Stronger Women Needed in AOTC

Discussion in 'Attack of the Clones' started by LeavingTashiStation, Jun 4, 2002.

Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.
  1. lucoplakia Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Aug 10, 2001
    star 1
  2. Autumn_Skywalker Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Apr 17, 2002
    star 1
    [face_laugh] !

    I sense the dark side in him.



    --------actually, just having a little intermission. I'll stop now. Back on target here.
  3. zam_wesell13 Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Apr 19, 2002
    star 2
    i agree, more stronger women are needed, maybe this will be changed in EP3. Zam dies, Shmi dies, you hardly even see Jamilla, Jocosta Nu and Beru.

    I hope that there's a Boba girlfriend, a bounty hunter too. And she kills Padme. She'll be strong. Boba's revenge for his father's death. Maybe she'll kill some Jedi with Boba...um...
  4. SHAD0W-JEDI Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    May 20, 2002
    star 3

    Generally, I am squarely in the non-PC camp... and in that regard, I applaud SW because while there is (especially in TPM and AOTC) enormous racial and gender diversity, it is all presented as refreshingly "besides the point". Granted, part of that is because of the genre (Mace Windu is not going to break into a discussion of past racial injustices in the American South, for example!), but I think it sends a wonderful message that we should focus on these "people" (including aliens) as people, and not as quota-fillers or stand-ins for their race/gender...

    That being said, I think there is SOME legitimacy to this thread. Women certainly figure prominently in the SW saga, and nearly all are shown as smart, brave, savvy, etc - Leia, Padme, Mon Mothma, etc... BUT... I think it might have been cool if a butt-kicking woman had a role of more prominence... certainly for the young girls in the audience. A matter of taste, I know, but contrast the women in CROUCHING TIGER with the main SW players and you will see what I mean. That does NOT mean I want to see Padme as a Ninja-Queen (that would not be credible; Han Solo was shown as a great pilot and as great with a gun but I wouldn't have bought him suddenly flipping around wielding a lightsaber!). But it MIGHT have been cool if (dare I suggest this!) there had been a female Darth Maul, or if Dooku had been female, or even if Mace had been.

    God...I can imagine the flaming this will set off... I enjoy all the aforementioned characters/actors, and I am - LET ME SAY THIS AGAIN! - not part of the PC mind police. But a prominent butt-kicking female Jedi, or bounty hunter, etc, might have been nice...

    Shadow
  5. sideswipe1984 Jedi Padawan

    Member Since:
    Jun 5, 2002
    At the risk of upsetting everyone, I have to say that topics like this really irk me.

    First off, PC is just a flowery method for people to further their own personal agendas. Rarely do you see minority groups championing homosexual rights. Or Women's groups lobbying to further the plight of the handicapped. Everyone is just concerned with their own interests (for the most part). Of course, the instant a white male does this, it suddenly is no longer labeled PC. But that is beside the point.

    The PC mindset continues to try to suck the fun right out of everything. No longer can we have a movie cast that focuses on a few people that happen to be of a certain ethnic persuasion or gender. No, now we must include equal representation of every race, gender, ethnicity, religion, etc. If this is not done, then the artist risks the wrath of all of these PC groups clamoring for more representation. One needs look only to that farce of a media group (the Detroit news) that started making outlandish claims a few weeks ago.

    I think someone a few messages ago said it best when they suggested Lucas compile a list for the next casting call, featuring a quota of every ethnicity, religion, and gender.

    Furthermore, what is so wrong with female roles that are traditionally feminine? What is so wrong with that? Why must we have females acting masculine on screen to try to cram down this (false) idea that men and women are identical in every respect? I don't want to see the ridiculous portrayal of an asskicking, gun-toting, butch women on the screen anymore than I want to see an effeminate male run around in a gown and high heels. This doesn't mean that they aren't strong characters. They needn't be doing masculine things to prove this.

