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PT Study of the PT. Don't take everything at face value.

Discussion in 'Prequel Trilogy' started by HevyDevy, Jan 5, 2017.

  1. HevyDevy

    HevyDevy Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Apr 13, 2011
    An "info-dump" on the PT from start to end. I'm writing this up in word on all three films, but I thought I would post the Episode One and Two segments first.


    The Phantom Menace

    - “With all due respect, the ambassadors for the Supreme Chancellor wish to board immediately.”
    Jedi are often brought in to resolve matters quickly, and as Dofine states; sometimes forcing a settlement.
    The security of the Republic helps keep the peace, but this desire for a quick solution eventually helps devolve the GFFA into the police-state of the Empire.
    Padme later states before the Senate – “I’ve come before you to resolve this attack on our sovereignty now!”
    Padme indicates in TPM, Anakin mentions in AOTC, and Palpatine generally reiterates; lamentations on the “inefficiency” of the pre-Empire Republic.
    In the Ep3 script Palpatine states about amendments to the constitution (that largely serve to give him more power) “This will help bring a quick end to things.”



    - “I sense an unusual amount of fear for something as trivial as this trade dispute.” – The TF’s fear of both the Jedi and Sidious.

    Anakin advises Jar-Jar after saving him from Sebulba “Fear attracts the fearful. He was trying to overcome his fear by squashing you... be less afraid.”
    Yoda tells Anakin his own fear is a path to the dark side. It sets up much of the saga, most of the conflict in the films can be traced back to the galaxy acting on fear in some way.
    Anakin: “Don’t be afraid.” Padme: “I’m not afraid to die.”



    - An obvious metaphor for mutual arrogance between races – “This army of mechaneeks up there is you, we saw.”



    - “Once those droids take control of the surface they will take control of you!”
    Reference to planet or civilisation “cores”? Also note Naboo, a peaceful planet, has a water core and dwellers within, where Mustafar is a magma-cored planet in a state of constant fury. Perhaps a feminine “Padme” planet for Naboo and a “Vader” planet for Mustafar was the intention symbolically.
    A related metaphor from ANH (Cryogenic explains this better) - “That’s funny, the damage doesn’t look as bad from out here.” Things can seem orderly on the surface while being rotted within.



    - After a giant aquatic beast catches a fish that is attacking our heroes – “There’s always a bigger fish.”
    Referencing both Palpatine’s machinations, and the Sith’s tendency to betray one another, cannibalising the weaker ally when they get a chance, such as Palpatine killing Dooku, or selling out Gunray and the Separatists.



    - Symbiosis.

    Obi-Wan: “You and the Naboo form a symbiont circle, what happens to one of you will affect the other, you must understand this!”
    The main arc related to the literal application of this is a moral lesson on harmony between different cultures.
    But the concept echoes throughout the series in different ways...

    Qui-Gon describes all life together with the midichlorians as “lifeforms living together for mutual advantage”. So without the force, there is no life, and without life there is no force.

    Anakin wins the podrace (after Sebulba’s sabotage) by using the good engine’s power to reignite the failing engine.

    Anakin and Padme are arguably in a symbiotic relationship by the time of ROTS.
    Padme: “I’ve been dying a little each day since you came back into my life.” ... Anakin: "Just help me save Padme's life. I can’t live without her.” - apply literally as well as metaphorically.
    As Padme fades Vader is born. As Anakin's true self vanishes and the Republic disappears Padme loses will and strength. This is the symbiosis theme at full-throttle, the two are literally dependent on each other to keep living at all.




    - This quirk is quite obvious. Padme’s dialogue in TPM of course often holds a double-meaning due to her decoy posing as her (the Queen).
    Decoy - “Either choice presents great danger... to us all.”
    Padme – “We are brave your highness.”
    This is Padme’s double looking to the real queen Padme for confirmation they will leave for Coruscant.
    “The Queen is worried.” = Padme is worried.
    “We are sure her heart goes with you.” = “My heart goes with you.”



    - “Now there are two of them!” “We should not have made this bargain!”
    ...
    “I’m sending my apprentice Darth Maul to join you.”
    ...
    “Always two there are, no more, no less. A master and an apprentice...”
    ...
    “When my new apprentice Darth Vader arrives, he will take care of you.”
    This “always two” concept also makes Dooku’s death in ROTS a little more ominous. Palpatine never really goes without an apprentice, so you can imagine Anakin is slotting right in when he kills Dooku, even if he doesn’t pledge until later. Obi-Wan also tells Padme much later “After the death of Count Dooku, Anakin became (Palpatine's) new apprentice.” On the surface, he is just recounting the events of the film, but it is fitting that on some level it was perhaps literally the moment Dooku died. It also adds some weight to the moment Luke almost killing his father at ROTJ’s climax being a close call.



    - “I saw your laser sword. Only Jedis carry that kind of weapon.”
    “Perhaps I killed a Jedi and took it from him?”
    Obi-Wan kills Maul with his defeated Master’s saber, and picks up the baton as Jedi Knight and Anakin’s new master.
    Anakin’s saber ends up having quite a legacy.
    Obi-Wan helps seal Anakin’s fate as Vader on the banks of Mustafar and takes away the saber, a symbol of the fallen Jedi. it is later passed on to Luke, Luke loses it simultaneously with discovering Vader’s true identity as his father. It helps begin Rey’s journey and Kylo understandably seeks it also.
    Obi-Wan also states in AOTC “This weapon is your life!” This could refer to the lightsaber as a representation of a Jedi’s soul. And, take it or leave it, the philosophy is also a strange contrast to Yoda telling Luke he "won’t need his weapons" while giving Luke the majority of his training, on Dagobah.



    - “I don’t think so. No one can kill a Jedi.”
    Anakin personally helps carry out Order 66.
    Sith seek immortality, Qui-Gon achieves it with identity retention after death.
    Anakin is only redeemed when he gives up his life, but earns non-corporeal immortality.



    - “I can see there is no fooling you, Anakin.” (Sincere)
    “You have great wisdom, Anakin.” (Pretending he doesn’t feel Anakin is gullible or naive.)



    - Shmi -“He gives without any thought of reward.” + “He knows nothing of greed.”
    Palpatine - “Ever since I’ve known you, you have been searching for a life greater than that of an ordinary Jedi. A life of significance, of conscience.”
    Mother-figure vs father-figure contrast, and something that definitely changes as Anakin grows older.

    “Greed can be a powerful ally.”
    Qui-Gon uses Watto’s greed as a tool to fix their problem. Sidious uses the greed in the galaxy to take over, even Anakin’s own eventual greed and lust for power play a large part in Sidous’s plan.

    Anakin - “Mom, you say the biggest problem in the universe is no one helps each other.”
    Palpatine - “There is no interest in the common good.”
    Similar ideology on some level?



    - “Even Master Yoda doesn’t have a midichlorian count that high!”
    “No Jedi has.”
    "What does it mean?"
    This can be a double-edged statement – is Anakin the most significant Jedi, or does he not truly belong with them; referenced here as “no Jedi”?



    - “I had a dream I was a Jedi. I came back here and freed all the slaves.”
    Premonition of Jedihood and a metaphor for the climax of ROTJ. Anakin mentions several dreams in the movies and novelisations, which tend to be prophetic.



    - “Now you can make your dreams come true. You’re free.”
    Anakin turns trying to prevent dreams from coming true. And is he ever truly free?

    “But it’s what I want, what I’ve always dreamed of! Can I go, mom?”
    “Anakin, this path has been placed before you. The choice is yours alone.”
    Anakin as a slave all his life (literally then metaphorically) always differs to a lead, he needs to be guided to make his decisions. More on this later.



    - Again there is a reference to the virtue of patience and not rushing for an instant fix; Anakin is taken away from his mother prematurely.
    “Then pack your things. We haven’t much time.” “Yipee!” - Anakin not comprehending the separation until a moment later. And he still never fully grasps the repercussions of this even as a Jedi.



    - Shmi: “Then we will see each other again.”
    Comes true under the worst circumstance.



    - “Nothing happens by accident.”
    References the will of the force.
    “I shall do what I must, Obi-Wan!”
    Qui-Gon promises to train Anakin and believes it is willed. On death he passes the baton to Obi-Wan.
    “He is headstrong and has much to learn of the living force, but he is capable.”
    It seems implied that Obi-Wan defeats both Maul and Anakin/Vader because the force is with him.



    - Anakin: “It’s very cold.”
    “How feel you?” “Cold, sir.”
    Luke: “I feel cold... death.”
    Related to the dark side, I think.



    - Palpatine speaking of Padme...
    “It is a great gift to see you alive, your majesty.”
    “The thought of losing you... is unbearable.”
    “Do not hesitate, show no mercy. Only then will you be strong enough with the dark side to save Padme.”
    Sidious shows his true feelings (or lack thereof) when he coldly smiles after delivering news of Padme’s death to Vader. Padme was always a tool, even an obstacle, to him.



    - “Ah, hard to see the dark side is!”
    On the surface, a reference to the hidden Sith being invisible to the Jedi until now.
    But unbeknownst to Yoda he is referencing that the Sith Lord Palpatine will be operating right under their noses for the next thirteen years. They don’t sense the dark in him.
    Also is a good analogy for the fact a Jedi can miss the dark in his/her own actions until it is too late, as we see with Anakin, and is almost reoccurring with Luke.
    “Clouded this boy’s future is.”
    Haze and shroud of the dark side and the Jedi’s diminishing sight. “Always in motion is the future.”
    “I saw a city in the clouds...”
    AOTC starts in a cloudy Coruscant, ESB ends in a cloudy Bespin. Uncertainty.
    “Young Skywalker’s fate will be decided later.” Indeed, much regarding Anakin's destiny transpires later.



    - Padme has quite an underrated character arc I think.
    Padme: “I will not condone a course of action that will lead us to war.”
    Sidious: “Queen Amidala is young and naive. You will find controlling her will not be difficult.”
    Within TPM, she starts off quite staunchly determined to solve her problem with diplomacy. At this stage seems to idealistically believe that the Republic, as is, can help her. The events of the movie anger and disillusion her, and when she sees the Senate is too corrupt/inefficient to help her, she takes the fight to the Trade Federation herself.
    “It is clear to me the Republic no longer functions.” ... “We will take back what’s ours!”
    Sidious: “This is an unexpected move for her. It’s too aggressive.”

