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  1. In Memory of LAJ_FETT: Please share your remembrances and condolences HERE

Straight Answers - The ExU's Rebuttal Thread

Discussion in 'Star Wars Community' started by quietlunatic, May 31, 2002.

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  1. quietlunatic

    quietlunatic Jedi Youngling star 3

    Registered:
    Oct 13, 2001
    Note to Administrators/Moderators - The following thread is an offshoot of the ExU created due to the persistent, irritating, and extremely angering actions of one BitterPower and possibly more to come [May 02 types]. I have attempted to contact the higher-ups, but none were available for reply at this time. Therefore, I post, knowing that this effort may be in vain.

    So, inquisitive users! You've not much time to read through our massive thread, and want "straight answers"? You want all our collected arguments in one place, you say? Well, here goes. Just remember, BitterPower, you asked for it.

    Darth_Holliday:

    The thing that bothers me most is this...the first thing EU crusaders jump to is saying that we haven't read the books.

    How arrogant is that? If you don't like the EU, the only explanation is that you haven't read it? Huh? I guess it's impossible to conceive that maybe someone just didn't like it. Yeah, it's possible to be a SW fan and not like the EU. Shocking.

    Oooh...and let me guess...we just haven't read the "right" EU books, and you've got some wonderful recommended literature for us. Or maybe...come back to the EU, it's changed, honest...it's changed, baby...it won't abuse you no more....just give it one more chance! Would this be the new EU with the giant third long-lost son of Palpatine with lightsabers embedded throughout his body? Or is it the new Imperial copy of Darth Vader who wears a breathing mask? Or the newest race of apostrophe-laden aliens who exist "outside the Force" and come from "beyond the Outer Rim"?

    As others have pointed out, we HAVE read the books. A lot of them. At least most of us who intensely dislike the EU. Why else would we complain about it? Just for the heck of it? Don't believe me? I have a whole section in my closet full of EU books that I bought back in the early ninteties. I've never counted them, but there's got to be at least twenty novels, plus some comics. Yeah, I wasted my money on it. And I kept doing it for a while. It's a pain known by many. I did ti for the same reason everyone did--there was no new Star Wars at the time and everybody wanted more. Most of us here became disillusioned with the EU at some point.

    Who are you to pronounce that we haven't read the EU? Are you omniscient? And yeah...it's full of crappy mistakes and contradictions. The continuity "fixes" are NOT wonderful exercises in logic...they're like trying to hold together a broken-down automobile with duct tape. The EU is full of lameness beyond belief. There are long lists of grievances, but you know what? We don't have to re-state them on the spot just because someone demands to know why we don't like the EU as much as he/she does. Read the thread if you really want to know. Believe me, you haven't said anything that hasn't been said before. Too long for your tastes? Sorry...it is a long thread. I don't want to search through it any more than you do, so I'm not going to link to a specific page. Maybe you should go to SOTJ and see the reasons people dislike the EU there if you want a real quick answer. But generally:

    1) It undermines events, characters, and concepts from the films.

    e.g. Luke turning to the Dark Side, Boba Fett coming back from the dead, Emperor Palpatine coming back from the dead, the Empire going on for twenty years after Palpatine's death, Anakin's sacrifice and the entire prophecy being essentially meaningless, and so on.

    2) It introduces concepts that don't belong in the GFFA.

    e.g. aliens immune to the Force like the Yuuzhan Vong, Force/Jedi 'get out of jail free cards' like ysalamiri or lightsaber-proof armor, soul transfers, Emperor's Hands, etc.

    3) It is bland, repetitive science fiction not deserving of the title STAR WARS.

    e.g. What's the difference, honestly, between the Black Fleet Crisis, the Ssi-Ruuk invasion, the invasion of the long-lost Thrawn fleet, and the Yuuzhan Vong invasion? Ask yourself how many EU works have the word dark in the title? (Here's a hint...it's in the twenties).

    4) It introduces
     
  2. Fire_Light

    Fire_Light Jedi Grand Master star 5

    Registered:
    Mar 24, 2002
    The NJO is still about 18-19 books long. You might want to change that in your post.
     
  3. foxbatkllr

    foxbatkllr Jedi Knight star 6

    Registered:
    Jul 27, 2001
    Superb post. Amen brotha! Best...post...ever!
     
  4. Leto II

    Leto II Jedi Padawan star 6

    Registered:
    Jan 23, 2000
    3) It is bland, repetitive science fiction not deserving of the title STAR WARS.

    Well, ah...many film critics (and hard-SF authors who felt their grazing-land threatened) levelled the exact same criticisms against Lucas concerning the films. And still do. Generic, rehashed genre tropes -- you can't really swing a dead aardvark without hitting against one of these accusations.
     