    I am sure I will incur the wrath of the board for these words, and be perceived as a sexist, racist pig. But I assure you , that isn't the case. I grew up with three older sisters, and a strong (yet feminine) mother. It is simply a fact that I refuse to give in to the PC thought police. Lucas needn't restructure his storyline just so he can feature an irrelevant female character simply to please the PC-minded.
  6. AttackoftheCorn Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Aug 6, 2001
    star 2
    Thank you sideswipe1984, I couldn't have said it better myself.





  7. Undomiel Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    May 17, 2002
    star 4
    The funny thing about this is, I don't personally mind what opinion anyone has. I like people, period. Male, female, traditional, non-traditional, PC, non-pc, macho, feminine, effiminate, butch, black, white, whatever. lol "Peoples is peoples."--The Muppets Take Manhattan

  8. Rikalonius Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Jul 26, 2001
    star 3
    As much as I want to decry the anti- patriarchal rhetoric shared by some subscribers, I don't want to get the thread banned.

    Suffice to say that we (males) may take for granted that their are many more male roll models than female, we can also take for granted their are many more male bad guys, thugs, degenerates, and other such rif raf too.

    Just as there are great women in the world, so there are degenerates. Just because every female in Star Wars isn't equal with Yoda doesn't mean they aren't portrayed in a positive light. But GL doesn't pander to women either. He portrays them in a way they are in real life. By making some of them low-lifes.

    I wouldn't go looking for any strong role models in Boba Fetts circle of female friends. I'm sure most of them get paid by the hour. As you can see in Jabba's palace. He is professional warrior and thus doesn't have time to deal with the interference of women in his life.
  9. Green_Destiny_Sword Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jun 20, 2001
    star 4
    SIDESWIPE1984 said:I am sure I will incur the wrath of the board for these words, and be perceived as a sexist, racist pig. But I assure you , that isn't the case. I grew up with three older sisters, and a strong (yet feminine) mother.

    LOL! That's laughable. Oh no...you couldn't be a sexist at all. Your family make up proves it! What next, you have a Black friend and an Asian American school teacher??

    Satements like that always make me laugh because they prove nothing.

    If you believe what you believe, so be it. That's fine. The flaw I see with your stance on "PC Police" is that it argues from a presumption that somehow the White (and in this case, male) actors are entitled to these roles. Thus women and people of color are somehow just being "given a break" or "Lucas is becoming PC" when they are hired. Not only is that just incorrect, its extremely silly.

    You don't know why GL hired who he hires. You don't know why he makes the characters he makes. Inferring people being "PC" when they call him out for lacking strong females shows your bias from the bat.


    RIKALONIUS said: Suffice to say that we (males) may take for granted that their are many more male roll models than female, we can also take for granted their are many more male bad guys, thugs, degenerates, and other such rif raf too.


    That simplistic reasoning is precisely the problem. You don't understand the point of what the original author said. Men have not gone through the same type of exploitative, oppressive treatment in American entertainment. Thus the effect of seeing male "bad guys" or a lesser amount of strong males in a movie is meaningless. We are presumed to be strong. So your statement holds no water.
  10. sideswipe1984 Jedi Padawan

    Member Since:
    Jun 5, 2002
    I don't know why he casts the way he does? Well, one could infer from Episodes 4-6 that both Obi-Wan kenobi and Anakin Skywalker ARE white. It wasn't as if he had a clean slate to work with . And since both Luke and Leia are also white, well there is a good chance that there mother was as well. My arguments are hardly "silly" since apparently there aren't enough representations of certain groups in the film (according to some sentiments in this thread). Since they aren't there, Lucas didn't deem them necessary. Requesting That they be inserted for no other reason than to satisfy certain people, is the silly part.

    If he wanted to cast nothing BUT white males (for argument's sake) for every role in the film - that is his perogative, and noone else's. He doesn't have to pander to every interest group's whims.

    Spare me your propaganda Green Sword. My mentioning of my family simply meant to illustrate that I have had strong female influences on my life, and while I don't have any close black friends, I am partly Asian, so take your assumptions, condescension - and your agenda - and peddle them to someone who cares.
  11. PadmeLeiaJaina Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    May 23, 2002
    star 6
    I think the women are fine in ATOC. I love Padme- she doesn't need a man to make her life easy- in fact he completely complicates it. She's tough and smart.

