Suppose Lucas is making this up as he goes?

Ok everyone seems to be forgetting TPM. What about Obi Wan's comment in opening scenes of the TPM,

"Master Yoda said I should be mindful of the future"

As you can see there is a direct reference to Yoda having instructed Obi Wan, so that means that Yoda has trained him and that is why he tells Luke to go to the Jedi Master that instructed him.

 

I really think the Yoda thing can be explained by Ben just wanting to instill confidence in Luke.

Luke always looked up to Ben, and to hear that he's going to be taught by the same guy who taught Ben would really get him motivated.

 

It's amazing to see how the English language is contorted for the sake of making the Star Wars prequels somewhat cohesive.

Likewise, it's amazing too see how the english language is blown out of proportion for the sake of making George Lucas seem like an uncaring and untalented director.

Kinda loses all meaning when he can walk up to any Jedi and say "Yes, my old Padawan,"

Not really, Yoda is the most respected Jedi Master to have possible ever lived. It's an honour and a testament to his greatness that he can walk up to any Jedi (in the prequels time) and call them "padawan".

it makes a joke out of the close relationship TPM was trying to show between Padawan and Master.

How so?

Absolutely nothing changes between the Padawans and their respective, not general like Yoda or perhaps other councilmembers, masters relationship.

So is he THE Master who instructed all the Jedi, or would he be A master they've all encountered along the way in their path to knighthood? Normally "the" implies uniqueness, but apparently in the Star Wars universe, it becomes as general and arbitrary as "a."

How many times has this been answered?

NOBODY'S saying Yoda is the ONLY Master to have ever lived or teached a Jedi (or in this case, Obi Wan). What we're saying is that we understand why Obi Wan would tell Luke "the" instead of "a".

By saying something Dooku already knows? Yeah, hard hitting point.

Did Dooku think he surpassed Yoda, yes or no?

The answer to that would/should tell you why Yoda made the obvious comment.

What point did he have in hiding the fact Yoda didn't fully instruct him? How would it have protected Luke?

I never said he mistold it for the same reason as the Vader one, i simply said he mistold it for a reason. I already answered what i felt that reason was.

Why does he need to impress Luke?

Because Luke has other business than to follow some Jedi Master. He has a rebel alliance to help & protect. Kenobi's insertion of "the" simply boosts whatever impression Luke would've gotten from his words.

It's obvious Lucas doesn't give a flip about continuity.

I suppose he went back and made these movies because he was bored?

It basically makes the Obi-wan character look stupid.

Stupid?

Everything he has said so far, regarding Luke, worked. He made Luke hate Vader, yet love Anakin. Made Luke fear the Emperor, yet have the courage to face him. He made Luke get off his butt and desert the Rebels to go see Yoda, and it worked.

And he never blatantly lies, he excaggerates.

- O_F

 

just to clear one thing up:

i have only read a couple of EU books, but if they are to be believed, dooku did indeed have another master after yoda.

i quote direct from the official star wars site databank:

"When Dooku was 13 years old, he was chosen to be the Padawan apprentice to Jedi Master Thame Cerulian. "

 

Lucas knew that Sith were around in 1977 and that they were the enemies of the Jedi in the time that Kenobi is speaking to Luke of in ANH. He had that much fleshed out and thats all you really need plus the absolute fact, at least according to DVD documentary, that Lucas was always intending it to be about a father and son in some capacity. In 1980 Lucas claims that with ESB if he were to make a seperate three movies, it would be prequels and they would be about the young Darth Vader and Obi-Wan Kenobi. What else do people want?!?! You have to allow him his creativity. What engineer of some mammoth undertaking knows every step of the journey?

 

Or how about "Dooku?" I believe that's his name...

Yoda doesn't want to repeat. Already called him Dooku.

I liked it when Yoda called him "old Padawan". In other words, considers him just a Padawan gone bad. "Much to learn..."