    Furthermore, her efforts are of course implicit in Palpatine’s own plan.
    On arrival on Coruscant she (technically her decoy) gives true ally Valorum the cold shoulder - “I’m grateful for your concern, Chancellor.” Sounds fairly dismissive, she states this as Palpatine (seemingly fittingly as the devil in her ear) lures her away from Valorum through one of several empty promises. “There is a question of procedure, but I am confident we can overcome it.” Another reference to the Republic, symbolised by Padme, willingly bypassing correct procedure for an easy fix. Additionally, Padme mentions in the next film she thought she hadn’t been ready to be Queen. Her youthful naivety had indeed hindered her, helping Palpatine’s rise to power. And as it turns out in TPM, the vote of no confidence in Valorum doesn’t end up really benefiting her, so Palpatine’s claims ring hollow.

    “With all due respect, the Chancellor has little real power, he is mired by baseless accusations of corruption.” – Reverse psychology.

    Both Padme and Anakin fall prey to claims by Palpatine being proven true by what unfolds after.
    “Enter the bureaucrat, the true rulers of the Republic. And on the payroll of the Trade Federation I might add. This is where Chancellor Valorum’s strength will disappear.”
    Valorum then of course requests she differs until a commission investigates, conveniently proving right Palpatine’s claims regarding the inefficiency, powerlessness and corruption of the Senate. Much like with her husband, Palpatine plants the seed by making it look like his target is coming to a conclusion by their own logic, and while Padme and Anakin seem hesitant to believe at first, Palpatine’s predictions come true and persuade them, seemingly without Palpatine actually doing anything.

    It is notable that both leader figures; Padme (Republic symbol) and Palpatine (Empire symbol) are fairly eloquent in the way they present themselves. Palpatine uses Padme’s power and influence in TPM (even feigning humility next to Padme on the podium), and his own persuasiveness generally, to bend the Senate to his will.
    There are a fair few parallels between Padme and Palpatine, but the most striking to me is the fact these are the only two people Anakin ends up loyal to as Vader. Something that kind of hints at this...
    (To Padme) - “The people thought you did a good job. I heard they even tried to amend the Constitution to extend your term in office.” ‘I was relieved when my two terms were up.”
    Obi-Wan: “Anakin, our allegiance is to the Senate, not to it’s leader, who has managed to stay in office, long after his term has expired.” “The Senate demanded that he stayed longer!”
    I noticed years back we kind of get an inversion with the two leaders; Padme, a leader who steps down from power, and Sidious, a leader who never stops climbing until he owns the whole galaxy. It also strongly reinforces a flaw in Anakin; he is loyal to people, not principles.
    Anakin also tells both of them (in AOTC and ROTS respectively) he will do “anything (they) ask” – to Padme regarding their relationship, to Sidious to save Padme’s life.


    I find the contrast between Padme/Palpatine and Jar Jar addressing the Senate amusing... Padme: “Honourable representatives of the Republic... I come before you under the gravest of circumstances.” compared to Jar Jar: “Senators, dellow felegates”. It is perhaps a commentary on the gullible masses relative to it’s wiser leaders; after all Jar Jar in the noted scene is standing in for Padme, but is proposing emergency powers for Palpatine, something Padme would never have allowed. Yet both the strong and humble are being used by the Sith here in a similar way.


    Padme is part of the “loyalist committee” in AOTC, and while she leans to the left morally and politically, Padme is clearly still faithful in the Republic at this stage. Palpatine says something telling – “Senator Amidala will not refuse an executive order. I know her well enough to assure you of that.”
    Padme will be a key part of the formation of the Rebellion, her outlook shifts throughout the films, tragically leading up to her (and by extension, the Republic’s) passing. Symbolically, Padme just can’t exist in a world where the Sith decide absolutely everything for everyone.
    Sidious poisons Anakin, until he sees the delegation of 2000 and the Jedi as traitors for just trying to preserve democracy and maintain autonomy from a rising dictator.
    She hinted her true beliefs to Anakin when she asked (as a voice of reason) if he has “considered we may be on the wrong side”, but Anakin is too blind to who the real villains are, to take this on board. As the PT unfolds Anakin is believing more and more in a “wise” and “powerful” leader imposing what is “right” for everyone.

    On helping Palpatine gain power in TPM, and what is essentially the beginning of the end, Palpatine states to Padme – “Your boldness has saved our people, it is you who should be congratulated.” I wonder if this has any connection to Leia in ANH – “Darth Vader. Only you could be so bold.”
    “Together, we will bring peace and prosperity to the galaxy.” is similar to the way The Emperor addresses Vader. Makes Luke’s success in ROTJ poetic justice after seeing just how much Palpatine leeched of his parents.




    - “Now they will elect a new Chancellor. A strong Chancellor. One who will not let our tragedy continue.”
    Himself, the cause of the ultimate tragedy of the saga.

    “If I am elected I promise to bring an end to corruption.”
    Eventually through brute force and personal conquest of the galaxy.



    - I might be flogging a dead horse with this, but there are several references in the trilogy to Naboo being a symbolical haven relative to other planets (most often I’ve compared it to Coruscant and Mustafar).
    The invasion of the peaceful planet in TPM signifies the galaxy beginning to lose it’s innocence.
    Padme: “This is your arena, I feel I must return to mine.” Palpatine falsely reassures Padme on Coruscant - “Stay here, where it’s safe!” In reality, Coruscant seems to bring the main players in the films a lot of hardship.
    Coruscant is the corrupt central planet; the first time we see the planet happens to be Darth Sidious and Darth Maul’s first scene in the flesh. And Palpatine even introduces their plea in the Senate with “A tragedy has occurred, which started right here with the taxation of trade routes, and has now engulfed our entire planet in the oppression of the Trade Federation!” to make Padme’s plight relatable to the Republic citizens and demonise the Separatists, those on the “outside”.
    Padme has repeated attempts on her life on Coruscant – ‘I shouldn’t have come back.” - she and Anakin even escape back to Naboo to go into hiding. “She’ll be safer there.”
    Anakin and Padme both reference feeling solitude on Naboo in the novelisations and scripts.
    “Ani, I want to have our baby back home on Naboo. We can go to the lake country where no one will know, where we can be safe.”
    “Hold me. Like you did by the lake on Naboo. So long ago, when there was nothing but our love. No politics, no plotting, no war.”



    - “Afraid are you?” “No, sir.”
    “Jedi don’t have nightmares.”
    “I’m a Jedi, I know I’m better than this!”
    Anakin’s stubbornness not to admit his fear here is a large part of the spiral to the dark side, wanting to save everyone and everything by himself, until himself is all he has. And it makes his title “The hero without fear” quite ironic.



    - Anakin’s optimism regarding the Jedi gradually fades over the course of the PT.
    “No one can kill a Jedi.”
    “I dreamed I was a Jedi. I came back here and freed all the slaves.”
    “I’m on my way to the Jedi Temple, to start my training I hope.”

    “It’s overkill Master, investigation is implied in our mandate.” – having problems with the Jedi restrictions.
    “Don’t worry, now that the Council has ordered an investigation it won’t take Master Obi-Wan long to find this assassin.” – Anakin shows some optimistic faith in Obi-Wan and the Jedi here.
    “Jedi don’t have nightmares.” –Stubbornly putting the Jedi (and himself) on a pedestal.

    “The Jedi are selfless, they only care about others.” – Convincing himself as much as Palpatine. He believes it for now.

    “I must admit, my trust in them has been shaken.” – Losing faith.

    Finally - “Don’t lecture me Obi-Wan. I see through the lies of the Jedi!”




    - Qui-Gon imparts a fair few wise lessons.

    “Be mindful of the living force, young padawan.” to Obi-Wan.
    “I’m not allowed to train you, so I want you to watch me and be mindful.” to Anakin.
    “Stay close to me and you will be safe.” – Metaphor for walking a path close to Qui-Gon’s to reach enlightenment?

    “Remember, your focus determines your reality.”
    Obi-Wan tries to echo this with “You’re focusing on the negative. She was pleased to see us.”
    But Obi-Wan’s “Be mindful of your thoughts.” somewhat contrasts Qui-Gon’s “...mindful of the living force.”

    Like “Feel, don’t think.”and “When you learn to quieten your mind...” seem more internal than Obi-Wan’s “Patience. Use the force. Think.”
    Obi-Wan seems wiser with Luke than with Anakin – “Your eyes can deceive you, don’t trust them!”
    Yoda also teaches the AOTC younglings “Use your feelings you must.” And Palpatine hints to Anakin “In time you will learn to trust your feelings. Then you will be invincible.”
    I think these contrasts between using spirit and mind were quite intended.



    - Qui-Gon’s and Maul’s deaths (in original canon at least) seem like an ill-fated thing with regards to Anakin. Anakin loses his new master, Palpatine loses his star apprentice; to me it looks like Anakin is pretty much lined up to join Sidious by fate.
    Qui-Gon had promised to watch over Anakin, and on Qui-Gon’s death Palpatine cheerfully yet ominously states he will be watching the young upstart’s career.

    - “We are indebted to you for your bravery, master Kenobi.” Veiled hostility toward his pupil’s killer?



    - “I will train Anakin, without the approval of the Council if I must.” Pretty cool that Obi-Wan was willing to go rogue to fulfil his dead mentor's last wish. But also related to a paradox – even though Anakin was indeed the chosen one, was Qui-Gon right to insist he was trained.

    “Qui-Gon’s defiance I sense in you, need that you do not.”
    Parallel to Yoda (and Obi-Wan) becoming Qui-Gon’s (spirit’s) apprentices after the events of the PT.







    Attack of The Clones
    This episode is very hazy and full of potential mystery.

    - “I will not let this Republic that has stood for a thousand years be split in two.”
    Yes, united under the Galactic Empire.

    - “Master Yoda, do you really think it will come to war?”
    The very man behind the coming war, flaunting in front of Yoda. And perhaps testing his enemy’s weakness, the Jedi’s diminishing powers of precognition.



    - It seems hinted Palpatine is orchestrating things regarding Padme when he suggests to Padme (and to the Jedi present) that Obi-Wan (and therefore Anakin) be assigned to protect her. Perhaps to tempt Anakin with a forbidden romance, for obvious reasons. Later the Council will suggest sending Anakin and Padme off-world to keep her safe, Mace even suggesting Anakin request Palpatine convinces her to go. This seems short-sighted to me; Anakin and Padme away in romantic seclusion (“Protect the Senator at all costs.” is in a sense what Anakin turns to achieve), and the militarisation movement more likely to succeed with Padme away and unable to vote it down. Plus it somewhat pushes Anakin closer to Palpatine. The events of the PT seem to constantly distance Anakin further from his youth, the Jedi taking him from Shmi prematurely, pushing him towards Padme in AOTC, and towards Palpatine and away from Obi-Wan; for example by the Council’s request Anakin spy on Palpatine.



