I'm feeling wistful for the days when people arguing that it wasn't Luke Skywalker in Dark Empire

and frog rape in Jedi Academy

oh wait no not that

 

In most franchises, fans consider it desirable when the second part of a trilogy subverts expectations, resolves dangling story threads in surprising ways, and challenges preconceptions. The Star Wars fan community, meanwhile, creates conspiracy theories and complains that the trilogy isn't developing "organically."

 

Well, TFA was really predictable, so people complained about that. TLJ took that complaint away, so now they're complaining it's not "developing organically" since TLJ didn't continue the predictability trend. If it did, then they'd complain it was too predictable. They're going to complain no matter what.

 

We might have to agree to disagree, I and others felt 8 didnt do any of what was listed. It was a very play it safe film. Empire and Rebels, reliable character tropes like bitter old warrior a la Logan regardless of whether they fit the character of Luke etc.

Luke dying didn't make the film edgy any more than Data dying in ST Nemesis did.

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Not established in TLJ. You're already complaining that TLJ pooped on JJ Abrams in TFA with Rey's parents and Snoke, if TLJ threw this out you'd complain about that. But since it didn't you're complaining about it anyway.

In what way is Luke Skywalker at all comparable to Wolverine in Logan? Please explain.

How was Luke's passing supposed to be edgy? You're begging the question in assigning a motive toward it.

 

Rebellion begins was cited by Luke.

I don't think I would be complaining if I got a Snoke explanation. I just disagree with your statement that I'd still complain if I got one. It's not true.

I guess I just don't understand how some say TLJ shook up expectations, was "edgy" etc. So I assumed they meant Luke dying or something. Like I said, I don't find it "different" "not playing it safe" etc that others are seeing, so I'm understandably trying to see how others see it that way and thought maybe it was Luke dying.

Logan (Luke) doesn't want to help Laura (Rey) because he's old and bitter. The thing is, it's not what most people think of as Luke. Maybe that's how the film is "different"? Yes an explanation was sort of given but not really. Jim Phelps was also given an explanation for his character change in the first MI film. I feel its equivalent to Gandalf giving up after the Hobbit. LOTR was able to be a great story without this happening.

 

It's also not what I said. I said you'd complain if TLJ completely discarded the First Order/Resistance plotline, which you just complained about, even though this conflict wasn't novel to TLJ.

No one expected Luke to toss the lightsaber after Rey handed it to him. That's "shaking up expectations." Luke's characterization is not what people expected. It's the very thing you're complaining about.

But that's the thing. There's aspects of this movie that are completely predictable and follow the Star Wars formula, like you said "Empire and Rebels," and you complain about that. But there's aspects that are completely unpredictable, like Luke's characterization, and you complain about it. It seems that no matter what this film does, it's wrong.

That comparison is extremely reductive. Luke and Logan aren't motivated by this abstract sense of "bitterness."

 

I'm a little tired to go into blow by blow stuff. Yeah, I guess Luke throwing off the blade was edgy. Gambit arbitrarily deciding to join Apocalypse was edgy too, but made little sense (sorry if you didn't know this plotline). Colossus deciding to join Magneto was edgy but made sense since he was devastated Xavier failed to protect his sister. I feel I was looking for the latter edginess but got the former, wherein it doesn't feel edgy anymore but done for shock value.

I agree with Mr. Lucas that the film was very well made (has good production values, special effects). And Rian seems like a very nice guy. I think he and Mark became great friends despite their initial disagreement over Luke's chraracter. I don't think everything about the film is bad, I'm just not very happy about the story.

 

What?

 

The Thrawn trilogy, Dark Empire, and Jedi Academy weren't planned out at all (though KJA knew about the content of both TTT and DE when writing his). The joke being if that was them planning out the story they did a terrible job.

 

Ah. Yeah it wasn't planned out.

I guess because I'm such a continuity geek, I can't fathom a world where people writing the continuing adventures of a movie series WOULDN'T want their projects to flow. I write (well, used to) quite a bit, and I don't even get the whole not playing ball with other authors. Surely seamlessly tying your works together actually strengthens and improves your own work.

 

if you sit down and read the Bantam continuity in order out from Return of the Jedi, you'll see that in retrospect, they don't really run well at all, with characterization being all over the place, but even in simple details they don't

for instance, in Children of the Jedi, Luke thinks back to Jedi Academy trilogy and completely bungles the basic plot

 

Don't forget DE2 and EE being shoehorned in between DE and JAT after they'd finished publishing JAT...

 

I love how people with negative opinions of the ST are some hivemind of people who are predisposed to hate everything Disney makes and just come up with shallow excuses to hate it all. As opposed to the free thinking individuals with genuine reasons to dislike what they dislike who surely don't exist. It's not like plenty of TLJ critics liked TFA. It's not like plenty of ST critics liked Rogue One.

 

If my comment doesn't apply to you, then why are you taking offense? I wasn't referring to you.

#notallSThaters

 

I just don't think people have an agenda or whatever. I don't think anyone's "looking for reasons" to hate it.

 

people are going to complain no matter what

it's been happening since The Empire Strikes Back

 

What a mighty fine strawman you've constructed.

 

deja vu...

but you guys aren't really doing a good job of showing that you aren't just looking for things to whine about tbh

 

They're right though, I loved R1 but feel flat about VII and VIII even though I loved VII when it first came out. I avoided all spoilers and speculation of VIII to go in fresh and was super pumped for it because I'd heard such good things and it fell flat for me. I wasn't "looking" to hate it. I think anyone that is a genuine Star Wars fan and has been through 8+ movies would never look for reasons to hate a SW movie.

 

I don't think you were. Like I said, if it doesn't apply to you, it doesn't apply to you.

And it's also a matter of different groups disliking different things. If the film did something different, you might have liked it, but I might have disliked it.

 

You haven't exactly heard any of my personal opinions on the film. Not that there is much point in espousing them. You seem to be of the mind any criticism is just boiling down to 'looking for things to complain about'. Quite quick to disregard that valid opinions may exist and lumping large amounts of folks into a single line of thinking to criticize them broadly.

 

Well, if I haven't heard your thoughts, how could I possibly strawman them? I don't even know who you are so anything I say doesn't apply to you at all.

The reason you aren't doing a good job of not looking like you're not just looking things to whine about is you're getting butt hurt over something I said that had nothing to do with you. Why is that, if it's not accurate?

 

No it's your opinion that they aren't organic. Stories aren't immediately organic because they are planned out, and not organic because they aren't.

 

I'm pointing out you decided 'people' were a collective predisposed to hating TLJ regardless of reasoning. I figure you know better than that, but you're seemingly butthurt about people not liking a movie.