Suffering is the final test ?

i guess that is what it all comes down to.
because so far -- in Bloodlines - i have really bought into Lumiya and jacen's rationale for his motivation.

but i see no point to this final test -- that he must kill someone he loves.
now at the end of bloodlines he seems to believe its tenel ka and allana -- but i am only just starting tempest today -- so i dont know what happens in the next 2/3 books to change that.

but i am hoping that something further is in development for a reason why killing someone [after you already killed countless others] that is close to you is the final test.

to me -- this has to be lumiya pulling a fast one after all - despite her seeming to be so far above and beyond her old revenge shtick.

plauguies seemed to want to save the ones he loved -- sidious didnt seem to have anyone to love -- maul didnt either -- dooku killed his pal sifo-dyas, ok, i get that -- vader 'kills' padme --- but it didnt seem to be the final test over the course of the millenia.
who did bane kill?

anyway -- my point is i am wondering if this multi-book tale is still weaving its story towards why this seemingly blind action of killing someone you love is necessary.
i guess i can see how it pushes you over the edge of the dark side -- i just feel its a lot less complex -- and semingly too forced into jacen rationale -- he just agrees to it too fast - and it doesnt fit his M.O. too date.

anyone agree?

 

Well, if you go with the religious aspect of the Force, suffering seems to be all around you and your ability to keep the faith in your religion is what makes you a good whatever. If that's the way this whole thing is being played out, then it makes sense that a Jedi might have to suffer and keep faith in the Force to become a full-fledged Master.

 

Jacen has to sacrifice something he loves to become sith because Lumiya is using him to destroy Luke Skywalker. This is all about revenge for something Luke did in a Marvel comics story line 25 years ago that noone remembers, and when Jacen consults Sith holocrons it will result in the holocrons denouncing Jacen as a pretender.

 

It's difficult to go into this topic in too much detail without ruining Tempest, Exile & Sacrifice for you so I won't say too much and I'll try to be vague. I don't think the point of the sacrifice that Jacen has to make is related to suffering so much, it is more about severing ties to his past and showing a willingness to do what must be done regardless of any attachments he may have.

Which is somewhat strange, to become a Sith, who rely on their passion and emotions, Jacen effectively has to become detached and emotionless. Whereas the Jedi have emotions and attachments floating all over the place, which in this series is undermining their effectiveness. Whether the story was supposed to show this seeming turnaround I don't know, I guess we'll have to wait and see how everything unfolds.

Fear leads to anger. Anger leads to hate. Hate leads to suffering as Yoda says, but this doesn't appear to match up with Jacen that well. Sure he is certainly fearful of certain things which he believes he has to do, but anger, hatred, he is so detached at times that he barely seems to feel anything. Maybe the difference is that Jacen chose to accept the Sith and their teachings, rather than falling into it.

You must train yourself to let go or everything you fear to lose Yoda again of course, but it's strange that such a Jedi teaching seems to fit very well with what Jacen is doing given that he is becoming a Sith Lord.

 

Reading you say Plagueis wanted to save the ones he loved made me think of Vectivus.

I'd never thought about it before... but it makes Jacen seem rather dumb having heard the story of Darth Vectivus to then think he needs to go out and do something like that.

Silly Jacen.

 

Well, this is Jacen "I know the Force better than 25,000 years of Jedi and Sith study of it" Skywalker we're talking about.

 

Sith are corruptors of Jedi teachings.

There's a difference after all, between this and

'You must DESTROY everything you fear to lose.'

 

Of course, ironically Anakin ends up destroying that which he fears to lse and Jacen's loved ones are okay, thus far anyway, I'm expecting to have to edit that statement by the end of Invincible.

I was more refering to the seeming trend in LotF for Jacen as a Sith to be totally cold, bereft of emotion and passion, completely detached, when the Jedi (well the main characters that we see) have a number of problems arguably caused because of emotional attachments. When runs counter to the general ideas that Sith rely on passion and emotion, whereas as Jedi are able to remain detached enough to allow them to act without giving in to their emotions.

 

It's a willpower thing. A Sith exalts his own willpower above all. You have to force yourself to do something you would have regrets about doing to steel yourself.

Ever see The Usual Suspects?

"There was a petty gang of Hungarians that wanted their own mob. They realized that to be in power you didn't need guns or money or even numbers. You just needed the will to do what the other guy wouldn't.

After a while they come to power, and then they come after Soze. He was small time then, just running dope, they say. They come to his home in the afternoon, looking for his business. They find his wife and kids in the house and decide to wait for Soze. He comes home to his wife raped and his children screaming. The Hungarians knew Soze was tough, so they let him know they meant business. They tell him they want his territory - all his business.

Soze looks over the faces of his family... Then he showed these men of will what will really was. (at this point, Soze shoots his own wife and kids) He tells him he would rather see his family dead than live another day after this. He lets the last Hungarian go, and he goes running.

He waits until his wife and kids are in the ground, and he goes after the rest of the mob. He kills their kids, he kills their wives, he kills their parents and their parents' friends. He burns down the houses they live in and the stores they work in, he kills people that owe them money. And like that - he was gone."

It's that sort of thing.