    - “I think Count Dooku is behind the attack.” ... “Count Dooku was once a Jedi. He couldn’t assassinate anyone, it’s not in his character.”
    Padme proves more perceptive than the Jedi in this instance. And while Mace is correct about the Jedi temperament, it is a little arrogant of him to assume. Plus, perhaps unintentionally, it is ironically worded when Mace will die (in this same room) accused of an assassination attempt in the next film.



    - “We will find out who is trying to kill you Padme, I promise.” Anakin is arrogant here, but his words are proven true.



    - Obi-Wan: “You look tired.” Anakin: “I don’t sleep well anymore.”
    This is recurring in AOTC and ROTS, where Anakin’s nightmares make him fear going to sleep. He is quite sleep-deprived and stressed in the period after Dooku’s death where Palpatine is seducing him.
    Perhaps sleep is also a metaphor for death?
    “Dreams pass in time.”
    Obi-Wan portraying a large part of the Jedi philosophy, but circumstance and perhaps a schism between Anakin and the Jedi path means the otherwise helpful advice can’t sate Anakin.
    “I’d much rather dream about Padme.”
    Ouch. Anakin doesn’t quite realise what he is foreshadowing here.



    - Obi-Wan: “Why do I feel you are going to be the death of me?”
    ...
    Anakin: “Not again. Obi-Wan is going to kill me.”



    - “Quiet as a tomb.” Telling wording.



    - Anakin’s one scene with Palpatine involves Palpatine undermining Anakin’s teachings.

    “Your patience has paid off.” – when Anakin is told by the Jedi he isn’t patient enough yet. Anakin is part way there in ROTS – “I say patience.” but still has a way to go – “But be patient, Anakin. It will not be long before the Council makes you a Master.”

    “You don’t need guidance Anakin.” – where realistically Anakin just isn’t wise enough yet on his own. And this is a hypocritical claim as Palpatine will directly influence Anakin greatly.

    “In time you will learn to trust your feelings. Then you will be invincible.” The Jedi also encourage relying on feeling, but Anakin’s are arguably misguided. And the second line is later reflected in Anakin’s attempt to finish Obi-Wan on the Mustafar lavabank... Palpatine made him think he was invincible, and it costs him. Also with “I see you becoming greatest of all Jedi Anakin. Even more powerful than Master Yoda.”



    - “If an item is not in our records it does not exist!”
    The Jedi are stagnating, she can’t consider the possibility that the records are incorrect, and Obi-Wan and Yoda end up needing the not-yet-biased mind of a child to see it.
    Yoda also states about Jedi arrogance “A flaw more and more common among Jedi... too sure of themselves they are. Even the older, more experienced ones.”
    This is a particularly ironic statement when the three Jedi in the conversation (and Anakin, whom they are discussing) will fall victim to this in the next film. Anakin turns after Obi-Wan insists he can successfully train him, Mace is killed after telling Sidious the Sith have lost, Yoda tells Sidious his reign is over then loses and goes into exile, and finally Anakin arrogantly takes the weight of the galaxy on his own shoulders and loses everything.



    - Qui-Gon shows compassion to all living things.

    Anakin: “Compassion, which I would define as unconditional love, central to a Jedi’s life. So you might say we are encouraged to love.”

    Qui-Gon (ROTS script): “The ability to defy oblivion can be achieved, but only for oneself. It was accomplished by a Shaman of the Whills. It is a state acquired through compassion, not greed.”

    The Emperor: “His compassion for you will be his undoing.”
    Where Anakin’s love for Padme and compassion for Sidious initially damned him, paradoxically Luke’s love and compassion for Vader reawakens the Jedi in him and ultimately undoes the Emperor.



    - “Well if droids could think there’d be none of us here, would there?”
    “Clones can think creatively. You’ll find they are immensely superior to droids.”

    Obi-Wan's line is philosophy, but the two quotes together foreshadow that the Clones will betray and destroy the Jedi. Also foreshadowed by the Clone template Jango telling Obi-Wan he was hired by a (Darth) Tyrannus.




    - Padme: “I pray you will bring sanity and compassion back to the Senate.”
    ...
    Jamilla: “The day we stop believing in democracy is the day we lose it.” Padme: “Let’s pray that day never comes.”

    Sio Bibble: “I fear the Senate is powerless to resolve this crisis.”

    Anakin: “I don’t think the system works.”
    ...
    Padme: “Maybe the democracy we thought we were serving no longer exists, and the Republic has become the very evil we’ve been fighting to destroy.”

    Padme: “So this is how liberty dies... with thunderous applause.”




    - “That’s exactly what we do, only the people don’t always agree.”
    “Well then they should be made to.”
    “By whom, who’s going to make them?
    “I don’t know.”
    “You?”
    “Of course not me!”
    “But someone?”
    “Someone wise.”

    “...As wise as Master Yoda, and as powerful as Master Windu.”
    “Have you ever heard the tragedy of Darth Plagueis the wise?”
    “If you want to become a complete and wise leader, you must embrace a larger view of the force.”... You have great wisdom, Anakin.”
    “Master, the Chancellor is very powerful, you’re going to need my help if you’re going to arrest him.”




    - Padme after Anakin proclaims his feelings for her: “I can’t. We can’t, it’s just not possible.”
    Slightly inversely, Padme later says this when Obi-Wan asks her to divulge Anakin/Vader’s location: “I can’t.”




    - Anakin leaves his mission twice in AOTC to act on his attachments. Padme enables him both times (“I’ll go with you.” to Tattooine to help his mother, and “I’m going to Geonosis to help Obi-Wan. If you want to protect me, you’ll just have to come along.”) She also tells him “To be angry is to be human.” after the Tusken slaughter. Padme is unrestricted to be more human than Anakin, who as a Jedi has to be above his flaws. This is a pretty subjective topic, so I will leave it open.
    Luke will similarly leave his training on Dagobah to help his friends, but like Anakin he fails in his rescue attempt(s), and curiously inversely to Anakin ends up having to be rescued by his sister Leia. Luke and Leia’s bond as siblings has a far more positive outcome than their parent’s tragic arcs.




    - Padme: “Stay with the ship Artoo.”
    Anakin: “Artoo, go back, I need you to stay with the ship.”
    Vader: “R2. Stay with the ship.”
    Perhaps hints at a larger saga theme of self-imposed prisons. Plus, Anakin and Padme essentially “swap” ownership of C-3PO (Anakin to Padme) and R2-D2 (Padme to Anakin) over the course of the PT, then the droids go to their kids; from Leia to Luke in the OT.




    - “I’m a man of my word, Viceroy.” – Dooku is repeatedly shown to not be.
    a) Dooku is planning to betray the Separatists.
    b) “I will petition to have you released immediately.” – fat chance.
    “There are no bounty hunters here that I am aware of, the Geonosians don’t trust them.” – Lie, he personally hired Jango.
    c) “... We will have an army greater than any in the galaxy.”... “How could the Republic have amassed an army so quickly?” – Both lies as he was involved in the creation of the (superior) Clone army.
    d) “My master will never allow the Republic to get away with this treachery.” – His master is developing the Empire out of the Republic, not in opposition to it.
    e) “I will take the plans with me to Coruscant. They will be much safer there with my master.” – He steals the DS plans for the Empire. Also a little ironic that the Rebels will later steal similar DS schematics back.
    f) Plus whenever a Sith says someone/something will be safe it turns out to be the opposite. Palpatine says Padme is safe on Coruscant, where she suffers several attempts on her life. Dooku says the DS plans are safe with him and Palpatine. Sidious tells Grievous to inform the Separatist leaders they will be safe on Mustafar.



    - “I will not sign it.” “Now now, your highness, in time the suffering of your people will persuade you to see out point of view.”
    Dooku: “We must persuade the Commerce Guilds and the Corporate Alliance to sign out treaty.”
    Interesting that TPM involves a treaty to solidify TF control, AOTC involves a treaty to absolve the Republic’s control of Separatist systems.

    Plus Gunray again states “I want to see her suffer!”





    - “What you are proposing could be construed as treason.”
    Palpatine commits this treason for a greater purpose – to eventually accuse the Jedi and Separatists of just that!
    Dooku forming the Separatist movement is bait for both sides. I sometimes wonder if he knew Obi-Wan was listening to the conversation from above.




    - A lot of parallels between Anakin and Luke at the Lars homestead (a thread on Luke and Anakin here) but most significantly; sitting at the same table Anakin longs for a missing mother, Luke longs for a missing father. Anakin has just met his step-family, Luke can’t wait to get away from his.




    - Shmi dies trying to tell Anakin “I love you...” but it is cut short.
    Padme’s last exchange with Anakin is “I love you!” - cut short by Anakins’ choke when he wrongfully believes she brought Obi-Wan on purpose. He never sees her again after this.




    - “Life seems so much simpler when you are fixing things. I’m good at fixing things, always was.” Padme: “Sometimes there are things no one can fix.” Obvious metaphors in this scene. And the Jedi path failing to be what he had hoped. Blaming his own perceived “weakness”.




    - “It seems he is carrying a message from an Obi-Wan Kenobi! Master Anakin, does that name mean anything to you?”
    Obi-Wan is referenced many times relative to Anakin and Vader, some have speculated as a fading link to Anakin’s conscience. “HE is here.” “Obi-Wan Kenobi?”
    Plus inversely R2 is carrying an iconic message for Obi-Wan in ANH.




    - “The Viceroy of the Trade Federation was once in league with this Darth Sidious, but he was betrayed ten years ago by the dark Lord. He came to me, told me everything.” One of many references to the bad guys betraying, cannibalising each other. Sidious betrayed Gunray, then Dooku betrays the Separatists, then Sidious betrays Dooku, then Sidious betrays Gunray again.




    - “The power you have given me I will lay down when this crisis is abated.” – thanks to Palpatine (and the Jedi’s efforts to maintain justice and peace), technically the crisis is never over, hence the claimed necessity of an Empire.




    - The Geonosian spectators to Anakin and Padme’s attempted execution are a metaphor for the SW audience voyeuristically watching their tragic romance unfold.




    - “I’ve had the most peculiar dream!” Cryogenic has often talked about the dreamlike feel of AOTC.