Luke always looked up to Ben, and to hear that he's going to be taught by the same guy who taught Ben would really get him motivated.

That's a nice interpretation.

 

GL definitely has had the overall story from day one. The original "hero" in ANH was going to be named Anakin, so he obviously had names and ideas and new where he wanted to go with the story, even if he never made the prequels. But, in what, '97 or '98, he saw that he could make a buttload of cash to add to his buttload of cash by making the prequels. So, he's already got the backstory, but now he needs details, supporting characters, and so on, stuff he didn't really think about in the '70's. So here comes Jar-Jar, Qui-Gon, Darth Maul, that he really tried to make them fit as best he could to his backstory. But, I think he may have jumped the gun. He should have watched the OT over and over and over and over before and during the writing of the screenplay. So out comes TPM. Then, the AOTC, he has to build off of TPM but begin to tie the PT to the OT. He realized, probably through forums like these, that Jar-Jar sucks, and other pros and cons sent out by us Star Wars geeks (which I am proud to call myself), so he gives Jar-Jar less screen time in AOTC, and for the most part tries to correct what he may have messed up in TPM. I loved AOTC, (except whiny Anakin, I loved pissed off Anakin), but for the most part, a lot of stuff began to connect to the OT, like the Death Star plans, and so on. I think GL slowed down on AOTC and really worked out most of the kinks. So, in summary, TPM was rushed, AOTC was a whole lot better and connected to the OT, and ROTS will be the best one of the entire saga because this is the part GL has been working on for the past 6-8 years or so.

 

He should have watched the OT over and over and over and over before and during the writing of the screenplay.

This is silly. Are you actually suggesting you know more about SW than GL? I guess you also know more about the Bible than God, right? (not that I'm drawing any paralles between God and GL. )

He realized, probably through forums like these, that Jar-Jar sucks, and other pros and cons sent out by us Star Wars geeks

No! GL does not read TFN forums, so if your making posts and thinking GL is reading them then...like I said: NO! If he did, the PT would be way worse.

 

He should have watched the OT over and over and over and over before and during the writing of the screenplay.

On the contrary, I believe he's seen MORE than what most people have seen (and understood) about the OT and formulated the prequels accordingly.

Don't forget there was a Bink Valorum , a politician as far as I am aware (in one of GL's earlier SW drafts and lo and behold Jar Jar is a politician in AOTC, having a part to play) in unwarilingly dismantling of the Republic.

 

Likewise, it's amazing too see how the english language is blown out of proportion for the sake of making George Lucas seem like an uncaring and untalented director.

Exactly, let's continue to bend over backwards so everything he does with the Prequels can have the illusion of making sense. Sounds like fun.

Not really, Yoda is the most respected Jedi Master to have possible ever lived. It's an honour and a testament to his greatness that he can walk up to any Jedi (in the prequels time) and call them "padawan".

Mass production loses the quality of being unique. Somehow, when you've had the same training as everyone else, that takes away from the greatness of the teaching. How is it great? In comparison to what? If Yoda himself is the standard, the term "greatness" loses all meaning. If there were a standard and Yoda's training surpassed it, THEN there'd be relevence. Unfortunately that isn't the case.

it makes a joke out of the close relationship TPM was trying to show between Padawan and Master.

How so?

Absolutely nothing changes between the Padawans and their respective, not general like Yoda or perhaps other councilmembers, masters relationship.

The Master-Apprentice dichotomy is cheapened greatly when said apprentice is reduced to being simply a "hand-me-down."

So is he THE Master who instructed all the Jedi, or would he be A master they've all encountered along the way in their path to knighthood? Normally "the" implies uniqueness, but apparently in the Star Wars universe, it becomes as general and arbitrary as "a."

How many times has this been answered?

With a feasible answer, none.

NOBODY'S saying Yoda is the ONLY Master to have ever lived or teached a Jedi (or in this case, Obi Wan). What we're saying is that we understand why Obi Wan would tell Luke "the" instead of "a".

