Stronger Women Needed in AOTC

Discussion in 'Attack of the Clones' started by LeavingTashiStation, Jun 4, 2002.

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  1. WormieSaber Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Oct 22, 2000
    star 5
    I was actually talking to a friend of mine over the weekend about this very subject, but my point was that I think Lucas is exploring the different types of roles of women in the Prequels way more than he ever did in the original trilogy, and that is a definite plus to me. I like the idea that Lucas is representing a variety of different feminine roles: the strong, the fallen, the marytr, and the emotional.
  2. MINI_YODA Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Apr 25, 2002
    star 2
    Tashi

    I do see your point and while agree with it to some degree, I am also satsified with the representation in SW as a whole.

    While it would have been difficult to change the major characters and most of the secondary characters, it may have been possible to modify others.

    Captain Typho for example would have been a good character to change. Making her an Asian woman would have been a GREAT choice :) Also the Kaminoan Prime Minister.
    But thats' just opinion.

    Still SW if far better than others in it's positive portrayal of woman and minorities, and I don't think it gets enough credit for it.
  3. ami-padme Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Sep 19, 1999
    star 4
    You don't have to do away with Padme. Just represent some other types of women while you're at it.

    You don't believe there are other kinds of women represented in Star Wars? Shmi and Beru, for example, are so much like Padme to you?


    Star Wars has never had a great quantity of women, but I think the quality of the female characters (both in large and small roles) is more important, and on that score, I think GL has done quite well, particularly in the prequels.

  4. Rikalonius Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Jul 26, 2001
    star 3
    Autumn,

    As far as art goes, and I'm and artist too. Women artist tend to portray the female form quite a bit more than the male form. Actually I think men are more balanced in their work. Just my opinion. Women have a tendancy to draw other women. They normally create the strong characters they want women to become. My friend is a black female, and most of her artwork, both of us are amateur artists with real jobs, is paintings of other black women. Whether mythical or representive,ie mother nature or something like that.

    I draw both, men and women. The problem is I would be accused of objectifying women because most of the women I draw are more like pin-up girls. But the men I draw are now better, they are the strong super-hero types with big muscles. Point is she creates more images of women than I do.

    Men will make movies with strong female characters, but you'll rarely find women directors making movies about strong men. in fact in many cases their portrayals are quite sexist. I'm sure a number of women will rush to their defense claiming years of persecution. That is an argument for another time.
  5. LeavingTashiStation Jedi Padawan

    Member Since:
    Jun 4, 2002
  6. Jovieve Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    May 19, 2002
    star 4
    What a great thread. Good opinions everyone. But it should've been called Why No Stripped Men in AOTC thread (Temuera Morrison/Jango is a stud).

    (BTW - There are no 'ball breakers' only breakable balls)

    I agree, Natalie is very beautiful and to show that she is a 'woman' (a 24 year old senator and not a 14 year old Queen) GL had her showing a bunch of skin (and it also benefitted what GL considers his major audience). However, as usual I'm not in the demographic he expects - I am a grown woman - so I enjoy OT and PT for the stories as well as the gorgeous men. Seeing Ewan McGregor getting soaked to the skin in the Kamino fight made me wish some clothing had come off.

    And in reality I expected it. Why not? Luke was in his undies in the bacta tank (though we didn't really get a good look) and in his undershirt in the forests of Dagobah while training in ESB. I would have liked to have seen skin more often, but a man falling down in a fight and getting his shirt ripped has been ruined and made a laughable cliche by Captain Kirk in the original Star Trek.

    And I expected - and looked forward to - Obi-Wan losing some clothing in his prison scene. Why not? Han lost his coat and his shirt was pulled out and was quite disheveled after his torture scene in ESB. I was highly disappointed that that never happened to Obi-Wan.

    Yes, very unfortunately since this is Hollywood, GL has to make Padme attractive (in case anyone thinks Hairspray is a good movie besides me, the heroine is heavy and has the best looking guy in school after her) according to the rules of Hollywood. But as was said in an earlier post, she doesn't want to run and hide, wants to confront her attackers, isn't afraid to make herself a target and never ONCE calls to Anakin for help. I - brainwashed fool that I am - expected her to when she was tossed in the bucket in the droid foundry. How else was he going to find her if she didn't yell for help? The damn factory was making too much noise - her character was written smarter than me.
    GL is a man and he made 5 movies about father/son relationships. Therefore any women present at all will be peripheral characters. But I am grateful that the female characters he does create are along the lines of James Cameron heroines - strong and wise.

  7. StarBlazer Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Dec 2, 2001
    star 4
    Very well said, Jovieve. I agree with you completely.


    *SB*
  8. BountyHunter7 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Dec 25, 2001
    star 1
    That is another thing that makes The Matrix great, Trinity is such a badass !!
  9. Undomiel Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    May 17, 2002
    star 4
    I loved Trinity!