  5. Lord_Coras

    Lord_Coras Jedi Knight star 5

    Registered:
    Oct 26, 2001
    I worship thee.
     
  6. QuiGonTim

    QuiGonTim Jedi Padawan star 4

    Registered:
    Jan 29, 2002
  7. quietlunatic

    quietlunatic Jedi Youngling star 3

    Registered:
    Oct 13, 2001
    I see, Fire_Light. That's news to me.

    Thanks for your feedback, guys. Other people will be posting answers to typical questions asked on the ExU thread. This is a precautionary measure to prevent the ExU thread from degenerating into an argument fest like we saw today. :)
     
  8. Lord_Coras

    Lord_Coras Jedi Knight star 5

    Registered:
    Oct 26, 2001
    You you mind if I posted a link to this thread in my sig?
     
  9. quietlunatic

    quietlunatic Jedi Youngling star 3

    Registered:
    Oct 13, 2001
    Would I mind? I guess not.

    But, keep in mind, some of this content is Darth_Holliday's (as an aside - the final chapter of EUpisode III is online); you might want to PM him about it.

    However, you must promise not to use it in arguments or what not with EUers. I'll not turn this into a big huge flame war; I had enough trouble today. This is just a place for ExUers to make their viewpoints known, be it you, me, or Darth_Holliday.

    Don't give in to hate, guys. Be strong.
     
  10. VadersLaMent

    VadersLaMent Chosen One star 10

    Registered:
    Apr 3, 2002
    The only EU I liked was Dark Empire and Tales of the Jedi.

    I do agree however that DE cheapens Darth Vader's return and destruction of Palpatine in ROTJ. The only way to SORT OF explain it away is to notice a parallel between Vader conquering the Darkside from within, and then Luke doing the same.

    Tales was nice except for a few thing like making a weak connection with the OT by having the rising Sith "Discovering another use" for carbonite by freezing prisoners in it.

    If your gonna write EU you do not have to referance nor make some connection to the OT, its NOT needed. Just write your story.

    Alot of people praise Zahn. I do not. I read the whole first trilogy. Heres another example of what not to do:A scene near the beginning has Luke un-confident about using the Force to move a large mechanical object to block a door because,"He remebers back on Dagobah that he failed to move the X-wing."(Not an exact quote).

    Um.....After ESB, Luke goes on to survive a confrontation with the two most powerfull villains ever. And somehow 5 years later he is reverted back to his ESB days and faulters. Bad, bad, bad.

    At least in DE he knocked over an AT-AT with one hand. Thats better, much better.

    I could go on but I think you covered anything else I can come up with. I clicked on this thread and said, "Whoa!".

    Good job btw.
     
  11. quietlunatic

    quietlunatic Jedi Youngling star 3

    Registered:
    Oct 13, 2001
    VadersLaMent: Thank you. Tales of the Jedi was good, except for the overblown force powers. It is odd considering how the ancient Sith could supernova stars, yet the most powerful Sith ever (hopefully the Movies' Sith) couldn't do anything of the sort. It'd kind of, um, eliminate any chance whatsoever the Rebellion had. If such powers were available to Palpatine, how come he didn't go and blind all the Jedi to the Force?

    Just a thought.

    EDIT - BTW, this is Darth_Holliday's work as well. He deserves the great majority of the praise and credit.
     
  12. VadersLaMent

    VadersLaMent Chosen One star 10

    Registered:
    Apr 3, 2002
    Your welcome and good job to Darth_Holliday as well then.

    Just a side note: I have the WEG D6 RPG bok for DE. I took a look at the Force rules for telekinesis. Now follow me here:

    For the number of dice Palpatine would roll, if he rolled all 6s on the D6, he would be able to lift....625,000,000 TONS!?

    Er.....
     
  13. LoyalJedi

    LoyalJedi Jedi Grand Master star 5

    Registered:
    May 22, 2002
    An excellent and well thought out post. Although, I am a newby to the boards, I have a fairly large knowledge of starwars and the first time I read an EU novel, I threw it down in disgust because of how contrived and ridiculous it was. Truly, this has been proven.
     
  14. quietlunatic

    quietlunatic Jedi Youngling star 3

    Registered:
    Oct 13, 2001
    Wow, VadersLaMent, it's odd that he can't just lift a 225, maybe 300 pound man (if you count the armor and life support systems). Don't get me wrong, I like some EU based games (Jedi Outcast Rocks!) and realize that some overblown-ness is necessary (how else could Kyle Katarn choke stormtroopers and drop them off ledges if he's "light side"?), Yoda barely being able to lift an X-Wing compared to Palpatine's world-benching force powers is an incredible disparity.

    LoyalJedi, this thread is partially restating the ExU thread's opinion (Darth_Holliday) and my own thoughts. I myself didn't reject the EU until very recently, being instantly drawn to anything Star Wars.