    People who don't see that- aren't really paying attention to her character.
  12. LeavingTashiStation Jedi Padawan

    Member Since:
    Jun 4, 2002
    Well said Green Destiny Sword!
  13. surlygirlie Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Aug 1, 2000
    star 4
    Ok, I know I'm hopping into this discussion rather late in the game, but I've read through the whole thing and couldn't help but notice that no one voiced the same thought I had when I saw this topic:

    Who says females can't have male role models?

    ANH came out when I was a little kid, and whenever I played Star Wars with my friends, I almost always wanted to be Han Solo. Is this because I secretly wanted to be a man or had homosexual tendencies? Nope. I like being female and I'm hetero.
    I just wanted to play the cocky smart alec because it was fun, and because I admired Han's character.

    So, having more women in the Star Wars universe would be ok, I guess, but I'm generally unconcerned about things like gender balance.
    My selection of role models has always excluded their gender, both in film and real life.

    -sg
  14. Undomiel Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    May 17, 2002
    star 4
    Thanks for the message, Autumn. I'm not sure how to send PMs yet. I'll check into it.

    Ah so many interesting perspectives and ideas. I'm guessing part of why he cast the roles as he did originally was due to the population of the most likely viewers. White american males. Who would've thought it would cross so many boundaries, races, nationalities, etc.

    Still, it's a swashbuckler, a bit of chivalry in space. I think he aimed for a certain target audience and ended up with alot more than he bargained for. By then, as someone else mentioned, the roles were already set. It wouldn't be feasible to change the race of the parents of the original heroes and heroines, after the story had already been laid out in panavision. The tone couldn't be changed without effecting the story in a way that would change its attractiveness to the bulk of its original viewing audience to begin with. Not an easy position to work from, to be sure.
  15. lucoplakia Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Aug 10, 2001
    star 1
    Who says females can't have male role models?

    That's a good question, surliegirlie. However, the question I have right now is why does Lucas have to create role models for anyone? Why should any scriptwriter have to consider the effect his or her fictional characters will have on the real-life development of his audience's morality? Sure, kids love Star Wars, and Lucas often has them in mind when he makes his movies, but this ain't Sesame Street, sweetheart, Frank Oz notwithstanding.

    It's like I said before, art mimics life. If you don't like the sun's rays, what good is it going to do to howl at the moon for reflecting them?

    Stronger women are needed in life. Real life. What Star Wars needs is better plot development.
  16. Green_Destiny_Sword Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jun 20, 2001
    star 4
    SIDESWIPE1984-- Well, I'll give you this. You're definitely good for a laugh.

    I don't know why he casts the way he does? Well, one could infer from Episodes 4-6 that both Obi-Wan kenobi and Anakin Skywalker ARE white. It wasn't as if he had a clean slate to work with . And since both Luke and Leia are also white, well there is a good chance that there mother was as well. My arguments are hardly "silly" since apparently there aren't enough representations of certain groups in the film (according to some sentiments in this thread).

    First off, pointing out Anakin, Obi Wan and Padme as exmaples of people who "have" to be Caucasian is pretty weak. There are a lot more characters in th PT universe. Did Bail Organa have to be White? Leia passed as his daughter and Jimmy Smits is Latino. but that is all besides the point. The oringial poster wa snot asking for more women in AOTC. She just wanted the women who were in there to be stronger. That does not mean more. READ the subject line. Your last sentence would onlyu be correct if the author asked for more women. That was not the issue or the point.

    Since they aren't there, Lucas didn't deem them necessary. Requesting That they be inserted for no other reason than to satisfy certain people, is the silly part.

    Again, don't pretend this is the first SW movie. We know Star Wars s all about action, battles and people acting either evil or courageous. If there are women in a 6 part saga and none of them act strong, why can't someone take the time to critique GL? No one is saying they are going to call GL on the phone or boycott him or start a petition. It's merely stating a critique that has been perpetuated for decades in American entertainment.

