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PT Study of the PT. Don't take everything at face value.

Discussion in 'Prequel Trilogy' started by HevyDevy, Jan 5, 2017.

  1. mikeximus

    mikeximus Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    Jan 6, 2012
    HevyDevy

    Just to touch on this part:

    I think this scene is another one of those scenes that is often misunderstood or it's meaning is just completely overlooked. The scene is a mirror of Anakin (ROTS) and Luke (ANH)

    In ANH, Luke is making his trench run, while his wing men cover his backside. Luke's wing men are basically doing their job so that he (Luke) can do his. IN ANH, Luke's wing men fall far enough back from Luke that it forces the Tie Fighters to come in behind them. They know that they are pretty much dead, and they know they are sacrificing themselves so Luke can take his shot at the Death Star.

    The same thing happens in ROTS. Obi Wan calls in odd ball and his squad to cover them from behind. This forces the Vulture Droids and Tri-Droid Fighters to have to go thru Odd Ball and his squad first.

    So as Lucas has stated before, we see Father and Son go through very familiar situations.

    With Anakin in ROTS, the deeper meaning of the scene is that Anakin still has attachment issues. I come to that conclusion because the scene is also a reflection of AOTC, with Obi Wan's dialogue being very similar:

    Obi Wan (ROTS) No, they are doing their job so we can do ours

    Obi Wan (AOTC): If we catch him, we can end this war right now! We have a job to do!

    With the obvious similarities in Obi Wan's dialogue between the two scenes, I think it's clear that the two scenes are connected and with what the conversation in AOTC being about Anakin's attachments issues, I think it's safe to say that we are supposed to get that same feeling in ROTS. That Anakin has even grown attached to the clones, and is willing to put the mission in jeopardy to act on these attachments.

    Whereas Luke, knew what was at stake, and wasn't going to throw away the sacrifices of the Rebel Pilots that already had given their lives to act on his emotions, or even his emotional attachment to his friend Biggs. Which I think the meeting Biggs scene was a brilliant addition to ANH when the scene from ROTS is taken into consideration!
     
  2. Cryogenic

    Cryogenic Force Ghost star 5

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    Jul 20, 2005

    Plenty. :p
     
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  3. HevyDevy

    HevyDevy Jedi Master star 4

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    Apr 13, 2011
    Interesting points mikeximus.
    I agree with the links, I had vaguely noticed the noted similarity between ROTS and ANH, and between Obi-Wan's mentioning "the mission" in AOTC/ROTS. You have a good eye for the possible meaning.

    Cryogenic, is that a hint that you have something planned?
     
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  4. Cryogenic

    Cryogenic Force Ghost star 5

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    Jul 20, 2005

    Well, more a feeling, still, of being overwhelmed.

    But I definitely want to come back soon and add a few things.
     
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  5. HevyDevy

    HevyDevy Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Apr 13, 2011
    Fair enough, I had suspected it might be to do with that.

    Eagerly anticipating your input, this is a good place for your unique perspective, at least I think it would be appropriate.
     
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  6. Cryogenic

    Cryogenic Force Ghost star 5

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    Jul 20, 2005

    Thank you for the kind encouragement.

    Always dug your threads and input, HD, as you know. There are just so many angles...
     
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  7. Qui-Riv-Brid

    Qui-Riv-Brid Force Ghost star 5

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    Apr 18, 2013
    It's almost like there was a purpose to bring that scene in.

    Nah! It's all just total co-incidence.

    No way Lucas could be thinking about it that deeply.

    :D
     
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  8. Negotiator1138

    Negotiator1138 Jedi Padawan star 1

    Registered:
    Mar 23, 2016
    Okay, I've just finished the breakdown of TPM. The ideas of Symbiosis and Duality are ever present and I can't believe I'm saying this, but I've never noticed how it was perfectly represented by the engine's transfer of power! I absolutely love the podracing scene, but I'm always so amazed by the spectacle of it all, any literary value of it just flies over my head.

    Your breakdown of the dialogue was excellent as always, and in short period of time, I'll read through AOTC and give some feedback on that.
     
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  9. Billy_Dee_Binks

    Billy_Dee_Binks Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    Mar 29, 2002
    It's threads like this one that make me return to these boards time and time again. I haven't had the time to read the whole analysis yet, but I will, hopefully sooner than later.
     
