Maj-Odo Taji

 

Yep, I dont think 12 is too high, maybe for low level players, but players dont tend to stay low level for long!
Really though, it is all a matter of how you want to run the game. I like getting the feel of the movies, its why I started in the first place!

Han was smart enough to turn and run. Players tend to be a littl emore stubborn!

 

Also if they are doing it for the XP then give them the XP according to how much of a challenge it is for them. i.e. if its too easy they get squat.

 

right, I forgot about that option!

 

Never forget about the XP option. XP is what motivates players; it is the GM's best form of coercion.

 

Personally I don't mess with ability scores unless I want specialized troops. I normally just add on more levels to represent the heroes going up against more experienced troops. As a GM I tend to roll terribly *laugh* so the +1 modifier from a 12 stat doesn't help...

I use a lot of tactical maneuvering with squads. Have one provide supressing fire while another flanks..stuff like that. Lately I've come to love the role of snipers, much to the despair of my players...*cackle* I also tend to mix weapons for my troopers, some have the standard Blastech E-11 rifle while there might be some with the Blastech T-21 light repeating blaster like the sandtroopers in ANH.

If the players get too cocky, then I take a hint from ESB and have a squad show up and start putting together an E-Web...

Overall my strategy is sound, since my players think and choose their battles, plus if they actually come up with a plan that wins out...hey, there's that XP bonus.

One thing I've kinda wondered about is if the Stormtroopers have 10's...gotta wonder about those Rebels on the Tantive IV at the beginning of ANH, since the stormtroopers basically bantha rolled right over them...*cackle* Rebel scum!!

DM

 

Thats a good way to handle it.

 

Well let's not forget that the stormtroopers were NOT merrily blasted away in the movies for the most part.

* In the opening scene with the Tantive five the stormtroopers mow down the Rebel alliance forces guarding princess Leia without difficulty.

They suffer two deceased soldiery in a direct assault and Vader looks VERY displeased they lost that many. My guess is facing the Jawas they lost nothing which may not be importat but hey.

* Vader surounds himself with Stormtroopers in the Hoth assault and while you may chalk that up to Vader knowing not a thing can hurt him the fact remains they were the first through the doors and seemed unhindered.

* A bunch of teddy bears wipe out the stormtroopers....okay maybe on this end but let's not forget that we didn't ever see this "entire legion" of troops. My guess is that the Emperor was expecting an entire army of rebel soldiery and they simply didn't dispatch reinforcements.

Much like the TIE fighters on the death star

The reason the stormtroopers were probably blasted so easily for the most part in the first movie is likely the characters had the drop on them 9/10

* Surprise on the Millenieum Falcon
* Surprise in the detention level
* Cover and no idea how many were down the Hall in the Detention level fire fight which they "won" after a fashion
* Han suddenly attacking and charging with no idea how many Rebels there were they retreated to the obviously large number of troops for reinforcements
* The firefights with Luke for the most part have been extremely nasty with the blasts almost taking them out

Probably moreso than the average man BY FAR in their skill and dexterity

(It was grossly stupid but again you've got to wonder what the heck rebels are doing in the largest weapon station in the galaxy)

Confusion mostly hurts the Stormtroopers and otherwise my guess is they are dangerous to the extreme

 

I've boosted their attributes a little to reflect the fact they are trained, elite soliers (at least theoretically), giving them a 13 Dex and 12 Con that improves their Defense, their Attack Bonus and their Wounds (they drop a little harder this way, but they still are no match for mid-level PCs).

As Metus said above, a good challenge is easy to set up for the PCs when you emphasize on tactics. I tend to play a lot with the PCs' surroundings and I am not above a barrage fire to pin them down while some other troops flank them.
I am not above ruling that they take a number of automatic hits when the fire is really too heavy and they still go under fire thinking 'the STs are miserable next to me and they only hit me on a 20 and it won't even hurt much because they'll have a hard time scoring a critical hit'. The one exception being a Jedi wise enough to move fast enough not to stay a target for long.

But more than having the STs be a challenge to fight, I find it exquisitely funny to have the PCs face the consequences of their taking down the troops while they could have done otherwise. When the law is against them and there's an entire planet after them, even lvl 15+ PCs do have to take care where they tread and have dirty enough odds against them that they won't mop up the floor with the next group of STs they encounter without an excellent reason to do so.

 

Thats a good idea. Thanks.

 

The thing that bugs me about the stromtrooper stats is not that they are low but that their class is listed as thug, when they are professional soldiers. The soldier class would be much more appropriate for someone who has undergone the training that one needs to go through to become a stromtrooper.

 

STs with 5 feats ??? (if they become Soldiers that's what they get, right ?)

 

That sounds about right. It would go a long way towards making them a more formidable opponent as well.

 

Though from a certain point of view I can agree with stormtroopers being of the soldier class, since that IS what they are. However from a gameplay point of view that is dangerously making them powerful, especially against low-level or newly created characters. I can see conforming once your players get up in levels allowing stormtroopers to become less like cannon fodder though.

I can wipe my players out now who are level 5, without the addition of vitality points and extra feats for my "thugs". Heck they cringe when I start playing sinister music and reveal my latest villian. Those battles usually last a good two or three hours.

DM

 

I scared the crud out of my players with just 8 STs with out changing them. All of the players were level 6+.

 

Cool, how did you manage that? My players tend to tear through them like they are nothing. That is why I never send less than 10 agaist them once the party has passed level 3.

 

Really simple. As they were going through the place they were at I'd randomly mention that they saw 8 STs going by. Well I did this so often that by the time they did get in trouble with the STs they figured there was way to many back ups near by/in route for it to be a good idea to stick around.