Discussion in 'Attack of the Clones' started by LeavingTashiStation, Jun 4, 2002.
Yeah Padme would cripple Mary Jane Watson any day of the week.
I don't wanna get too far off topic here...but being an artist...I just wanna say this...The world of art has been dominated by males since, well...Babylon! (Let's play the "name three female artists from the Renaissance" game) And I'm not saying that's negative or "bad," it's just the way it was. Women's roles were different then. There just wasn't a chance for women to be an independent artist then. So I'm not slagging off the male artists, I love the work of many many male artists...just the fact that it makes me a little sad that the female artists who practiced in secrecy, their work is lost. But anyway..so of course the female body is used more often to show beauty and form. Nothing wrong with that..but again, it's not THAT that botheres me..it's there's not equal time! Michelangelo's "David", okay, there's one...
Everyone to their own opinion, but I think the idealised male body is just as beautiful in shape and form as the idealised female body.
I agree the ideal female body is way more attractive.
also, for the record, I am a writer, and if I ever manage to get a movie made out of one of my stories, I will not only give old Georgey-boy a run for his money, but you will see a great balance between strong male and female leads.
"Except that Obi-Wan and Anakin are not portrayed nearly as sexually as Padme is."
How do you figure? I think that's in your mind. I think that some women get mad and or jealous when they see attractive women in movies and never aknowledge that they put guys that women find attractive in them as well.
No no..you missed my point. First of all, women aren't jealous of another woman they don't find attractive. (especially if she's with a guy the other woman has no desire for) It's when she's with the guy you want, that's when the jealousy comes in. That's true for anyone I would think.
I just do not see one attractive thing about her. And that's okay. However, I do find ObiWan, Jango, and formerly, QuiGon very attractive. It's all subjective...different for each person.
Stronger women? [face_shocked] You've got to be kidding me. The women of Star Wars are anything but weak. I've idolized Padme since TPM came out. Yes, her looks make her appealing, but that's not why I idolize her. She was intelligent and mature enough to become the RULER of her planet at 14 years of age. That same intelligence enabled her to save her entire planet from certain doom. Her wit and compassion won her the support of many senators, and is the main reason why the other senators allowed for Chancellor Palpatine to be given emergency powers. (Jar Jar was speaking on her behalf) She doesn't wish to cower and hide from the people that want her dead, but instead seek them out. She doesn't take any nonsense from Anakin, she's completely in control of almost every situation, she's got perfect aim, and she knows how to take care of herself. By the Nexu clawing her, it shows her human side. These are very admirable qualities
What would you have her do to become stronger? In Ep3, she will most likely have to give up her children, do you know how much strength that will take?
And also, I'd just like to say that just because a character is 'hot', doesn't mean they can't be heroines. As it is, Padme is very attractive, however that's not something she controls. Her inner strength is what I admire, the character of Padme herself.
While the "damsel in distress" portrayal happens, it is also not the only way one can portray a woman.
The power of the media is such that it can influence the way things are perceived. That is the argument that is being brought forth here. If you have a choice as to how to portray someone, why not show the one with more positive re-enforcement.
Take for example Ripley from Aliens. It would have been easy for James Cameron to portray her as a damsel-in-distress. But he didn't. and this was a atrong message for women and for men. Women were very capable.
The problem with movies like Spiderman was that while yes some woman do act that way, it perpetuated a perception that has been nurtured in many minds for many years. MaryJane could have easily been made a little bit more self-reliant and less needy. And her scene in the rain, while visually stunning was rather gratuitous. The problem was, in the case of Spiderman, MaryJane didn't really have a whole lot of redeeming qualities. Yes she was a nice girl as shown in the opening bus scene but nothing that stood out overall (in terms of character).
On the other hand with Padme, her beauty was besides the point. She was also a very capable and compassionate woman. She was definitely smarter than Anakin and a better leader too. Yes her outfit was slightly gratuitious in the arena scene but her redeeming qualities far outweighed that fact.