    If he wanted to cast nothing BUT white males (for argument's sake) for every role in the film - that is his perogative, and noone else's. He doesn't have to pander to every interest group's whims.

    Again, this is not the first episode. This is a silly argument. We KNOW there are females in the SW universe. Weren;t you the one talking about Luke's mom having to be White?? Hello. If GL decided to make a movie like the 13th Warrior, and had an all male cast, that's his perrogative (of course, he could not deny people because they're not White, at least that's what the U.S. Consitution says). but we knew that AOTC was not going to be all-male so your point is irrelevant.

    Spare me your propaganda Green Sword.

    Ha!! LOL!! Look back at your first post in this thread. You go on grandstanding about how bad PC is and how it has sucked the fun out of things. Then accuse women's groups and minority groups of not being concerned about anyone else. And I'm the one who's writing propoganda?? Give me a break.

    My mentioning of my family simply meant to illustrate that I have had strong female influences on my life, and while I don't have any close black friends, I am partly Asian,

    Congratulations. Your actual race is irrelevant to what I'm saying. I don't even care if you are a woman. My response was not meant for any specific race of people. My point still applies regardless. Saying that you have women in your family or friends of a certain race does not mean that you are not sexist or racist. Trying to use people you know as some barometer of your own personal views makes no sense.

    so take your assumptions, condescension - and your agenda - and peddle them to someone who cares.

    Whoa...tough guy. ;) Again, I made no assumptions about you at all. Although I do see assumptions all over your original post. And I don't have an agenda but to discuss this and say what my true feelings are. Like I have been saying, when I saw AOTC, these issues did NOT cross my mind. But after reading the original post, I understand.

    Ironically, I DO think that Asian Americans are constantly poorly-portrayed in movies, when they do actually get cast in them.

    If you can't handle the arguments your facing, that's fine. But saying "peddle them to someone who cares"?? Come on..that's pretty
  17. obhavekenobi78 Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    May 20, 2002
    star 5
    I wish we could have seen two strong female characters in Star Wars fighting with speeders like they were lightsabers. That would have been really empowering for women. Maybe Tonya Harding and China from the WWF would have acceptable.
  18. LeavingTashiStation Jedi Padawan

    Member Since:
    Jun 4, 2002
    "The oringial poster wa snot asking for more women in AOTC. She just wanted the women who were in there to be stronger. That does not mean more. READ the subject line. Your last sentence would onlyu be correct if the author asked for more women. That was not the issue or the point."

    Cheers to that! But, in the interest of full transparency, the she in question is actually a he.
  19. sideswipe1984 Jedi Padawan

    Member Since:
    Jun 5, 2002
    Again, save your soapbox wittiness for the talk shows pal, I am not impressed.

    Without going through the tedious (and chldish) process of quoting and responding to every statement you made in your long-winded retort, I will end my participation in this thread. I have made my point, and to argue with you further will serve no purpose. People have their opinions on this issue, and all the arguing in the world won't change them one way or the other.

    Oh, and I'll work on those one-liners this weekend.
  20. obhavekenobi78 Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    May 20, 2002
    star 5
    Woah!

    Cat Fight! Meeeee 0w.
  21. lucoplakia Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Aug 10, 2001
    star 1
    Gadzooks, it's getting hot in here! :eek:

    Green_Destiny_Sword
    If there are women in a 6 part saga and none of them act strong, why can't someone take the time to critique GL?

    Because it's a movie, not an act of Parliament! They don't have to act any way other than what makes sense to the larger story. It is misplaced and misguided to bust GL's chops for failing to satisfy your sociopolitical wishlist rather than your literary sensibilites. The ability to critique does not make your criticism relevent, ipso dipso factamundus. Sorry, Qui-Gon.
  22. LeavingTashiStation Jedi Padawan

    Member Since:
    Jun 4, 2002
    "Because it's a movie, not an act of Parliament! They don't have to act any way other than what makes sense to the larger story. It is misplaced and misguided to bust GL's chops for failing to satisfy your sociopolitical wishlist rather than your literary sensibilites."