Well, technically, you're saying Yoda is the main Jedi Master to teach Jedi since everyone except Anakin has been under his tutelage. All you've done is help make my point that there is no individuality or uniqueness in the Jedi, thus making Obi-wan's declaration in ESB a sign of idiocy. There was no sense of uniqueness to the Jedi, and for Obi-wan to claim it is pointless.

By saying something Dooku already knows? Yeah, hard hitting point.

Did Dooku think he surpassed Yoda, yes or no?

The answer to that would/should tell you why Yoda made the obvious comment.

Errr...okay...reminding him that he started somewhere. Unless Dooku forgot he was a Jedi, I doubt he forgot he was a Padawan, so Yoda's assertion is redundant. Especially considering all the Jedi are a dime-a-dozen, that's not really a hard hitting point, like I said.

I never said he mistold it for the same reason as the Vader one, i simply said he mistold it for a reason. I already answered what i felt that reason was.

Unfortunately, it was an absurd reason. Impressing Luke?

Why does he need to impress Luke?

Because Luke has other business than to follow some Jedi Master. He has a rebel alliance to help & protect. Kenobi's insertion of "the" simply boosts whatever impression Luke would've gotten from his words.

You have to devalue Luke's commitment to the way of the Jedi to give him motivation to pursue further training? I doubt he forgot what he was told about his father and wanting revenge. That alone is motivation for Luke to seek out Yoda. Obi-wan pointing out Yoda trained him for the sake of "impressing him" or "motivating him" is simply ridiculous and arbitrary.

I suppose he went back and made these movies because he was bored?

I said he didn't give a flip about continuity, not about the franchise.

It basically makes the Obi-wan character look stupid.

Stup

 

At the end of the Day the films fit together. Unfortunately some fans will just twist everything and say GL has n't explained this or that.

As for Dooku, Yoda probably did have some major part in his trainig or that is the impression I got from AOTC and IMO that is the way that GL does things, rather than waste time filling unimportant bits, he leaves certain issues with the viewer to decide.

We all know that at some point Yoda has a hand in training both Obi Wan and Dooku, hence yoda's statement in AOTC and Obi Wan to Luke in ESB

"That should be enough for you, now get onboard"

 

"Unfortunately some fans will just twist everything and say GL has n't explained this or that."

I just completely disagree with this statement. We the fans are the ones who know what the explanations are. No one here is twisting anything that's been shown on the screen. I know that Yoda did, in fact, train Obi-Wan. The problem is that it hasn't been made clear in the films. It's been made more complicated than necessary. So viewers who see the series and don't go to a forum or ask a fan or read EU will see Qui-Gon as Obi-Wan's master in TPM, hear Obi-Wan say Yoda instructed him in ESB, and come to the conclusion that this is a glaring continuity error. I've had to explain it myself to plenty of people who I know have seen all the movies several times. It comes up on these forums even years after the release of TPM, when it was first brought up as an issue and subsequently explained. And now the creator of this thread has brought it up again.

And, "Master Yoda told me I should be mindful of the future," is not good enough. It goes right by anyone who isn't a hardcore fan and besides, Master Yoda told Anakin that fear is the path to the Dark Side. Master Yoda tells a lot of people a lot of things. Just a minor tweak like, "Master Yoda always taught me to be mindful of the future," would have made a substantial difference.

 

1) Why wasn't Yoda in A New Hope?
2) Why is Sith never mentioned in the Original Trilogy?
3) Obi-Wan says Yoda trained him.

1. The movie was focused on Luke. "Humble beginnings", so to say.

2. I think, Lord Vader is mentioned as a "Dark Lord of the Sith". Or was it in the novel ?

3. That's irritating, I agree. Today, I'd say he wanted to install a feeling of trust into Luke.
My idea is that Luke would trust Yoda more if he knew that his great mentor was also trained by him. Or to put it the other way round : Luke wouldn't trust Yoda as much without knowiung anything about him except that he was an obscure "Jedi Master" (remember : The Jedi had died out at that point. Even Tarkin called Vader "a last remaining fragment" of that [quote not exactly from the movie].