And as for her being attractive, there is nothing wrong with that since that wasn't the essence of her character.
Good point, and yes, the rain scene was gratuitous (which is why I liked it ). But you brought up one of my favorite characters of all time, Ripley. No matter how many times I see the Alien trilogy (Ressurection does NOT count), I am continually amazed by how strong she is, and never comes off as a "Man in a bra" (as Wendi Pini from Elfquest put it). She is tough, but only because she needs to be. She is also very motherly.
She has a very interseting progression through the movies, in the first, she is strong and smart, but gets ignored. In the second, she shows she is just as capable as trained marines (many of whom were women), and in the third, only one man in the whole movie has the same amount of cajones as her. She is a damn great woman.
I wasn't saying I wanted to see the damsel in distress, but I am not bothered by it at all. Plus, how often is the "oh, please help me, I can't take care of myself" woman shown these days? Not as often as before. But if you are saying that they should become the extreme exception, rather than the more common rule, then you have my complete agreement. I wish more women could be like Ripley.
AYABTU said: The CTHD characters you mentioned weren't intended to be role models either.
How do you know that? You're actually wrong. If you watch the DVD, Ang Lee talks about the oppression of women and how he wanted to show women in the forefront and strong in his movie.
And the fact that you refuse to see beauty in a 40-year old is a much greater travesty than Lucas casting a hot Natalie Portman.
Like I said, I don't think all of the main women in that movie were "soooo hot." If you see it that way fine. And I have no problem with GL casting Natalie (except for the fact that she shows little to no emotion in her delivery, but that's another story). This is not about her being cast, but rather the portrayalof Padme and the blatant sex gimmickery in the arena scene.
MINI-YODA said: While I loved Anakin's portryal that is a VERY interesting comment.
I never really thought of it, but that would have been pretty cool to have Anakin a bit more in the Jen Yu strain.
I guess the only thing is that with Jen, I never really saw a capacity for evil with her. She was more of a rebellious girl who did things that could be construed as unethical more for the thrill and the sense of freedom.
With Anakin, it was more of a sense of anger that drove him. Still, a bit more of the rebellious free spirit may have been an interesting exposition into the Anakin character.
I get the feeling that that aspect will be explored in EP3. In that movie I think it will be his rebellious, impetuous nature that will lead to his downfall.
Well, I think Jen Yu did have evil in her. She tried to battle Shu Lin to the death and even after Shu Lin calls it a draw, Jen cuts her nonetheless. She also repeatedly threatens Li Mu Bai's life (not that she could take him, but she clearly thinks she can). She does do things for fun, but clearly has a dark side.
I always had the sense that Jen was tetering on the brink of gretaness and disaster. You were never sure if she was going to turn good or bad. And in the end, she sort of rejects both, which to me was great since it was not cliche. I just wanted to get the same feeling from Anakin. He defintiely has his motivations (particularly anger, which is great), but I wanted to see even more rage in him. Like the old idea of him momentarily flipping out and trying to strike Obi Wan during a duel or action sequence. That would have been shocking.
VODSOCk said: This is the kind of topic where no one will ever agree totally. Everyone has a slightly different opinion about what is right or wrong here.
Oh you mean like Sidious=Palpatine. Lack of consensus is no reason to not have a discussion.
PADME BRA said: How do you figure? I think that's in your mind. I think that some women get mad and or jealous when they see attractive women in movies and never aknowledge that they put guys that women find attractive in them as well.
That is the typical knee-jerk reaction that perpetuates the problem. Yeah, right, she's jealous of Padme. Did you even read the post? Padme's torn shirt/perky nipples bit was clearly sex selling. That was the only point. If Obi Wan was fighting Jango in the rain and suddenly tumbled on the ground then got up, ripped off his robe and tunic, leaving him bare-chested in the rain and continued the fight like that, what would you think? It would be gratiutious and sounds like something from the Simpsons. That's how Padme was used. That's the point. Women are consistently used in that manner in movies. Men are not. Being "good looking" is not the point.