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  10. HevyDevy

    HevyDevy Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Apr 13, 2011
    Thanks, let me know when you read it. Although I think my observations on episode two aren't quite as good as what I typed on the other two.

    I should note; the symbiosis theme reflected in the pod-engines moment I think has been mentioned here by someone else before. I can't recall who or when, but I vaguely remember it being posted.


    Cheers man. Your feedback is greatly appreciated.
     
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  11. HevyDevy

    HevyDevy Jedi Master star 4

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    Apr 13, 2011
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  12. Cryogenic

    Cryogenic Force Ghost star 5

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    Jul 20, 2005

    Aww, okay -- I'll see what can be done in the next few days. :)
     
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  13. HevyDevy

    HevyDevy Jedi Master star 4

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    Apr 13, 2011
    Sincerely looking forward to it.
    I think you are the best person to portray something of a deeper meaning in response to my less focused rambling :)
     
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  14. Cryogenic

    Cryogenic Force Ghost star 5

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    Jul 20, 2005

    That's doing me a high credit! I don't know.

    The prequel trilogy is this beautiful but very tough egg. Hard to crack open.

    Of course, various fans try in their own ways. But again, there are so many ways in...
     
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  15. Cryogenic

    Cryogenic Force Ghost star 5

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    Jul 20, 2005

    Just flicking over this...

    It also adds a bit more depth, perhaps, to ROTJ.

    In that, Luke is very determined to restore Anakin to goodness, despite the fact that, as Vader, he coldly wiped out Biggs; who, judging from the deleted scenes on Tatooine, was Luke's only real friend.
     
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  16. HevyDevy

    HevyDevy Jedi Master star 4

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    Apr 13, 2011
    During the trench run, Vader also confirmed the disparity between his present and once noble self by frying Artoo (on Luke's X-wing) as well. ;)
     
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  17. Cryogenic

    Cryogenic Force Ghost star 5

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    Jul 20, 2005

    Good catch!!! Droid abuse.

    Although, in TESB, he seems to (perhaps unconsciously) "save" Threepio from errant blaster fire from Boba Fett.

    Perhaps it's his obsession with Luke already "motivating" him, just a tad, to spare a relic from his past; or at least adopt a slightly conservative attitude toward helpless prisoners.
     
  18. HevyDevy

    HevyDevy Jedi Master star 4

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    Apr 13, 2011
    Ha ha, that moment (fan-theorised as something more) is pretty ironic either way.
    I wonder if Lucas noticed it and genuinely made it part of his internal canon. I don't think it is a stretch personally, I have held the view for a long time that when making the PT he was a lot more perceptive of such quirks in continuity than the detractors give him credit for.
     
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  19. Cryogenic

    Cryogenic Force Ghost star 5

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    Jul 20, 2005

    Indeed, HD.

    There is so much of this stuff. In TESB itself, Vader and Han meet in a rather abstract manner, directly facing each other for mere seconds, over a long table in "heaven"; the casque-faced dark samurai of Vader easily dealing with smuggler Han's unthinking blaster shots. They're like these two opposing forces of nature; and never the twain shall meet. One of the neat things about TFA (even though I've been quite critical of it) is the slightly shocking quality of hearing Han declare of Kylo, "There's too much Vader in him". It continues something alien and mysterious about the progression of Platonic absolutes in the main saga films that precede it. But it's TESB that really sets things up a particular way. Not only is there this weird, abrupt confrontation between Vader and Han, but there's the "odd couple" bickering between Han and Threepio (instead of Artoo and Threepio), Yoda and Artoo fighting over a lamp; and Luke seeing himself inside the mask of Vader. Wonderfully abstract developments; jarring meet-ups and superpositions; fitting of a vast, intricate, and unknowable mythologic masterpiece. To return to the Han-Vader thing, while they only directly face each other very briefly, Vader still gets to test/punish Han, first with electrical heat, then with carbon freeze. And he takes quite an interest in both instances; as if reliving his own fate.