    - Troop: “All forward positions are advancing.”
    Yoda: “Very good.”

    It is apparent with the Jedi as generals invading Geonosis, that the Jedi are out of place somewhat here. Lucas has stated similar. It possibly demonstrates that the Jedi are beginning to contribute to the imbalance by fighting a war at all.

    “We have a job to do!” – regarding heading for Dooku confrontation in AOTC.
    “The mission! Get to the Chancellor.” – regarding heading for the second Dooku confrontation in ROTS.
    Although Anakin is victorious the second time, both encounters are spiritual failures. Carelessly charging in prematurely, then losing his arm in AOTC. Defeating Dooku with the dark side, and killing him in cold blood on Palpatine’s command in ROTS.



    - “Powerful you have become, Dooku. The dark side I sense in you.”
    But the Jedi don’t sense it in Palpatine. Dooku is the public face of the war, and then takes the fall for Sidious. Dooku was arguably more in line with the Separatist philosophy, although realistically he was always planning to sell them out.

    More importantly, there is a recurring theme of a dark side shroud. Dooku earlier tells Obi-Wan about Sidious controlling the Senate, but Obi-Wan refuses to believe it. Much like Padme can’t believe Obi-Wan when he informs her of Palpatine’s true identity and Anakin’s turn in the next film.
    Yoda mentions to Mace if they inform the Senate of the Jedi’s diminishing vision “multiply their adversaries will.” Totally oblivious to the Senate already being run by the Sith.
    Obi-Wan tells Yoda “It doesn’t feel right.” – In this shroud the PT Jedi’s feelings are leading them astray. Lukes has much clearer force-sight in the OT, and tends to succeed when he uses his feelings.




    - “The shroud of the dark side has fallen.”
    Yoda refers to the Sith leading the Separatists, but with Palpatine leading both sides the shroud is only growing thicker.
    Dooku also says in the scene prior “The force is with us, Master Sidious.” This seems accurate, as with the force going further out of balance, in the PT the force indeed appears to be with the Sith.




    - Anakin is repeatedly “surveyed for damage”.
    What I mean is, at crucial points in his story people will worry about him, or he will worry about someone close to him.

    After Qui-Gon first faces Maul – Anakin: “Are you alright?”

    Missing his mother on route to Coruscant in TPM - Padme: “Are you alright?” Anakin: “It’s very cold.”

    Anakin pretends to be hurt falling off the animal during the Naboo meadow scene and Padme is worried.

    When Anakin loses his mother – Obi-Wan: “That’s Anakin’s tracking signal alright, but it’s coming from Tattooine! What in blazes is he doing there? I told him to stay on Naboo.” ... “I do hope nothing has happened to him.”

    When Padme falls out out of the gunship on Geonosis and regains consciousness the clonetrooper asks if she is alright. Others have speculated that Anakin being incapacitated simultaneously (by Dooku’s lightning) references the couple’s link to each other.

    On finding Palpatine on The Invisible Hand – Anakin: “Are you alright?”

    After the fight Anakin checks an unconscious Obi-Wan – “He seems to be alright.”

    Padme: “There were whispers that you’d been killed.” Anakin: “I’m alright. It feels we’ve been apart for a lifetime.” Like Obi-Wan’s concerns during the Tusken slaughter, Padme asks this at a time Anakin has taken a further step towards the dark side (by killing Dooku).

    During the Jedi Temple raid – C-3PO: “The Chancellor’s office indicates Anakin returned to the Jedi Temple. Don’t worry, I’m sure he’ll be alright.” Padme cries, sensing Anakin’s actions at the Temple. Threepio’s line is very ironic, as Anakin is actually harming others, yet is also damaging himself.

    After Order 66 – Padme: “Are you alright, I heard there was an attack on the Jedi Temple, you could see the smoke from here!”
    Anakin: “I’m fine, I’m fine, I came to see if you and the baby were safe.”
    Anakin looks the same but the true corruption is internal.

    On Mustafar – “Anakin: “I saw your ship. What are you doing out here?”
    Padme: “I was so worried about you! Obi-Wan told me terrible things!”

    After Anakin is immolated – Padme: “Obi-Wan! Is Anakin alright?”
    After the suit is constructed – Vader: “Where is Padme? Is she safe? Is she alright?”
     
  2. Alexrd

    Alexrd Force Ghost star 5

    Registered:
    Jul 7, 2009
    I was going to debate but the length of the post makes it too unwieldy to even try. Perhaps a more focused topic next time?
     
  3. HevyDevy

    HevyDevy Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Apr 13, 2011
    Well, at least you read it. [face_peace]

    It is unfocused, but it will make a little more sense when I add ROTS I think. A lot of thoughts that don't really fit anywhere.
     
  4. HevyDevy

    HevyDevy Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Apr 13, 2011
    If you are referring to the "Weapon is your life" contrasting "You will not need them" point again, I admit it could be coincidental, but it seems deeper to me as a sign of progress. With the repercussion that Luke throwing away his saber in ROTJ was metaphorically giving up his life ("This weapon your life") willingly, and this is what he always needed to do to become a Jedi.

    On the Feel vs Think analogy, I admit both eras of Jedi/Sith implore you to be mindful of your thoughts, but in the films thinking for the answer often seems to lead the characters astray.
    Obi-Wan says in ANH not to trust your eyes, to feel for the solution. Spirit vs mind.

    I know you don't think the Jedi's arrogance was at fault for their downfall, but ROTS shows this to be at least part of the reason.
     
  5. Alexrd

    Alexrd Force Ghost star 5

    Registered:
    Jul 7, 2009
    It's not that I don't understand the post itself, it's just too lengthy to be able to quote everything I would like and engage in a discussion. I was actually going to address the "desire for a quick solution" first, which is merely a reaction to the slow and inneficient way the Republic works.
     
  6. HevyDevy

    HevyDevy Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Apr 13, 2011
    Well, I beg to differ, the time factor is so recurring.

    Padme: "We're gonna need some help!"
    Obi-Wan: "There isn't time! Anakin and I can handle this."

    Both lose to Dooku and have to be rescued by Yoda, a duelist superior to Dooku who only lets Dooku escape to bail out Anakin and Obi-Wan again. Imagine Yoda, Obi-Wan and Anakin taking Dooku on together.



    "Anakin, there's no time. We must get off this ship before it's too late."
    "He seems to be alright."
    "Leave him or we'll never make it!"
    "His fate will be the same as ours."

    The whole panic is by Palpatine's design in the first place.


    "I am going to end thisonce and for all!" ...
    "He has control of the Senate and the Courts. He's too dangerous to be left alive!"

    Padme: "The Courts take even longer to decide things than the Senate."

    Mace is clearly rushing his decision and action.

    Edit-
    Contrast "Then our greatest fears have been realised. We must move quickly if the Jedi Order is to survive." with "I have been waiting a long time for this moment,my little green friend."

    Mace doesn't take the time to inform the Senate, or the Jedi Order, he just acts. Palpatine on the other hand gradually transforms the Republic institutions over years, biding his time until the Jedi play into his hands.




    Anakin tries to end his fight with Obi-Wan instantly, and pays with his own grizzly defeat.
    The "quick and easy path."
     
    Billy_Dee_Binks likes this.
  7. Alexrd

    Alexrd Force Ghost star 5

    Registered:
    Jul 7, 2009
    Well, time is vital. In Amidala's case, people are dying while they are stalling.
     
  8. HevyDevy

    HevyDevy Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Apr 13, 2011
    Revenge of the Sith

    Now the most significant part of the trilogy, possibly even the apex of the saga. Bear with me.

    - Firstly, the title – Revenge of the Sith. The Sith’s revenge is wiping out the Jedi for defeating them centuries ago, taking control of the galaxy, and tragically turning the Jedi’s own chosen one into their biggest detriment.

    - The opening crawl is basically from the Republic’s point of view. It reads a lot like a news report (in the novelisation there are references to the Republic’s war efforts being publicised on the holonet).
    It labels the Sith Lord orchestrating the war as Dooku, without mentioning Sidious is behind it all. Grievous even states on the Jedi’s arrival “Just as Count Dooku predicted.” instead of just as Sidious predicted. Even Grievous thinks Palpatine is just his hostage. The description of the Battle of Coruscant is also from the public’s p.o.v, Palpatine will essentially let Dooku, Grievous, and eventually even the Jedi take the fall for the war.
    “There are heroes on both sides.” portrays a greyer time than the OT, and explains why Anakin is so confused. This is possibly the greyest episode in the saga. (Or maybe AOTC is? Everything in the prequels is so subjective.)
    “Evil is everywhere.” Balance of the force has gone out, and there is generally a stressful climate for the characters.
    Like TPM the crawl describes two Jedi on a mission involving the current Chancellor. “Always two there are.”





    - “I’m gonna go help them out!” “No. They are doing their job so we can do ours.”
    One of many moments that demonstrate Anakin’s empathy, and that he is loyal to people, contrary to Obi-Wan’s focus on the mission. Is rescuing Palpatine and killing Dooku really a mission they should be on? Also, perhaps reflects some of Anakin’s “attachment” for the clones? Finally, it is fitting that he is leading clonetroopers as Anakin, where he will soon lead stormtroopers as Vader, for the Empire.

    - “The mission! Get to the Chancellor, we’re running out of tricks here.”
    “I’m not leaving without you, Master.”
    Again, of course Anakin’s loyalty to his loved ones takes priority over pretty much any other instinct in Anakin, similarly even in pre-suit Vader.

    - Anakin fires at Obi-Wan to knock off the buzz-droids and damages Obi-Wan's wing, this foreshadowing highlighted by the tie-esque sound of Anakin's laser fire.

    - “The General’s ship is dead ahead.” sounds quite direct, like they are hurtling toward their untimely fate.





    - “I sense Count Dooku.” (ROTJ – “Vader is on that ship.”)
    “I sense a trap.” “Next move?” “Spring the trap!”
    I don’t think the Jedi are unintentionally made to sound overconfident here. Anakin is indeed in a confusing place, with both the Jedi and the Sith wanting him to take out Dooku. (Both Palpatine and Obi-Wan later congratulate Anakin on this feat.) Obi-Wan of course misses the nature of Dooku’s final moments.





    - “Get help, you’re no match for him, he’s a Sith Lord!” “Chancellor Palpatine, Sith Lords are our speciality.”
    One of the more ironic exchanges in the films, when you note the four people that are in the room when this is spoken.

    -“Twice the pride... double the fall!” – metaphor for Anakin’s turn.