    Actually, that's what critical thinking is all about. In this case, it is to understand the impact pop culture has on the broader culture.
  23. Undomiel Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    May 17, 2002
    star 4
    I think I understand where lucoplakia is coming from now. The point is one of story vs. reality. Although the two closely mimic each other, the isolation of fantasy stories make them more impervious (or at least should) from gender and race issues on the sheer merit that they are fantasy. An example might be a story wherein all the elves were pale-skinned, perhaps with a purple tinge. The case could be made that the tinge should be red, yellow, brown, white or black, but this would not be sensible since the fantasy was about elves with pale purple skin, and would require a rewrite to "fit" it in.

    At least, that's the gist I'm getting from all this
  24. lucoplakia Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Aug 10, 2001
    star 1
    Actually, that's what critical thinking is all about. In this case, it is to understand the impact pop culture has on the broader culture.

    Well, I reread your original post and it seems to me that this statement is a convenient method to intellectualize and obscure what was really a straighforward demand to have female characters in Star Wars exhibit more overt physical strength and screen prominence and less sexual flair. You already seem to think you understand the impact pop culture has on real people and go so far as to prescribe a solution. I don't see where you are ostensibly encouraging an abstract mode of critical thinking.

    Regardless, what I'm saying here is that you have it backwards. While people are often influenced by what the see on TV, at the cinema house, and through other artistic and commercial outlets, it is the people themselves who ultimately define pop culture. Therefore, if you perceive a social inadequacy in a particular form of artistic (or heck, even commercial) expression, the ointment ought be applied to the people who inhabit the culture and not their novels, sculptures, advertisements, or science fiction movies.
  25. Green_Destiny_Sword Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jun 20, 2001
    star 4
    SIDESWIPE1984-- Yeah, sorry for being so childish and actually reading and responding to what you said. What was I thinking?

    And I'm glad you're gonna work on those one-liners. Let me know how it goes!

    LUKOPLAKIA said:
    Because it's a movie, not an act of Parliament! They don't have to act any way other than what makes sense to the larger story. It is misplaced and misguided to bust GL's chops for failing to satisfy your sociopolitical wishlist rather than your literary sensibilites. The ability to critique does not make your criticism relevent, ipso dipso factamundus. Sorry, Qui-Gon.


    Okay, so now we cannot critque a movie on a fansite. And how do you define literary sensibilities??? If I were to follow the worshipped Joseph Campbell model, I have every right to demand a strong male character in every SW film for "literary purporses". Or if I said Dooku should not have cut off Anakin's arm, it could be because I don't think it was a realistic aspect of the storyline or because I don't like excessive gore in movies. How could you know? In the end, it makes no difference. So you're wrong. You're just upset that the point is being raised for your own socio/politcial reasons.

    People on here debate endlessly over every last detail of these films. I don't think that's going to change anytime soon.


    Regardless, what I'm saying here is that you have it backwards. While people are often influenced by what the see on TV, at the cinema house, and through other artistic and commercial outlets, it is the people themselves who ultimately define pop culture. Therefore, if you perceive a social inadequacy in a particular form of artistic (or heck, even commercial) expression, the ointment ought be applied to the people who inhabit the culture and not their novels, sculptures, advertisements, or science fiction movies.

    I totally disagree again. If that was the case, what would explain the rise of rap music in America and the world? A form of music that was confinfed to a very small area of New York City becomes the most popular form of music entertainment. MTV goes from no rap, to Yo! MTV Raps, to Hip Hop all day. Instead of Guns N Roses we get Throw Ya Gunz Up. Rappers wear doo rags and Chuckers, kids across America wear doo rags and Chuckers. They say drink 40s, kids drink 40s. They say drink Alize, now kids drink Alize. Brittney Spears wears midriffs, girls across America wear mid-riffs. A fantasy epic comes out on 4,000 screens and the kids go buy all of the numerous toys that were product-placed in it.

    Ask any independent label band or movie director if your theory is true and I'll bet you'll get a different answer.

    The media tells us what's in, what's out, who's cool, who's not, who's pretty, who needs surgery..etc. That does not mean that you believe it, but it's certainly the message.
Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.