    But that's just to indicate that there are these odd connections between entities in Star Wars. And that they do, indeed, seem quite deliberate. And even if they're not fully deliberate, well, they're there, aren't they? It is, of course, stated by Qui-Gon in TPM that Anakin is a "vergence" in the Force; as if he has the quality of somehow colliding and collapsing all these disparate aspects of the silver screen drama. Through Anakin's journey, in other words, across all six movies, we get to experience an alternate universe of forms, patterns, philosophies, textures, energies. None of this would exist without Anakin; his journey, in some sense, is the "motivator" for it all; the Jar Jar zip travelling through history; the ding of an entire universe. So the strange moment Vader appears to recognize Threepio, or have something sparked within him, is merely a curiosity to that end: a random blip on the radar that is Anakin Skywalker. Such is art, such is the universe. The faintest things we pick up today on our radio telescopes, for instance, or even the things that are so faint we can't yet detect them, may hold the keys to entire new regimes of understanding; things we can't yet conceive of. All these mini-happenings in Star Wars seem to underline something comedic and vast about the universe and our own connection to it.

    But to flesh out in more of a prequel way what you said... In AOTC, Lucas is cheeky enough to have Dex say, "It's these funny little cuts on the side that give it away." And this is in something of an amusing, one-off scene where Lucas blatantly references his own breakout (and middle) movie, "American Graffiti" (like Star Wars, it is not only visually abstract, but has a peculiarly oblique, nuanced view of not-quite-real recent history: a story being told in the shadow of (the Vietnam) war). Even better, he twice has a character use the term "parsec" as a measure of distance in AOTC (the Dex scene is the first instance; Padme trying to persuade Anakin to rescue Obi-Wan is the second), as if deliberately correcting (and calling attention to) the "flub" made by Han in ANH, where he seems to incorrectly use the term as a measure of time (also, interestingly, in a scene with an older Obi-Wan). This also makes Star Wars "The Parsec Trilogy" (or the "PT"! --> if it sucks that earlier mistake up into its own ether). Jango essentially hitting his head on the door of his ship, Slave I, as he retreats from Obi-Wan (Obi-Wan gets everywhere!) is yet another example of this property of AOTC and the PT more generally. What seems to have been a "mistake" in ANH becomes a gag/in-joke in AOTC; in the elaborate backstory, especially in the poetic middle, the "attachment" installment, are found weird quotations and adjustments. It is something like the two Death Stars, perhaps; and their "death" explosions. One complete, the other under construction; one dying horizontally (the bright explosion ring), one dying vertically (again: the bright explosion ring). All this hyper-structured duality of the saga -- it's awesomely maddening!

    P.S. I'm indebted to Will Brooker and his excellent monograph on the original film for the Han-Vader observation about their meeting in TESB. I give the book quote and a buying/product link in this earlier post of mine: http://boards.theforce.net/threads/anyone-prefer-the-force-awakens.50039242/page-36#post-53447614

    P.P.S. I'm not connected to Will Brooker in any nominal or discernible regard. Other than we're both keen Star Wars fans in our own way, I suppose. He's actually a bit critical of the prequels at the end of his book; but, in my opinion, it's a superb read nonetheless.
     
  20. HevyDevy

    HevyDevy Jedi Master star 4

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    Apr 13, 2011
    Great thoughts Cryo.

    True, I once thought there is some significance to Han's reaction to Vader appearing. Instantly he has his gun out, like completely on instinct. Seems quite ironic relative to the the nature of the journey Luke is currently going through, and like you say, it is a rare point of relevance when thinking about how Han indeed views Vader and his son.



    Interesting. Makes me think that while he obviously sees himself in Luke (particularly in setting a quite masochistic trap for his son on Bespin when Vader fell for the same reason), it seems Han gets the major part of the cold punishment he delivers. And Padme consoles Anakin after being dismembered by Dooku, much like Leia will nurture Luke on the MF after Luke's first confrontation with Vader. Is Vader really as detached in his perception of the (OT) trilogy's romantic leads as he once appeared?



    I don't know if I've said this to you before, but I think looking at the six films Luke is the main protagonist yet Anakin/Vader is kind of the fulcrum. Everything revolves around his arc(s) and without him there would far less a sense of balance over the six film arc, adding credence to Lucas's claimed intention that Anakin brings balance. Everything plays off him, his more micro personal decisions echo a far more macro effect, and I think Anakin/Vader is quite unconscious of this fact even for himself. He doesn't seem really aware of the extent of what he is doing until he is finally thanking Luke before death. It just seems there in Vader's mannerisms earlier in the films, like he is just doing what he has to, it isn't really something he can change. Like he has accepted his fate until Luke changes things.