    - Dooku states, much like Yoda in TPM, that he "senses great fear" in Skywalker. The quotes are kind of inverted, Yoda will encourage Anakin to let go of his fear, Dooku is telling Skywalker to turn fear, hate, and anger into a weapon.

    - “Kill him. Kill him now.”
    “I shouldn’t...”
    At this stage Anakin is still at conflict with his conscience.
    “Do it!”
    As I mentioned earlier, Anakin always looks to a lead for guidance, something perhaps left-over from his childhood as a slave.
    He takes orders from Watto. He asks his mom for permission to follow Qui-Gon and become a Jedi. He tries to adhere to the Jedi way as a padawan. He differs to Padme, and accepts her refusal regarding pursuing their relationship in the fireplace scene.
    And here, as on many occasions, Palpatine obviously steers him wrong.
    This trait in Anakin also seems apparent even after the turn... Obi-Wan commands him to release Padme when Anakin mistakingly believes she has joined Obi-Wan, Tarkin also commands Vader to release Motti from (a less dramatic) force-choke in ANH. And Vader is subservient to the Emperor to his near end.
    Padme: “Anakin, you’re going down a path I can’t follow!” Anakin: “Because of Obi-Wan?” (Can’t comprehend Padme coming to this conclusion alone. He can’t do similar himself, so why would she?). Padme: “Because of what you’ve done! What you plan to do!”
    Leia also echoes her grandmother’s and mother’s wisdom – “He has to follow his own path, no one can choose it for him.” Something Anakin arguably never learns to do.

    Anakin looks troubled and contemplative after he beheads Dooku, an internal struggle, and in my reading he is feeling the effect of once more giving in to the dark side. It will make further dark side acts come with less resistance.
    “He was too dangerous to be kept alive.” – Perhaps also too dangerous to Palpatine’s plans. Arguably Dooku still held some desire to build over the corruption in the Senate. Palpatine didn’t care as long as he was ruling.

    Palpatine rationalises Anakin’s actions to him as “only natural”. Ironically, Yoda will also mentor Anakin with the advice “Death is a natural part of life.” But of course, Yoda is not talking about killing. Finally, calling back to these two moments, Palpatine later hints at a way around the inevitable with stories of “abilities some consider to be unnatural.”





    - “His fate will be the same as ours.” Anakin defying Palpatine for now, similarly to Padme defying Palpatine when she wants to return home in TPM.

    - Obi-Wan regains consciousness – “Did I miss something?” Indeed he did. There seems to be a schism between Anakin and his light mentor (after Qui-Gon’s death), Obi-Wan. He is away from Anakin for the Tusken slaughter, Dooku’s death, and Order 66.

    With the elevator speeding towards them - “Oops!” - a hint of child Anakin surfacing here.





    - “You deserve your glorious day with the politicians.” Anakin is basically a celebrity in the Republic, and his intense position at the forefront of the galaxy’s struggles makes him more susceptible to corruption. His heroic efforts could also be an attempt to bury his own feelings of inadequacy (ie, “I wasn’t strong enough to save you.”)

    - “Chancellor Palpatine, what a welcome sight! Are you alright?”
    “Yes, thanks to your two Jedi Knights. They killed Count Dooku. But General Grievous has escaped once again”
    True on the surface. mikeximus has posted several times on the significance of this complex plot arc.





    - “I missed you.” (to Shmi)
    “I’ve missed you Padme.”
    Many significant links between Padme and Shmi in the films, Padme even senses Anakin’s feelings about it in TPM...
    Anakin: “I care for you to, only I...” “...Miss your mother.”

    And Shmi to Anakin (TPM): “Be safe.” ... Anakin to Shmi (AOTC): “I’m here mom, you’re safe.”
    Typho to Padme: “Be safe, m’lady.”
    Vader: “Where is Padme? Is she safe? Is she alright?”

    “If the Chancellor hadn’t been kidnapped I don’t think they ever would have brought us back from the Outer Rim Sieges.” – this was Palpatine’s scheming, he needs Anakin on Coruscant.

    Padme: “Not here!”
    Anakin: “Yes, here! I’m tired of all this deception, I don’t care if they know we’re married.”
    Padme: “Anakin, don’t say things like that.”
    Anakin’s passion for Padme, and strong desire to be unburdened from an increasingly stressful situation. This is actually setting up their confrontation on Mustafar much later in the film – where Padme will ask Anakin to run away with her and he just wants to rule the galaxy now. The Anakin of this early scene would have left with her for sure.
    Anakin is joyous about the pregnancy. There is significance in this; with a secret marriage the babies are really a double-edged sword. His desire to protect them, and save Padme from dying during birth, is his main motivation for turning. Yet the last remnants of his family will one day completely redeem him.





    - “The end of the war is near, General.”
    Yes, but he doesn’t mention which side will win.





    - Padme (teasing): “So love has blinded you?” Indeed.





    - Padme: “What’s bothering you?” Anakin: “...Nothing. I remember when I gave this to you.”
    Padme: “How long is it going to take us to be honest with each other?” Anakin: “...It was a dream.”
    Their honesty here is very important, it is something that is lost when Anakin falls; where he will start to decide he knows what is best regardless of Padme’s opinion, a shift from his boyish relative passivity in the first two films.
    This ROTS moment represents some maturity and growth in Anakin, they are much more a real couple than in the first two films. (Although I think in TPM the two are actually quite open with each other.) There is also clearly a symbolic call-back to TPM with the Japor snippet.
    In AOTC Padme is hiding her feelings from Anakin (and herself) and while Anakin often bares his feelings to her, he is similarly proud at times – “Jedi don’t have nightmares”. Likewise, he dodges the question at first in ROTS, but Padme pries and he opens up.

    - “You die in childbirth.” - This line is written and delivered very much like it is being told from a myth, like it is fated, has already happened.
    Padme: “And the baby?” Anakin (pained): “I don’t know.” – Significant, as Vader and the Emperor don’t realise the twins survive.





    - “Do you think Obi-Wan might be able to help us?” Anakin: “We don’t need his help. Our baby is a blessing”
    Anakin (to Palpatine): “Just help me save Padme’s life. I can’t live without her.”
    Luke: “But I need your help. I’ve come back to complete the training.” Yoda: "No more training do you require. Already know you that which you need.” (Fittingly, Yoda’s death scene, who Luke must let pass.)





    - Yoda’s advice for Anakin is more by-the-book than advice he gives when Luke faces similar premonitions. For Luke – “If you leave now, help them you could, but you will destroy all for which they have fought and suffered.” It is the same philosophy but arguably he has gained some wisdom in the execution by dealing with Luke's father years before.
    Yoda’s advice to Anakin - not to mourn lost loved ones, to “rejoice” - isn’t reflected by Luke when Obi-Wan, Yoda, and later even Anakin, passes away. Perhaps to make us question Yoda’s PT approach.





    - As I mentioned earlier, there seems to be a repeated theme of impetuousness, or a fast solution, relative to a more patient approach, in the PT.
    “With all due respect the ambassadors for the Supreme Chancellor would like to board immediately.”
    Qui-Gon: “Either way we are running out of time.”
    Padme: “The courts take even longer to decide things than the Senate!” ... “We must do something quickly to stop the Federation.” – largely leads to Palpatine’s election.
    Chasing Dooku - “There isn’t time! Anakin and I can handle this!” – They are both relatively quickly defeated by Dooku.
    “The Senate is expected to vote more executive powers to the Chancellor today.” “Well that can only mean less deliberating and more action. Is that bad? It will help us to end this war.” ... Palpatine (ROTS script): “This will help bring a quick end to things.”
    “The capture of General Grievous will end this war. Quickly and decisively we must proceed.”
    “Then now the time is, commander.” ... “If you have warriors, now is the time.”
    Mace: “We must move quickly if the Jedi Order is to survive.”
    “I am going to end this once and for all!”... “He has control of the Senate and the courts. He’s too dangerous to be left alive!” – partly what convinces Anakin to turn.
    Sidious: “We must move quickly. The Jedi are relentless.”

    Contrary to all this, Palpatine even states to Yoda after wiping out the Jedi Order – “I have waited a long time for this moment, my little green friend!” The Sith waited in hiding, biding their time until they could make their move against the stagnating Jedi.





    - Palpatine calls Anakin “son”. But is it just an endearing nickname, or to be taken literally?

    “They need you Anakin. More than you know.”

    Very true, and Palpatine intentional twisting the Jedi’s greatest asset into their greatest weakness makes him all the slimier.





    - Look at the tonal contrast in these two moments...
    Mace: “Take a seat, young Skywalker!”
    Palpatine: “You’re the best choice... by far. Sit down!”
    From Anakin’s perception; Mace coldly denying Anakin mastership and ordering Anakin to take his seat on the Council. Palpatine warmly offering Anakin a seat next to him as a friend at the opera... and by extension essentially offering him one of only two seats as a Sith in the galaxy. Anakin was never given this kind of treatment as a slave.





    - A point of view concept in Anakin being refused mastership after Palpatine requests he is appointed to the Council.
    “Put me on the Council and not make me a Master? It hasn’t been done in the history of the Jedi, it’s insulting.”
    “To be on the Council at your age, it’s never happened before.”
    Both points of view are valid. The Jedi reasonably think Anakin is too arrogant and immature, but are they biased - out of fear - against letting him earn this right based on his adequate talents? And if their view of Palpatine is colouring their treatment of Anakin so much, are they pushing Anakin further away from the Order?
    Similarly, both the Jedi and Palpatine are hiding things from Anakin, and from each other; Palpatine is just better at cloaking it. For example, Palpatine appears to grant Anakin Jedi mastership knowing the Jedi will reject it and disappoint Anakin, where the Jedi appoint Anakin to the Council openly admitting (through Obi-Wan) they are only appointing him so he can spy on Palpatine.
    Obi-Wan: “Be careful of you friend, Palpatine.” A fair while later – Palpatine: “Be careful of the Jedi, Anakin.”
    It is also telling that Anakin’s first meeting on the Council is just the Jedi discussing the Outer-rim sieges, not something related to the deeper struggle or the force. With Anakin present they tend to only divulge things they are happy to have reported to the Chancellor, who they are suspicious of and are essentially lumping Anakin in the same category as.