    Jovieve,

    Well said. :D More Han. More Obi. More Men. He forgets the lady fans of Star Wars, but he didn't in Indiana Jones (must've been Steven Spielberg's influence). One of my fav scenes is Indy on the rope bridge, looking all buff in his felt fedora, missing a sleeve and sportin' a gorgeous tan. *Grin*
  10. yoda900 Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Apr 28, 2002
    star 3
    I must agree with the person who was talking about Padme being the attraction to Anikin.

    Let me ask this question to the original poster:

    You seem like you are possibly implying that Padme does not have to be sexy or hot or whatever, or at least some people agreeing with you are saying this, but what did Anikin say to jar jar? He said

    "Jar jar, I have thought about her every single day for the last 10 years, and she does not even remember me" later he says you are just as you were in my dreams."

    In TPM he met her for like 1 day or a couple, he was 9 . IF she was not super beautiful, do you honestly think he would think about 1 girl he met every day for 10 years, and alwasy dreams about her? I dont think so.
    Also, GL picked her in part becuase she has the right look, she looks like she could be leighas mother, and she has the right attitude too.

    Also, I think star wars, the whole saga has the most powrful roles for women of lamost any movie you can think of, if you can name me 10 movies in the past 100 years (and they have to be ones most peole have heard of) I will take another look at your viewpoint , but I idsagree with what you say (your discussion is very very intelligent, just from a viewpoint I happen to not agree with)

    They also say Star Trek was suppose to be the thing that makes women's roles more powerufl, well not really, the first ones were just subordinates, the 2nd series had a doctor, the 3rd sereies moved up to being with an assistant captain and finllay voyager had a female captain.

    Star Wars had Leiah in 1977 and they cntinue to show more powerful women roles in each new one.

  11. orangerful Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Apr 29, 2002
    star 1
    I think this is a great topic to discuss but I think many of you are avoiding the topic. As well you should, its a touchy subject today. I've taken several courses that hit upon topics like this and it's always interesting to watch people face the images that the media has shoved down our throats for so many years. And the sad fact that we have accepted it so much that we just say "whatever".

    You must remember guys (and some of you make it very obvious in your posts) that you are bombarded with positive male images every day. It's not a big deal. We don't take a second glance. But for women, strong female leads are harder to come by, so when we find a movie series that we enjoy, we begin to look at the female characters that we will undoubtibly become attached to. And also when it's a male dominated genre like sci-fi/fantasy, it's good to look at the female characters because those are the characters that the males will also become attached to.

    In my opinion, the females of the star wars universe are quite strong, especially compared to other "blockbusters" this season.
    I think one of the things about the star wars universe is that the women have power and no one questions it. It's not "wow look she's a woman and she's in charge! let's question that!" , it's sort of matter of fact. The star wars universe seems to work with everyone equal. Maybe when you have alien species around, it's harder to do the men/women equality arguments.

    As for Padme, I feel she is a very strong female presence in an otherwise male dominated film. As many have pointed out, she doesn't just sit by and wait to be rescued. She picks her locks, beats the cat monster thing and then grabs a blaster to shoot up the droids. She is a Senator and stands by her morals. She is not easily scared, as she refuses to be intimidated by the attacks on her life even when one comes as close as it did on courscant. She offers herself up as bait (Anakin: it was her idea) to catch the assasins. Her relationship with Anakin is an odd one, and I might blame editing on that, but I feel that Lucas was trying to portray her as more than a blushing bride, but as a woman who is active in her relationships. She's not just sitting around and waiting. She's not going to give in to cheesy pick up lines. She doesn't say she loves you just cuz you say it to her (though he never does). She does things her way, which I felt was very independant.
    As for Portman, I like her too. She's a very normal looking girl. Okay, she's thin, but compare her to some other leading ladies and you will see that Lucas made quite a modest casting selection. Yes she is a sex symbol NOW because she was in Star Wars. But prior to these movies, I think her fan base was a bit smaller. (as was Hayden's)

    Beru, I feel her qualities were left on the cutting room floor. Hopefully the dvd (and the book when I read it) will shed some light on her. But for the lay-person, yes, her character is a server of blue milk and that's about it.

    I liked Shmi in TPM and i felt her portrayal of a mother with a "special" son was very honest and pretty much how it had to be.

    As for Zam, the Queen and other minor characters, i think their mere existence helps to push the idea that in the Galaxy Far far away women can do whatever they want.
  12. Undomiel Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    May 17, 2002
    star 4
    (Addendum)

    Indy!

    [image=http://futureprometheus.com/arts/indy8.jpg]

    click on the pic to see the full image. :D
  13. Jovieve Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    May 19, 2002
    star 4
    You go, Undomiel.

    My favorite Indy was in bed on the ship with Marian (sp?) ("it's not the years, it's the mileage.")