    Everything is in the eye of the beholder, though, and we must continue to respect those who look upon the SW galaxy with their own eyes.
     
  15. SkottASkywalker

    SkottASkywalker Jedi Padawan star 4

    Registered:
    Jan 3, 2002
    I enjoy all forms of STAR WARS, but I also understand each form's place in the STAR WARS universe. The EU, especially that which takes place after RETURN OF THE JEDI, is not the STAR WARS that is Lucas' vision. It doesn't seem as if that is understood or accepted or both by some fans. I think they miss or dismiss the point(s) of the movies and the point(s) of Lucas' vision of STAR WARS.
     
  16. VadersLaMent

    VadersLaMent Chosen One star 10

    Registered:
    Apr 3, 2002
    LOL, the dice rolling thing was not easily noticed until I started adding it up just to see what it would come to.

    Other EU advice:
    Every story does not have to be galaxy spanning, but "Bigger than life" is an aura that must be present to some extent.

    If you don't know how to stay true when playing in someone else's universe, do the rest of us a favor and don't. Larry Niven's Man-Kzin war series:If they would have not mentioned the names of the other authors allowed to write for this series, I would not have known the differance, they stayed true to his universe. Why can't most SW authors?

    Do not try to make your new villain seem better by making already existing ones less than what has already been established. In order for Xixor to look more dangerous, Vader is made to look like nothing more than a dumb guy with a sword. The idea of Palpatine using Xixor to play with Vader is not the way to make your villain look better.
    Palpatine and Vader pick at each other(think of some of the lines they exchange in ROTJ). Palpatine KNOWS Vader is powerful, and despite any control he may have over Vader, he is not going to piss him off by "playing" with him, you might not be Emporer for very long if you piss off the wrong guy.

    Do not succumb to Star Trek technobabble. In one paragraph in ANH, we get an explanation of Repulsolift technology, then the story keeps going. This is Space Opera, not science fiction.

    Thou shalt provide exiting action, tense moments and throw in a surprise or two.

    Thou shalt not reduce the Force to tricks(Anderson's checking for Force potential with some neck touch that sent Luke across a room).

    SW is for romance not sex(Xixor's pheramones).

    Thou shalt not ripp off a character just because the one you wanted was not available. Dash Rendar........??????????
    I like the Outrider, but why not make up a cool new unique character of your own instead of using Han Solo under the name "Dash"?

    Thats all for now.

    Edit:spelled a few things wrong, please pardon.
     
  17. Genghis12

    Genghis12 Manager Emeritus star 6 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

    Registered:
    Nov 18, 1999
    Skott...
    "The EU, especially that which takes place after RETURN OF THE JEDI, is not the STAR WARS that is Lucas' vision. It doesn't seem as if that is understood or accepted or both by some fans. I think they miss or dismiss the point(s) of the movies and the point(s) of Lucas' vision of STAR WARS."

    //rolleyes.gif Gee, way to try and diminish the opinions of those you disagree with. Could it actually be that the EU, especially that which takes place after RETURN OF THE JEDI is[/i] the STAR WARS that is Lucas' vision. And that it is understood or accepted or both by some fans. That they completely 100% get the point(S) of the movies and the point(s) of Lucas' vision of STAR WARS, and see that the EU gets it/them as well.

    All you had to do is say that you don't think the EU captures what you perceive Lucas' vision to be. And you wouldn't be baselessly flaming EU fans out there or misrepresenting them as simply "not getting it." There's better ways to make a point than that. [face_plain]
     
  18. quietlunatic

    quietlunatic Jedi Youngling star 3

    Registered:
    Oct 13, 2001
    Must we again make our views clear, Genghis? We respect your viewpoint. We expect nothing less from you. However, who of us is to say that we are the definitive, be all, end all of Star Wars?

    George Lucas. That's who. We all might give our own opinions; purist and completist alike, but the only way a true resolution can be reached is if the actual VIP George Lucas posts something to that effect on these boards, or writes it on the official SW website.

    In the meantime, let us shed verbal semantics. I am sure no offense is intended for you or any of the ExU or EUDF and none should be taken. Please, let us devote our effort towards diffusing potential crises (the purpose of this thread is to refer trolls/"aggressive questioners" to prevent them from muddling up the ExU). He'll learn. In the meantime, we must keep cool heads in these weeks of flame and crisis.
     