    - Obi-Wan’s words “This assignment is not to be on record.” unfortunately paints the Jedi in a bad light. Their secrecy is justified, as Palpatine moves closer and closer to controlling their order. Again, Anakin is loyal to people more than ideologies; “Anakin, our loyalty is to the Senate, not to it’s leader, who has managed to stay in office long after his term has expired.” “The Senate demanded he stayed longer!” Plus Anakin only agrees to spy on the Chancellor because Obi-Wan asks him to personally.

    - “Very dangerous, putting the two of them together. I don’t think the boy can handle it. I don’t trust him.”
    But they still decide to push Anakin into it.





    - The_Phantom_Calamari elaborated on this for me.
    Both TPM and AOTC mention a communications disruption signifying invasion, first by the TF, then by the Republic, respectively.
    Padme implores to her husband - “This war represents a failure to listen. Now, you’re closer to the Chancellor than anyone... please ask him to stop the fighting and let diplomacy resume!”
    The key point; when communication stops, the fighting begins.





    - The opera scene. I’ve talked about this pretty extensively in the past, some on these threads - Palpatine ... Anakin
    But hopefully not repeating myself too much...
    The scene starts with Anakin “running to his Master” much like we are introduced to Anakin with Watto in TPM.
    Palpatine and his entourage, and other patrons, look a little classy, even oblivious to the ravaging effects of the war on the galaxy. Perhaps referencing the peak of the Republic, and the Republic’s citizen’s being seduced.
    The performance they are watching of course symbolises fertilisation, simultaneously with Palpatine referencing the “power to create... life”. And it hints at Anakin’s possible origins. Plus the seed of doubt, betrayal, and a thirst for greater knowledge, is being planted in Anakin’s “fertile” mind.
    “You’re the best choice, by far.” is ironic because if they did choose Anakin he wouldn’t be with Palpatine to be seduced.
    The scene is full of wordplay by Palpatine, he repeatedly makes Anakin feel like he is reaching a forced conclusion naturally, such as with “Remember back to your early teachings.”
    Palpatine’s claim “All who gain power are afraid to lose it.” I suspect he knew Mace’s actions would later confirm at the crucial moment.
    I like McDiarmid’s tone when he recalls the fact Plagueis was afraid only of “losing his power”, acknowledging the earlier moment in the conversation.
    “The Sith and the Jedi are similar in almost every way.” Jedi and Sith parallels (end of pg 4)
    Anakin states “The Jedi use their power for good” – not denying the Jedi hold great power.
    “The Sith rely on their passion for their strength. They think inwards, only about themselves.” – A hint Anakin is knowingly giving into selfishness when he turns?
    “It’s not a story the Jedi would tell you.” [face_laugh]
    Wordplay – “Tragedy”, “The wise” and “Ones he cared about” subconsciously influence how Anakin sees the Sith.
    “His apprentice killed him in his sleep” can be a metaphor for Palpatine’s blindness to Vader’s coming betrayal at the climax of ROTJ.
    “Well, what happened to him?” sounds youthful, Anakin hanging on Palpatine’s every word.





    - Obi-Wan mentions during he and Anakin’s warm farewell “I have taught you everything I know.” A hint that Anakin wants teachings Obi-Wan just can’t provide. “Not from a Jedi.”





    - There are some links between Anakin’s turn and the Clonetroopers’ betrayal.
    Obi-Wan: “He won’t let me down. He never has.” (But Anakin does)
    Cody: “Hey, when have I ever let you down?” (Later turns on Kenobi)
    Later, Mace dismisses both Cody (via hologram) and Anakin from the meeting before divulging “I sense a plot to destroy the Jedi.” Indicating he doesn’t quite trust them, and also lending credence to Anakin’s claim in the next scene “More and more I get the feeling I’m being excluded from the Council.”





    - Anakin’s second vision we see is different, and now includes Obi-Wan. “Always in motion is the future.” Are Anakin’s actions as his paranoia and fear grow perhaps already changing the outcome?
    “Obi-Wan’s been here hasn’t he?” He senses the after-effect of Obi-Wan’s presence in the room. Starting to display tinges of the dark side, this suspicion explodes into a full-blown accusation of betrayal on Mustafar. And is also a remnant of a love-triangle more prominent in earlier versions of the script. In the final cut, the perceived betrayal is less romance-based.

    “I feel lost.”
    When Luke is acting on a premonition in ESB – Obi-Wan: “I don’t want to lose you to the Emperor the way I lost Vader!”
    “Obi-Wan and the Council don’t trust me.” Padme: “They trust you with their lives!”
    True about Obi-Wan, untrue about Mace (in their own words, afterall). Although Mace’s fears prove founded later when his life is in Anakin’s hands and Anakin betrays him.

    “You expect too much of yourself.” This is so appropriate, as Anakin wanting to single-handedly achieve everything for himself, Padme, his extended family, and the galaxy, is his main motivation for turning. This is inward focus is a dark side trait. And Padme’s sound advice falls on deaf ears. She knows him deeply, yet she can't help him.





    - “There’s no war here. Unless you brought it with you!”
    Can reference the Jedi involved in starting the war, bringing the fight to the Outer Rim. And the Republic’s forces will indeed soon arrive cued by Obi-Wan’s lead.

    - Grievous: “It is a volcanic planet. You will be safe there.” Gunray: “Safe? Hmmph! Chancellor Palpatine managed to escape your grip General. Without Count Dooku I have doubts about your ability to keep us safe.”
    Decidedly paradoxical, Palpatine has them all, including soon to be disposed of Grievous, in his grip, and this is absolutely why they aren’t safe. And Count Dooku’s death means they are all next on the list.

    - Greivous: “Army or not, you must realise... you are doomed.” The Jedi Order is doomed largely at the hands of the Clones themselves.





    - KI-ADI-MUNDI: If he does not give up his emergency powers after the destruction of Grievous, then he should be removed from office.

    MACE WINDU: That could be a dangerous move ... the Jedi Council would have to take control of the Senate in order to secure a peaceful transition . . .
    KI-ADI-MUNDI: . . . and replace the Congress with Senators who are not filled with greed and corruption.
    YODA: To a dark place this line of thought will carry us. Hmmmmm. . . . great care we must take.
    The reality of the Jedi’s intentions is a much lighter version of what Palpatine claims the Jedi were plotting. Repeatedly dismissing Anakin while it was discussed was a short-sighted move. Their attitude is integral to a self-fulfilling prophecy. Anakin being trusted with their point of view on it was crucial.





    - “It’s upsetting to me to see the Council doesn’t seem to fully appreciate your talents.” – I’m sure seeing Anakin not reaching his “potential” by being a Sith is upsetting to Palpatine ;) .

    - Wordplay - “If one is to become a complete and wise leader, one must study all aspects of the force...”
    “One” implies anyone can follow this path, “complete” is exactly how Anakin doesn’t feel without Shmi (then Padme), and Anakin greatly respects wisdom. And as a slave has never been treated like a leader – not that Palps genuinely plans to change this.

    - Padme: “What’s bothering you?” Anakin: “Nothing.”
    ...
    Padme: “What is it? Anakin: Nothing.”
    ...
    Palpatine: “I know what’s been troubling you!”
    Palpatine knows Anakin better than anyone, better than Anakin knows himself.

    - “I will quickly discover the truth of all of this.” – Tragically he never does until ROTJ.





    - “So uncivilised”. – Symbolises “a more civilised age” is nearing it’s end.





    - “Master, the Chancellor is very powerful. You’re going to need my help if you are going to arrest him.”
    Shows he thinks Palpatine is a pathway to power, and is worried he will be killed.
    “I must go, Master.”

    “If what you have told me is true, you will have gained my trust.” Mace unfortunately trusted him only at the very end.

    - Saga self-imposed prisons theme –
    Qui-Gon: “Stay in that cockpit!”
    Mace: “Remain on Tattooine.”
    Mace: “Wait in the Council chambers until we return.”
    Vader: “Things will be different, I promise! Please, wait for me.”
    Four disobeyed requests, with varying results.





    - “The oppression of the Sith will never return.” – Exposition referencing a pre-Republic Sith Empire.
    Palpatine rarely outright lies, but at the crucial moment he lies that he “has the power to save the one (Anakin) loves”. Is Palpatine nervous?
    “Don’t let him kill me...” Sounds distant, fading, weaker. Portrays Anakin’s perception of Palpatine and his power about to be lost forever.
    “He’s too dangerous to be left alive!” Anakin’s head swimming, he hears an echo of Palpatine’s similar statement about Dooku. In a confused and stressful state the difference in each order appears to blur, and Anakin already has a selfish personal motivation. “I need him!”





    - “You’re fulfilling your destiny, Anakin.” - Subverting the prophecy and perhaps fulfilling one of Palpatine’s own?
    “I pledge myself to your teachings.” Anakin’s true motivation is in the wording, he needs Palpatine’s knowledge. He may already be planning to overthrow him, then return as a “grey-sider”, but Anakin doesn’t know it is a one-way ticket.
    “To cheat death is a power only one has achieved.” – Plagueis or Qui-Gon?
    “Because the Jedi don’t trust you, my young apprentice, I feel you are the only Jedi with no knowledge of this plot.” – telling a point-of-view truth, as he often does.
    “When the Jedi learn what has transpired here they will kill us...” is likely true, but...
    “...along with all the Senators.” is Palpatine outright lying once more.

    “I agree. The Council’s next move will be against the Senate.”
    Hayden made an interesting comment once, (from memory) that everything Anakin is basing his rationalisation on is a deception, and it can be quite real if you allow yourself to be deceived too. And Lucas states tellingly on the ROTS commentary - when Anakin tells Padme “I saw Master Windu attempt to assassinate the Chancellor himself.” – Here Anakin is lying to Padme, and as he is lying to Padme, he is lying to himself.

    “We will catch them off-balance.” The Jedi, by Palpatine’s machinations, are vulnerably spread thin across the galaxy. But this may also hint at the unbalance in the force, the Jedi at the wrong end of it.
    “Once more the Sith will rule the galaxy. And we shall have peace.”





    - Order 66. The soulless nature of the Clone army comes across in how free of conflict they are when they switch. Cody has a friendly exchange with Obi-Wan, returning his battle-mates dropped saber, then gets the transmission from Palpatine and instantly orders Kenobi killed without hesitation. The sudden turn is particularly noticeable considering this “lost saber” motif is recurring between “brothers” Anakin and Obi-Wan as well.

    Palpatine’s wording – “The time has come.” So did the clones always know they were going to do this?