    ;-)
  14. Hemp-Knight Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Jun 2, 2002
    star 1
    Ugh... I knew the 19th amendment was a bad idea...
  15. Undomiel Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    May 17, 2002
    star 4
    Jovieve,

    Oh yeahhh, I forgot that one! Here's another (last one I promise). heh

    [image=http://futureprometheus.com/arts/indy11de.jpg]

    What a man. James Bond who? :D
  16. Autumn_Skywalker Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Apr 17, 2002
    star 1
    Whoa, Undomiel...NICE pic!!
  17. Jovieve Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    May 19, 2002
    star 4
    Autumn,

    LOVE your bottom signature. ROFLMAO
  18. Autumn_Skywalker Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Apr 17, 2002
    star 1
    thanks, Jovieve. :)

    *shrugs*just something for me to look at inbetween readings.

    [image=http://www.arcaneharvest.com/Jango2.jpg]

  19. lucoplakia Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Aug 10, 2001
    star 1
    Sorry to break up the pic party, but.... A lot of times when we disagree with the original poster of a thread, we precede our retort with "Great thread! But I must point out....". At least, that's what I usually do. I can't do that here.

    The premise of this thread is preposterous. This is a worthless thread. I hate it so much, I read the whole thing and now I feel hypocritically compelled to respond.

    Art mimics life. Its an old aphorism, in the realm of the cliche really, but it no less waxes true for our generic "mainstream media critique" purposes, even in extraterrestrial works of fiction.

    Brits, Aussies, Hong Kong businessmen and the like, please pardon my American bias as I make the following statements:

    Ask me to recognize the curiosity of a predominately male U.S. Senate passing a welfare act that places enormous pressure on single mothers but has virtually no effect on their counterpart males; I will comply.
    Ask me to recognize the disproportionate rates of wage increases and promotions between male and females; I will comply.
    Ask me to decry the callous attitude by employers towards women who choose to have (or simply end up having) children; hand me the megaphone.
    Compel me to see the hypocrisy of a theocratic political party which urges youngsters to abstain from sex rather than learn how to engage in sex safely, and then argue that abortion is akin to murder and the haven of sluts and heathens; I will fall upon thy alter and repent.

    These are hard-hitting issues, and I hate to bring them up in a forum such as this, but it seems to me that perspective is sorely needed here.

    Whether or not you agree with any of my viewpoints regarding actual women's issues is unimportant to me. What is important is that you recognize that a story is the prerogative of the storyteller, and as such her or she is beholden not to social or political injustices but to the qualities of their artistic genre, be it tragedy, be it adventure, be it comedy, be it morality, what have you. Cinema is complicated obviously by images, requiring the casting of real human beings, but are those decisions no less the stroke of a painter's deliberative brush?

    Ask me to bemoan the lack of strong female characters in Star Wars movies... well... I will cite MacBeth.

    Shakespeare wrought the timeless character of Lady MacBeth not to upend common conceptions of obsequious females in his time (which, even in the age of a governing female monarch, it did), but to complicate more fully his pitiable, weak-minded protagonist. Such should be the concerns of storywriters, not the effect his or her work will have on the fleeting particulars of concurrent gender politics.

    Perceived injustices in artistic media are one thing, but you may as well strike the mirror as the artist. If you don't like what you see, direct your reformative tendencies toward that which is being reflected. Or, I guess you could just deride me for saying "businessmen" rather than "businesspeople"? I wonder which approach would have a more lasting result.

    You go, Padme. Fight the power.
  20. darth_pooh Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    May 1, 2002
    star 4
    What exactly do you mean by "stronger" (re: title)? Personally, I'd rather not have a repeat of the "strong women" from teh 1980 Russian Olympics! ;)

    xena? [face_blush]
  21. Undomiel Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    May 17, 2002
    star 4
    lucoplakia,

    The pic party was a necessary moment. We ladies rarely get our eye feasts in these films. We want some beefcake, too. :D That's all, no need for diatribe. Just show us some thigh. hehe JUST TEASIN' YOU.
  22. lucoplakia Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Aug 10, 2001
    star 1

    Undomiel

    The pic party was not my bone of contention. In fact, if I owned a scanner or a web cam, you and everyone else would no doubt be offended greatly, if not seduced, with each post I delivered. Alas, my economic limitations prevent such blatent self-degredation. Oh well.
  23. Undomiel Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    May 17, 2002
    star 4
    Ah such sweet yet empty promises. :D I'm kidding, I'm kidding! lol I'm so square. Very nerdy. Most definitely prudish. Terribly antiquated. (But REALLY now, a little more Obi couldn't have hurt)
  24. Autumn_Skywalker Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Apr 17, 2002
    star 1
    [image=http://www.arcaneharvest.com/Asphixiation5.jpg]

    wow, man. it's all so complicated
  25. lucoplakia Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Aug 10, 2001
    star 1
    Who the hell is that? Eddie Munster?
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