  19. starwarsfannumber1

    starwarsfannumber1 Jedi Master star 2

    Registered:
    May 6, 2002
    I'll make one remark then get off your thread. You said that Zahn's novels defeated the whole point of the Galactic Civil War by reintroducing the Empire. Excuse me, but you obviously didn't pay attention everytime the Rebel Alliance members were called Rebels. The Empire dominated the entire galaxy, they constantly hounded the Rebels through all three movies, and the only reason they managed to desstroy the Death Star 1 was because of the design flaw and the second one because the arrogant Emporer led a fleet to a half-completed Death Star unable to defend itself against a few star fighters. Did you think because the Emporer died his legions of devoted/brainwashed minions would just disappear? I doubt it and obviously so did the millions of others that read Zahn's trilogy. If you think the writing of the EU is crappy well that's your opinion. I don't like all of EU writing but I still enjoy it. You people seem to follow a common thought that all EUers are overly critical and should just sit back and enjoy the movies. I agree, some people are overly critical, but then you also fall into that catagory. I find some errors too and I rant about them on theForce forums and other sites, but I choose to still enjoy the books. You refer to yourselves as disaffected, former EUers, well guess what I was once like you. I ignored some continuity problems up until NJO. I was half way through Vector Prime ( first book of the NJO for those who don't know) and I thought, " Geeze this stuff SUCKS. Who is this Salvatore guy and where did they Del Ray dig him up! I'll stick hot metal rods in my eyes before I read another NJO book!" Then I went looking for somewhere to vent my frustrations. I made the mistake of getting the NJO fanpage, and telling the fans there that NJO was the worst peice of crap ever written ( basically) and that it not screwed up the other books, the writing was terrible. You know what they told me? The same thing I'm telling you. Sit back, relax, and try to enjoy! Njo is to long and it still bothers me on some points, but it has gotten better. Your absoulutly right on one aspect of your arguement. Lucas is the final authority on all things SW. Do you think the EU would even be there if he dissaproved of it? I say, " HELL NO." He gave the authors of the NJO a five hundred page book when they decided to make NJO and told them to stick to what he had made up. He told KJA to put certian material into the JAT. You don't like the fact that EU exists and don't think it stays true to Lucas's vision of SW? Like I said before it wouldn't be there if it didn't conform to his vision so get over it.
     
  20. Sturm Antilles

    Sturm Antilles Former Manager star 6

    Registered:
    Jun 22, 2000
    zZzZzZzZ

    Sturm's Greatest Mysteries in Life Series # 384 : Wondering how and why someone can hate something so much and yet still spend so much time talking about it ( certain TPM bashers, EU bashers... )
     
  21. quietlunatic

    quietlunatic Jedi Youngling star 3

    Registered:
    Oct 13, 2001
    starwarsfannumber1: Perhaps my section about mythology was mysteriously lost (edited?) out. The ExU views Star Wars as a myth, not as a weekly TV show.

    "Fifteen years ago I set out to make a film for a generation growing up without fairy tales. Star Wars was my own elaborate fantasy, but its poplarity has gone beyond anything even I had imagined. In the years to come, I hope that you, your children, and your children's children will enjoy experiencing this saga as much as I have."
    -George Lucas, Star Wars Trilogy Boxed Set

    In RotJ, the destruction of Darth Sidious and Darth Vader, akin to the destruction of the One Ring, in a fantasy world, spells doom for his minions. (The Nayzgl perish. The men of Gondor prevail.) With Star Wars as an elaborate (you could turn our word back against us - "crappy") fantasy, would you not expect the same thing?

    Or perhaps, a continual parade of enemies. That reminds me of another line in fantasy tales...Happily Ever After. Does that ever appear in the EU? If the EU is a logical continuation of a fantasy series, why does it lack some of the features thereof?

    Sturm: If you were constantly asked by numerous persons to defend your viewpoint again, and again, and again, would you not have some manner of reactive measure? So laugh it up, Sir Sturm, for you do not sidetrack humor threads into pointless debate. This exists for others that do. It is extremely irritating. I know not how it is in the EUDF, but just dealing with the weekly May 02 troll for an average of over a day is trying the ExU's patience. You have the power of the "ban" button, we have just the power of the posted word to repel the trolls. As Bib's signature says, "YOU[meaning trolls, not people in general]...CANNOT...PASS!" I suppose that is what this thread is for.

    Though the length of these posts is amusing, might I point out that Timetales is longer? ;)
     
  22. Sturm Antilles

    Sturm Antilles Former Manager star 6

    Registered:
    Jun 22, 2000
    zzzZZZzzzZZZzzzZZZ
     
  23. quietlunatic

    quietlunatic Jedi Youngling star 3

    Registered:
    Oct 13, 2001
    Yes sir! Laugh it up! Or, perhaps, read through it first!

    Perhaps I'll go to Lit and do that "zzZ" thing a few times.
     
  24. Sturm Antilles

    Sturm Antilles Former Manager star 6

    Registered:
    Jun 22, 2000
  25. quietlunatic

    quietlunatic Jedi Youngling star 3

    Registered:
    Oct 13, 2001
    I don't get it. :cool:
     
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