    “Master Skywalker, there are too many of them, what are we going to do?”
    The betrayal here really hits home with the child addressing Anakin as “Master”. Completely depending on Vader for guidance, yet being shown no mercy.
    And “too many” is also how Dooku described the Clone army invading in their first battle on Geonosis, not divulging to the Separatists that he was behind it, and will eventually betray them too. Thirdly, the Emperor’s trap for the Rebel fleet in ROTJ involves a Rebel pilot stating there are “too many” tie-fighters. Seems very tied to the oppressive might of the Empire, and betrayal.





    - R2-D2: *Panicked beep* C-3PO: “Hush, not so loud.” The mood of what is transpiring reflected by our narrator droids, some softness to soothe the harshness of what we have just watched.

    Anakin mentions his loyalty to the Senate, which Sidious is keeping together at face value for the time being, to dupe the Republic people into thinking they have “passed their trial” (from declaration of Empire scene), and to convince Vader he is deserving of the title “the only Jedi who remained loyal to the Republic.”

    His claim of loyalty to Padme is from his point of view only, as it is a betrayal to kill for her.

    C-3PO: “Well, he is under a lot of stress Artoo.” Threeepio rationalising where Artoo is fearing the truth. He knows Anakin’s aura is off. He later beeps another concern when Anakin sternly tells him to wait with the ship on Mustafar, and after the Immolation scene he follows Obi-Wan onto Padme’s ship like he has forgotten Anakin was his Master entirely.

    “I feel so helpless.” 3PO as narrator for the audience.





    - The fake signal, for Jedi who survived to return to the Temple and into a trap, Bail describes “says the war is over.” A point of view truth, and the same thing Sidious promised to the doomed Separatist leaders.





    - “If into the security recording you go, only pain will you find.” – Did Yoda deduce what had become of Anakin?

    “Send me to kill the Emperor. I will not kill Anakin.” Obi-Wan indeed can’t bring himself to finish Anakin off, he fought defensively for most of the duel, and warned Anakin against Vader’s final mistake.

    Obi-Wan (to Yoda): “He is like my brother, I cannot do it.”
    Obi-Wan: “He has become a very great threat.” Padme: “I can’t.”
    Luke (to Obi-Wan): “I can’t kill my own father!”

    “I don’t know where the Emperor has sent him... I don’t know where to look!” Obi-Wan making an excuse, which Yoda sees through.

    - “I have seen a video hologram of him... killing younglings.” “Not Anakin... he couldn’t!”
    Anakin couldn’t, but Vader on the other hand...





    - CAPTAIN TYPHO: My Lady, let me come with you.

    PADME: There is no danger. The fighting is over, and . . . this is personal.
    CAPTAIN TYPHO: As you wish, My Lady . . . but I strongly disagree.
    PADME: I'll be all right, Captain.
    This is something I must do myself. Besides, Threepio will look after me.
    C-3PO: Oh, dear.
    Again, the Republic, now Empire, still looks peaceful on the surface, similarly to her husband, for now.. And Padme doesn’t realise there is danger, within Anakin. She is heading for a planet 3PO will later refer to as a “dreadful place”, narrating the tone of the environment their tragedy reaches it’s climax on.





    - An inside joke regarding C-3PO and flying –
    TPM: “I can assure you they will never get me onto one of those dreadful starships.”
    AOTC: “I’m not worried, it’s just that I’ve never flown before.”
    ROTS: “You know, I think I’m beginning to get the hang of this flying business.”
    *His memory is erased*
    ANH: “I’d forgotten how much I hate space travel!”





    - “It is finished then. You have restored peace and justice to the galaxy.”
    Padme (later): “At what cost?”





    - Padme: “Come away with me. Help me raise our child, leave everything else behind while we still can!” Padme much earlier told off Anakin for saying “I don’t care if they know we are married.” but now desperation and circumstance has her wanting similar. But Anakin has lost sight of his initial intentions; “Don’t you see? (ironic statement as “love has blinded” him). We don’t have to run away anymore! I have brought peace to the Republic (echoing Palpatine). I am more powerful than the Chancellor, I can overthrow him! (he was arguably planning this when he pledged to Sidious, but his reason for doing so has shifted even further). And together you and I can rule the galaxy! (says same to Luke in ESB). Make things the way we want them to be!”

    “You have allowed this dark Lord to twist your mind...”
    Anakin was told what he wanted to hear.





    - “You will not stop me. Darth Vader will become more powerful than either of us.”
    Sidious actually wanting the Sith line to continue strong, even at risk of his own death? And a hint at what Vader was envisioned to truly be for Palpatine, before being defeated.





    - “Into exile I must go. Failed I have.”





    - “I have failed you Anakin, I have failed you. I could never teach you to think!”

    - “It was said that you would destroy the Sith, not join them! Bring balance to the force, not leave it in darkness!”





    - “Medically, she is completely healthy. For reasons we can’t explain we are losing her.”
    It's juxtaposition with Vader’s construction, and the death of the good in Anakin, implies a mystical death. Anakin screams in pain during rebirth, Padme screams in pain during birthing.

    “We need to operate quickly if we are to save the babies”. One last instance alluding to the desperation, prematurity, and impatience running rampant in the film.





    - “There is good in him. I know there is still...”
    @The_Phantom_Calamari posted some pretty deep speculations on Padme here.





    - “To be the eyes, ears, and voice of the Republic.”
    We see Vader’s new crimson electronic vision. – The eyes.
    “Lord Vader, can you hear me?” – The ears.
    “Yes Master.” – And the iconic voice of the Empire.

    - “It seems in your anger, you killed her.” – a metaphor; not the force-choke, but his turn itself - the dark side - killed her.





    - AOTC: Cliegg: “Your mother is dead son, accept it.” (When his mother is still alive.)
    ROTS: Vader: “She was alive! I felt it!” (Wife was alive at that time. He didn’t physically kill her.)
    ESB: “With the amount of damage we’ve sustained they’re bound to be destroyed.” Vader: “No captain, they’re alive.” (Daughter and Han are alive.)





    - Yoda: “An old friend who has returned from the netherworld of the force. Your old master.”
    Links to ESB – Yoda: “Through the force, things you will see. The past, the future. Old friends long gone.”
    And the identity retention ability comes into play in ANH, after Vader states “A tremor in the force. The last time I felt it was in the presence of my old Master.” Obi-Wan, in a role-reversal relative to Qui-Gon in the PT, sacrifices himself and achieves immortality.





    - “Hidden safe, the children must be kept.”
    Like many mentors in the six films, Obi-Wan will watch over his potential apprentice from afar. Leia will be raised with a loving family. There is implication that the twins being raised naturally by common parents until adulthood gives them the emotional and psychological maturity to succeed where their parents failed. The force seems to need some time of recovery before Luke and Leia are awakened for their destinies.
     
  9. HevyDevy

    HevyDevy Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Apr 13, 2011
  10. Cryogenic

    Cryogenic Force Ghost star 5

    Registered:
    Jul 20, 2005

    Such a mountain to climb!

    But what a delight, what a challenge!

    I'll need some time, HD. But skimming over your last post, I immediately noticed something to comment on:




    That's a great insight. It actually goes quite well with Threepio earlier telling Artoo, just as the lovers are about to be reunited in the shadows of the Republic, that he "could do with a tune up" himself. Similarly, just before Threepio says that, he rebukes Artoo and tells him, "It couldn't possibly be as bad as all that". Threepio is equally given to denial/rationalizing in the latter scene you describe, which links these scenes up quite nicely, making for a discreet set of "mini motifs" consistent with Artoo and Threepio's relationship across the wider saga.

    Artoo is rather excitable at various points in ROTS; even Anakin tells him, "Easy, Artoo" when they're coming in to land on Coruscant. Seems he just keeps getting ignored/dismissed/not taken too seriously. He freaks out, posits danger, burbles to himself -- and it's all to no avail. No wonder Lucas calls Artoo his favourite character in the DVD commentary. Also, Threepio, as the "conscious" component of the Star Wars brain (versus Artoo: the subconscious) has a jittery nature, but also plays everything down. It's like he has become immersed in the "polite" society of upper-echelon Coruscant a bit too long. Artoo is the "blue collar" mechanic with street wisdom whose worries and slightly anti-social graces aren't well-tolerated.

    All this time, I've seen Jar Jar as the robotic analog of Jar Jar, but now I realize that Artoo has some Jar Jar-ness to him (it's all relative). Very amusing, actually, that Threepio tells Artoo not to be so loud, when this is basically the disposition many fans had (and seemingly still have) toward Jar Jar (even Padme cuts him off in AOTC); though Jar Jar is very subdued in ROTS (his baritone "excuse me" in the "Happy Reunions" scene contrasting well with his childishly loud "exsqueeze me!" when he first meets the Jedi and announces himself to the world in TPM). Sorry, this is a bit compressed. All in all, I think the droids might still be an underappreciated component of the Star Wars mythos; especially due to their more limited/faded-out presence in ROTS. But as you have articulated, they still add a good deal of colour and framing in the proverbial "11th Hour" (indeed, right on through to Threepio's horrified reaction to being mind-wiped as the last spoken outburst of the prequel trilogy).






    Just wanted to add here that, as I've said previously, Threepio's remark is overtly (or perhaps implicitly) among the silliest lines in ROTS -- and rightly so. Well, I don't think I've ever said that before, but what I remember saying previously is how weirdly "contemporary"-sounding and grossly reductive and plain jarring (but in a good, sneaky way) it is to hear Padme saying to Anakin, "He says (Obi-Wan) you've been under a lot of stress." So for Lucas to then have Threepio repeat the term is almost tragically hilarious. Very glib. The phrase is basically passed from mentor (though we never hear him say it), to wife, and finally, to "golden rod"-"helper" droid (the "helper" droid who feels, yes, "helpless"), as if this could possibly elucidate something profound about Anakin's mental and spiritual disintegration. A lot of stress. Thanks, Threepio! Of course, the word is also a touch surrealistic (stress) because it is also a term in physics to describe a body subject to applied force -- and Anakin is a body (or machine) under the force of the Force (his own derealization). But, basically, you hear that term and it is slightly to laugh; like the way THX describes his anguish to a fakely-sympathetic "Jesus" counsellor (pre-recorded message) in Lucas' first film after LUH messes with his medication and he begins to lose his hold on bland reality.


    One last thing. At least Threepio (unhelpfully) admits he feels helpless. It's sort of the opposite of Anakin (his maker) -- who craves more and more power to chase away his fears and uncertainties. There's some wonderful irony in that. And irony is ever at work in these movies.
     
