Strength v. Power

This topic seems to be a recurring theme in a lot of my theorizing on the saga as of late, so I thought I'd bring it up for discussion on it's own.

What does the SW Saga have to say about strength and power? What does each mean? Which is more valuable?

It's interesting to me that, of the big players in the central story of the Saga, the least powerful is (in my opinion) the strongest. Basically, you have Anakin, Luke, Palpatine, Yoda, and Obi-Wan... Chosen One, Son of Suns, Head Sith, Head Jedi, and... this other Jedi In honesty, Obi-Wan is powerful but can't touch the raw power these other guys have. Yet I would definitely argue that he is the strongest of any of them.

I don't think the power rankings are much in question. So here's my evaluation of the strength tests of each of these characters:


Palpatine: Patient, that's for sure, but falls prey to his own arrogance in a big way. Besides, anyone who is a Dark Sider is weak in the sense that they've given in to its seductive power. And, as we know, the Dark Side dominates you, not the other way around.

Yoda: He endures quite a bit, that's true. But in the end, he has removed himself from his fears by staying on Dagobah rather than ever having to put himself in danger. I think his greatest fear is Palpatine, and Yoda keeps his distance from him. Yoda's no pushover in strength, but he's not the strongest.

Anakin: It's pretty fair to say he fails almost every test of strength he's given, save for his final one. Anakin wants to be the most powerful person ever, and he is. But the irony of him ending up as subservient to his own weaknesses and other's wills, to me, shows that strength beats out raw power.

Obi-Wan: In my eyes, there is no questioning Kenobi's strength. He takes on everything that is thrown at him, no matter how incredibly, ridiculously difficult it is. I don't think I need to explain to anyone, even anyone who has zero clue about RotS, that Obi-Wan has, evidently, been through hell. But to me what really solidifies his strength is that, in the end, he not only faces but actually seeks out his greatest fear- Vader. And then he wins. He gives Vader no satisfaction whatsoever, and he also shows Luke what the true heart of a Jedi should be.

Luke: We see him build his strength throughout. He gives a grand showing, and in the end, follows Obi-Wan's example by facing Vader and by refusing to give in to his anger, no matter what. In Luke, we see the potential for the balance between great power and great strength. I say potential, and it's a bit unfair. He has proven himself, but still has not been through nearly the trials that Obi-Wan has. I could forsee him in a few decades having Obi-Wan's strength and Anakin's power, though.


...all right, what say you?

-sj loves kevin spacey

 

This is an interesting idea, no doubt about it...

I think that 'strength' needs to be defined a bit more in this context for me. It seems like you are talking mostly about willpower, or mental strength-- the strength to go on after all seems lost, the ability to do not what you want to do, but what must be done. That said...

I have to agree... Palpatine and Vader are weak and seduced by the Dark Side. Anakin doesn't have the strength to master his own power, which is why he falls prey to it. And it is true that Yoda does not seem to take the initiative very often, despite his involvement at the end of Attack of the Clones.

As for Obi-Wan and Luke... yes, Obi-Wan has been through hell, and it makes him stronger, not weaker. Luke was not told early that he had lots of power, so he is humble. And likewise he has been through more than most of us could handle, but it ends up giving him the strength to 'lend' to his father... which both saves him and ends the Empire.

 

Yes, you are on target with what I mean by "strength". I define it at fortitude of character, not giving in to the things you know are wrong, having the guts to stand up for things you think are right.


-sj loves kevin spacey

 

Obi-Wan also had patience. He waited quite a long time on the "dust-ball" called Tatooine to see Luke raise up.
He hid himself on the very planet Vader would NEVER turn to - because he had once there been a slave there and had lost his mother there.

 

Yes, he definitely had that. It's practicle, but I think his isolation is also kind of a self-imposed exhile (well, not entirely self-imposed). But he had to be aware that this kind of isolation would make him more vulnerable to the dangerous thoughts and such that I'm sure he's battling with. Being patient and vigilant all those years required strength as well.