Again, if you do not realize this when watching the film, that's fine. But telling someone who makes a coherent, thought-out argument, "it's all in your mind (waving hand)" is: 1) not an argument and 2) patronizing. I was not thinking about these issues when I watched AOTC but after reading the author's original post, I understand.
"LeavingTashiStation, you're not one of those trashy journalists or something are you?"
Sorry, no. Just a student.
I am glad that a thread like this is getting so much attention. I'm also glad that many of you recognise that the media does have an influence on society. Its because of this influence, and the influence of Star Wars itself that would be nice to see more positive images in the films.
Actually, and after that great post,I hate to say it, I really do. But I must. I have to correct one thing you said.
It should have been if Jango/Tem got HIS armor and shirt ripped off and fought ObiWan in the rain...yes, now THAT would be sexy!!
Green, I never said that there was no nead or reason to discuss it, just that there is no right or wrong answer. Believe me, I have been dragged through the mud on similar topics before. I worked on a farm one summer with a bunch of feminists, and was attacked for every comment I made that wasn't purely PC. And being someone who won't just leave the hornet's nest alone, we got into some very heated discussions. I only stopped talking to them when one of them said that me not giving one of the other girl's a ride home the night before because I didn't have time to go out of my way, she said the only reason she was pissed at me was because I was a male. SHe hated the usual "gender roles", but was angry at me for not playing the hero. There is no winning with some people.
And for the record, the next time that girl needed a ride, I was happy to do it because I had time, and I became pretty good freinds with her. We also got into heated discussions, but always becasue we had differing opinions and motives, not because one was male, or female, or we wanted to get at each other. And if I ever meet anyone like her again, I will probably try to marry her, she was sharp, smart, opinionated (in a good way), and quite frankly, she was hot.
I think that it's a bit confusing and stupid that everyone is complaining about Padme showing some skin and her arena outfit showing her nipples and being torn from the midriff and not have any problems with the nightmare scene where Anakin is naked underneath the bedsheets and playing with himself.
What kind of society are we living in?
EDIT: Okay, he wasn't actually playing with himself when he's having the nightmare but that's what it looks like in the movie.
Whoa..how do you know he was naked?
lol That was a funny response Autumn.
WHat am I wearing right now?
Ok, so I'm a bit rusty on my psychic skills.
You want stronger women? How about the strongest...
Yeah, but see, the difference is, he didn't show anything that he wouldn't show walking around in public, so big deal. Now if we saw some hint of something under a silk white sheet...then I might see a good comparison. Padme's tight white shirt...Anakin's silky white sheet.
Why is it that showing a little of what is under the clothing is such a bad thing? Why is it that the same girl who has no problem being seen in a bikini, will freak if someone sees her in her underwear? I understand modesty, I'm quite modest myself, but if a girl wears a light shirt with no bra, hell, if she is cool with it, why can't other people be?
"Why is it that showing a little of what is under the clothing is such a bad thing? Why is it that the same girl who has no problem being seen in a bikini, will freak if someone sees her in her underwear? I understand modesty, I'm quite modest myself, but if a girl wears a light shirt with no bra, hell, if she is cool with it, why can't other people be?"
By itself it isn't a bad thing. Girls should be comfortable with their sexuality. Thing is, we tend to only see one representation of sexuality on screen. That's my point. You don't have to do away with Padme. Just represent some other types of women while you're at it.
I don't believe she was showing anything females don't show in public, I see females all the time purposely wearing half shirts and hip hugger jeans to show off their bellies.
And there is nothing wrong with it. People are just to quick to criticize this kind of thing. Were any other women in the movie scantily clad? No.
And at any rate, the middrift hasn't been "taboo" since like the 50's. And as far as Padme wearing a tight shirt? I know very few men, and many women, who dress like this.
Want to see a broader spectrum of women represented? Go write a movie.