  11. Qui-Riv-Brid

    Qui-Riv-Brid Force Ghost star 5

    Registered:
    Apr 18, 2013
    That post could choke a tauntaun!

    I'll have to take this home for study.
     
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  12. HevyDevy

    HevyDevy Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Apr 13, 2011
    Thanks Cryo!
    Interesting contribution, I hadn't thought of those.

    I do agree that the "under a lot of stress" thing is an ironic understatement.


    Forgot to tag Tonyg and
    @{Quantum/MIDI}
     
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  13. Tonyg

    Tonyg Jedi Master star 3

    Registered:
    Jan 16, 2016
    Now, where to begin, as said Bilbo in the beginning of LOTR (the first movie). :)
    Amazing post and sooo much to comment. I'll enlighten some details and later other things.
    First, people vs. causes is a great theme in the PT. It is presented as people vs. duty but I don't think that choosing the people is presented as flaw, at least not in the case of Anakin and generally. Anakin chooses people instead of duty and he does it right, he does it wrong when he chooses his ego instead of others.
    Anakin chooses to save his mother instead of obeying Jedi's orders. Was he right? Yes, she was in big trouble, he was mistaken to wait too long. Of course, he shouldn’t go for revenge, i.e. wipe out the Tusken village but my point is that if he did't go to Tattoine he would never be able to say goodbye to his mom. After this he disobeyed quickly to Mace's order when Padme offered him a solution to help Obi Wan (as Anakin actually wanted).
    When Padme fell from the clonetrooper's vehicle Obi Wan asked Anakin what Padme would do in his place. The answer was she would do her duty. Well, wrong. Padme has always be on duty on the others. This was her life's creed. You can see it still in TPM, when she says always "my people" and never "my country" or "my planet" or something like that. In AOTC, she chooses to go with Anakin no matter that he never asked for that. She chooses to help Obi Wan, no matter that she was in danger. And last, but not least, when she awakes in the sand of the surface of Geonosis she chooses to go to help Anakin. Not to mention ROTS. There is obvious how she always chooses to help the love of his life no matter what important causes exist. (the conversation between her and Obi Wan in the veranda shows this very clear). So Padme also choose people, not some abstract greater good that actually ignore the people who are 'behind' this greater good. That's why she and Anakin match even in this.

    Actually, justifying unacceptable act with the goal of the greater good is the Sith way and when Anakin does that he begins to fall under the shadow of the Dark Side. Of course, sometimes the cause is to save the people, this is the real greater good (speaking generally) but my points when someone begins to justify his/her actions with a greater good, often is lost. Such greater good in OT is to kill Vader. Luckily, Luke makes the same choice as his mother (and as his father when he was still Anakin). That's why he wins.
     
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  14. HevyDevy

    HevyDevy Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Apr 13, 2011
    Thankyou!



    Interesting. I agree that Anakin's attachments are a grey area, that end up saving him in the end. And Luke's attachments in the OT clearly make him a better person.

    I would argue they possibly are presented as a bad thing in the PT however. Going to rescue Shmi too late is presented as Anakin's downfall, it is questionable how early he would have had to go to avoid this. She was freed before she was kidnapped, so I don't know if the Jedi not personally freeing her is the mistake necessarily. But clearly they just want him to forget her, rather than the Jedi showing the wisdom to check on her situation at some stage in the ten years. I do agree that it isn't love that births Vader, rather the self-focused desire to preserve it.



    I like that moment. Even though they just end up captured with Obi-Wan, their effort is genuine. I preferred the deleted scene where Padme tries to bargain for Kenobi's life to the final cut, it adds relevance to "maybe I can find a diplomatic solution to this mess" when they arrive. And refusing Dooku's invitation to join his "rebellion" shows she still has faith in the Republic at this stage, but will seriously be questioning it by the events of ROTS.


    I've argued this too, I think her immediate desire to get to the hangar when she wakes up indicates she is more worried about Anakin than anything. Padme perhaps, as a non-Jedi, is allowed to be more human than Anakin.


    Well put.
     
  15. HevyDevy

    HevyDevy Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Apr 13, 2011
    Would be interested to hear your thoughts :)


    Alexrd
    Did you have anything you want to dispute now the thread is finished?


    Also, for some reason it wouldn't let me tag @{Quantum/MIDI} before.
    Edit -hmm I guess he is untagg-able :p
    Well he might read the thread regardless.
     
  16. Alexrd

    Alexrd Force Ghost star 5

    Registered:
    Jul 7, 2009
    Maybe, but like I said, it's too long.

    I'll give it a read once I have a bit more time. ;)
     
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  17. The Supreme Chancellor

    The Supreme Chancellor Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Sep 4, 2012
    [face_dunno] After reading the first few lines..dude, Anakin never tells Jar-Jar that fear attracts the fearful...he's 10 lmao. That's the line from the Darth Maul TV spot.
     
  18. HevyDevy

    HevyDevy Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Apr 13, 2011
    It's from the Phantom Menace script.... o_O

    Maybe you wouldn't have the impression he wouldn't say that if it wasn't cut.

    Everything in the thread is either in the movie or official released scripts. Try reading past the first few lines next time.
     
  19. Negotiator1138

    Negotiator1138 Jedi Padawan star 1

    Registered:
    Mar 23, 2016
    Well Hevy, I started off with the ROTS, I will tackle the first two later, but I must say wow! Excellent break down of the dialogue with supplemental images thrown in there (such as the fertilization/opera scene).

    (I would add that the opera scene is compounded in importance by the fact that George Lucas defines Star Wars as a 'space opera,' so naturally the actual 'space opera' scene might just be important.)

    To anybody who is daunted by its length, I'd say take it one movie at a time, because HevyDevy really does a wonderful job of breaking down the lines and connecting them to the themes at large in the saga as well as the defining character moments for Anakin Skywalker.

    The Flanneled One himself has stated that his worst skill is dialogue, and that is often the number one criticism thrown at the prequels (actually number 2 behind Jar Jar). This criticism though really only applies to the interaction of characters as played by actors. For example, the famous Harrison Ford phrase "George you can type this s#!t, but you sure can't say it." This criticism is obviously not the subject of my post, I'm simply trying to define two separate parts of Lucas-written dialogue. The text, which receives heavy criticism, and the subtext, which is largely ignored by the masses.

    The subtext of the dialogue though should be judged completely separate. As evidenced by Hevy here, the subtext of what these characters are saying is absolutely packed with rich mythological and thematic story material. Due to it being subtext, most people aren't willing to peer past the actual text.

    Really great stuff HevyDevy!
     
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  20. Subtext Mining

    Subtext Mining Jedi Knight star 3

    Registered:
    Apr 27, 2016
    That's a very interesting take; to suggest Anakin was wrong when he answered "She would do her duty."
    Was he just trying to appease Obi-Wan? Or was his answer really just incorrect?

    And therefore we have to ask; when Padme awoke and endeavored to get to the hangar (let's not discuss the controversy right now), was her thought on stopping Dooku or assuring the safety of Anakin & Obi-Wan?

    I, as well as most people, would assume Anakin's answer was correct, and that Padme's focus was mostly on stopping Dooku. But this is opening a whole new door for me. And really, it makes sense.

    [face_thinking] :D
     
  21. Tonyg

    Tonyg Jedi Master star 3

    Registered:
    Jan 16, 2016
    It is funny, but I have always thought that Padme is worried about Anakin more than anything. I mean, their simultaneous 'awakening" and her reaction when she entered the hangar : obviously she was mad of worries about him and she was right: he lost his arm, after all.
    For the record I had never seen this with the hangar as contradiction but as little insignificant mistake in the editing: they was flying on the clone 'helicopter' this vehicle is flying high enough to see more of the landscapes. They could noted the hangar before Padme's falling (as they obviously were close to the hangar). Or the clone soldier who also fell could connect to the command center or something like that. Is not big deal, I think just a quick shot of the entrance of the hangar before the falling would be enough to fix this so 'huge' mistake. Whatever, is not important, is important that Padme is seeking for help and she wanted to be there with Anakin. She never said to the soldier: contact the others and let's send troops to the hangar immediately (which would be more reasonable) she just wanted to go there and help to her beloved one and his friend. Is not Anakin desiring the same? ;)
    Ani and Padme are so cute. They match so much: even they are wrong about the other one in the same way. Yes, I must say that they choose people instead of causes when they are forced to make such choice. In general, both of them are dedicated to their causes and to what they do, but when is to choose between people and greater good, they choose the first one.
    In the case of Padme and the hangar of course she was thinking that is important to stop Dooku also, but first, it was not her idea to go to the hangar, she wanted to call for reinforcements first and second: the people are more important. She tried to stop Dooku ship as it passed around her, after all, it but in the second when she saw it was useless she immediately entered the hangar to search for Anakin. So Anakin was wrong; she would do what is necessary but only if it is not a treat to the people that she cares about.
    Anakin made one and quickly failed attempt to make the reverse choice, I mean to choose the cause and not the people (on Padme's ship on Tattoine) only because he felt guilty of what he had done and wanted to be better Jedi but when Padme gave him a solution he made what he always used to: go and try to save his friend. And Padme? She deliberately went with Anakin on Tattoine, being under the treat of assassins and being advised to stay on Naboo but still she wanted to help to the man she loved.
     
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  22. Qui-Riv-Brid

    Qui-Riv-Brid Force Ghost star 5

    Registered:
    Apr 18, 2013
    The interaction of the characters as played by the actors really has never got the actual credit it truly deserves for any of the Lucas movies. Some from the fans maybe but not actually in the wider context.

    It's all in service to the visual and musical storytelling anyway as the support it is but for many they can't get past the out of date dialogue style that Lucas always employed but some things are more out of date for some than others and the delivery style employed in the OT was more in tune with the then current style in some comedies and musicals at least while by the PT era what would have already been outdated was even more "hopelessly" so.
     
  23. HevyDevy

    HevyDevy Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Apr 13, 2011
    Agreed. Thankyou for your response btw.

    I do think people underestimate how often Lucas has the PT characters say something for a reason. The dialogue may not seem all that natural in it's flow, but there is rarely a throwaway line in the trilogy.
     
  24. HevyDevy

    HevyDevy Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Apr 13, 2011
    Lol, true. Very fitting he introduces his fable as "The tragedy of Darth Plagueis" ;).


    Thanks, glad it made sense to you :)
     
    Kenobi1138 likes this.
  25. HevyDevy

    HevyDevy Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Apr 13, 2011
    Anything that you want to discuss Cryogenic?
     
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