-sj loves kevin spacey

 

Very interesting topic and your breakdown is good.

However, I think you're short changing Yoda. I don't know of any spoilers from E3 so I'll stay away from that, but I highly doubt that Yoda "fears" Palpatine.

I think Yoda and Obi-Wan did the exact same thing after E3 and going into E4. They surivived so that they could live until the day when they could train Luke and prepare him to save the universe.

And while Obi-Wan did indeed go through hell, Yoda's 800 years old. Think maybe he's been through some stuff?

I agree with what you've said about the others, but Yoda has gotta be up there in terms of both strength and power.

 

It is a common occurrence for people to mistake power and strength as the same, or as being directly related. As others have said before, strength is defined as having durability or the ability to resist strain. Power, on the other hand, is something that can used as both a generalization for all of the skills a person may posses or a single skill (i.e. Such and such has great power of concentration, etc), implying they do one or all effectively.

 

I agree about Obi-Wan. He may not be as strong in The Force as Yoda, Mace, or Sidious, or even Dooku, but he has an unwavering dedication to the Jedi Order. He accepts everything he has to do with a dry wit, but an open mind and the ability to succeed despite the odds.

 

And yet . . . Obi-Wan wanted Luke to kill Vader. And could not see that good still reside within the Sith apprentice - unlike Luke. Why is that? Was there a small weakness that allowed Obi-Wan to retain his blindness in regard to Anakin/Vader's character? A blindness that had originated in TPM and he had maintained even after death in ROTJ?

 

I'd put Palpatine up there at the top in terms of sheer power, but only after Vader gets put in the suit, remember he isn't as mobile as before so no lightsabre virtuosity and he can't use Force Lightning.

I think for most of the OT, the fear Vader strikes into the hearts of people comes from what he MIGHT do to them, they only see his great physical strength and ability to Force Choke with the implication that he could do much worse. In reality, what could he really do?

If the Jedi were still knocking around, Vader would be relatively weak and easy to defeat. Once he's in the suit, he's powerful through lack of opposition. For me, this is the source of most of my pity for Vader, the Dark Side made him weak but he still views it as the way to ultimate power.

Yoda and Obi-Wan value strength over power, clearly, but it is interesting that Obi-Wan is the one who insists on Luke's training. Yoda is, perhaps understandably, wary of training someone else who is potentially so powerful in either side of the Force. His underconfidence is his weakness

 

Hmmm... in answer to what RamRod said, I personally beleive (even if it's not said anywhere) that Obi-Wan had tried more than once to turn Anakin back to the Light Side, and failed repeatedly. I think this may be something Anakin won't listen to Obi-Wan about, but he will eventually listen to his son about, if said son beleives in him and puts his life on the line in that belief.

 

Well some manager loced my other topic and said it had to do with this, from what i read it kinda does but not really, here is what i put:

 

Who said anything about the Chosen One being the most powerful? He's supposed to bring balance to the Force, that's all. Now Anakin has massive potential with a midi-count as high as Yoda's, but it doesn't mean he's the strongest. As I pointed out in your thread it's Strength vs. Power vs. Potential.

Anakin played off his emotions most of the time, which made him exceptionally better in my opinion.

 

Well i know many people who watch starwars and say when in dicussion of the best jedi say, anakin is the best beacuse he is the chosen one... just saying how its not that way, just like you pointed out..

 

Exactly. too many anakin fanboys think that he can do anything, beat anyone, and only lost because obi-wan cheated. He was meant to bring balance to the Force, which he did. Not to be superman and dominate everyone.

I think Anakin is afraid of Sidious. To me, when Sid shocked Mace, Anakin seemed to succumb pretty quick to him. Now, there is some talk of Palps using the Force to sway him, but unless he was shaken with fear, Anakin wouldnt be weak minded enough to be open to that.

Also its like a no turning back thing. When he cut off Mace's arm, and Mace got killed, it was over. He betrayed his kind, and would never be able to rejoin them.