    Wow, good thoughts.



    Again, great stuff. All I can add is another self-reference by Lucas; having Padme start her ship in ROTS with the button that held two completely different functions in AOTC. It transmitted Obi-Wan's report to Coruscant. Then showed the distances between Tattooine, Geonosis and Coruscant. Then Lucas, demonstrating his sense of humour and humility to admit his mistake, has it start the Ship entirely in Episode 3.
     
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  21. Qui-Riv-Brid

    Qui-Riv-Brid Force Ghost star 5

    Registered:
    Apr 18, 2013
    I don't know if HD got this one but it is another cool illustration of Lucas' dialogue:

     
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  22. HevyDevy

    HevyDevy Jedi Master star 4

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    Apr 13, 2011
    Nice. Their tied fates also arguably echoes back to Padme in ROTS, where she states "My fate will be no different from that of my people." then when she dies, the Republic's freedom goes with her.
     
  23. Cryogenic

    Cryogenic Force Ghost star 5

    Registered:
    Jul 20, 2005
    Okay, here's something. It's small, but HevyDevy wanted me to add more to his thread, and I know he loves these TPM-ROTS links, so...


    Qui-Gon:

    A warm, centred, confident Jedi Master who isn't on the Jedi Council, but doesn't care and almost seems smug about it.

    Anakin:

    A brooding, agitated Jedi Knight who is accepted onto the Jedi Council, but is denied the rank of "Master" and takes it as a great insult.


    And Obi-Wan:

    Chides Qui-Gon for not following the Jedi Code and not being on the Jedi Council and seems to feel that's what he should aspire to. Laments that the Jedi Council "will not go along" with Qui-Gon "this time".

    Chides Anakin for objecting that spying on Palpatine is against the Jedi Code and tells him to "calm down" about not being made a Jedi Master, but still believes that Anakin has been accorded a "great honour" by being put on the Council.



    Obi-Wan...

    Council blindness?

    Qui-Gon and Anakin...

    Temperamental opposites?
     
  24. HevyDevy

    HevyDevy Jedi Master star 4

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    Apr 13, 2011
    Thanx Cryogenic.

    It would also seem that; with Qui-Gon in his going against the Council, he is arguably correct and morally righteous. Whereas with Anakin it is an un-Jedi-like motivation sourced from his own inflated ego.

    And while Qui-Gon is comfortable being the only master not on the Council, Anakin laments being the only Council member not a Master.
    So many opposites. As I know I would have suggested to you at some stage before, I feel Lucas in his superstition purposely put this opposing push-pull balance in reflection of the PT arc being relatively spiritually cursed.
     
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  25. Cryogenic

    Cryogenic Force Ghost star 5

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    Jul 20, 2005

    It's fascinating how much of a yin-yang thing seems to be occurring between TPM and ROTS.

    One measure of this, perhaps, is also in how Qui-Gon gets himself some useful companions; even the "useless" (or perceived-to-be-useless) Jar Jar.

    He is somehow a lot more "open" to the world than the other Jedi; and certainly than Anakin seems to be in ROTS. Characters generally seem to become a lot more locked-off and suspicious and weary of one another in ROTS. Padme seems to pick on this with Anakin at certain points; almost like she is more attuned to the downturn in the Living Force that Qui-Gon spoke of than anyone else (but without really knowing it).

    Jar Jar himself is almost like this "happy energy" one can call on in times of need. Qui-Gon seems to keep him around something like a good luck charm; and Anakin gifts Padme the snippet which he says will bring her "good fortune". But in ROTS, this boundless promise is slipping away; the galaxy is sundering and rotting somehow from within. The Force has somehow become distorted by Palpatine's labyrinthine manipulations and the galaxy going to war.

    And Jar Jar is hardly to be seen anywhere. He appears unmoored, drifting, just there; but barely there. And under no-one's wing in particular. He isn't the elastic anti-Vader shadow he comes across as when he accompanies Qui-Gon on Tatooine in TPM. There is this unarticulated sadness about everything. Things have entered this foundered state and no-one dares to look down the well and admit how bad things have gotten. Except maybe Padme ("Have you ever considered that we may be on the wrong side?"); but Anakin soon snaps and shuts her down. Everyone seems fresh out of creative solutions; trapped in a matrix of fear and greed.
     
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