With admitting that Ben had been trained by Yoda, and knowing how much Luke trusts Ben, even in so far that Luke followed him in "trusting the Force" above the Death Star I, Ben made sure Luke would trust Yoda rather more than without this information. It's like a secret two people sore, sort of (and therefore rather a psychological thing, I think).

Alrik.

In short . I agree with Tom Piltoff.

 

How much screen time do you think GL has, he can't go around wasting screen time for that, we only need to know that Yoda had a hand in Obi Wan's training this is given in the TPM (See my earlier post).

Why do we need to know the ins and out of this training, what pupose does it serve and how would it move the story along?

The point is we do not need to see that Obi Wan has had training from Yoda, Obi Wan makes references that Yoda has taught him, so in ESB Luke is told to go see Yoda the Jedi who taught me. That makes sense to me.

 

1) Why wasn't Yoda in A New Hope?
2) Why is Sith never mentioned in the Original Trilogy?
3) Obi-Wan says Yoda trained him.

1. real reason: GL had not yet invented yoda as he admits that he came up with yoda when he realised he needed some1 to carry on luke's training after the death of obi1

in movie reason: why isnt palpatine in ep4? for the same reason as yoda, they arent needed for the story. what was meant to happen-obi1 tells luke to come on his mission to alderaan but first they tell han to drop tham off on dagaobah so ben & yoda can train him? the most urgent part of the mission was getting to alderaan to help the rebellion when leia sent that message.

2.sith is mentioned in the script. vader is refferred to as the dark lord of the sith. its not mentioned onscreen but neither are a lot of things. if everything was explained onscreen there be none of us here in these forums now.

3.yoda did train him. he trained thousands of jedi before they were paired with another master. read my above quote from the official site about dooku. the dooku quote & the scene with obi1, yoda & the clan of younglings help to show yoda's relationship with all the jedi (except anakin). also it explains the line in ROTJ about obi1 blaming himself for anakin turning because he couldnt teach him aswell as yoda (ie he was the only jedi that yoda didnt teach first).

 

We've done good up to this point, just reminding everyone to keep the discussion on the topic and not other users.

 

A similar thread of mine in which Lucas' many retcons and reinventions are discussed:

http://boards.theforce.net/The_Star_Wars_Saga/b10456/19127786/?17

 

"How much screen time do you think GL has, he can't go around wasting screen time for that"

I repeat, a minor line change or two and maybe one little added line of Yoda making a passing reference to having specifically trained Obi-Wan would do the trick. The lines like, "Master Yoda told me..." are there, but they've just been written too vaguely for all but the most observant fans to pick up on and see as an explanation for Obi-Wan's later ESB line.

"Why do we need to know the ins and out of this training, what pupose does it serve and how would it move the story along?"

We don't need to know 'the ins and outs of this training.' It's only to fix what is commonly percieved as a continuity error.

"Obi Wan makes references that Yoda has taught him, so in ESB Luke is told to go see Yoda the Jedi who taught me. That makes sense to me."

Again, it makes sense to me too. You're looking at this whole issue from the point of view of a fan, who knows this story well. But try to see it from the perspective of someone who isn't a hardcore SW fan. It's confusing because of Qui-Gon. If it was as clearly written as you say it is, we wouldn't be having this discussion.

 

I've always seen this argument made into a slippery slope. "Why go out of the way to show every bit of detail," and so on; where anything that Lucas doesn't do is this great detour in the story, when in actuality, Lucas could have simply not shown Obi-wan with another master and left the implication of Yoda being his instructor. That's how it was in one of the original drafts of TPM, Obi-wan as the master, leaving his past more ambiguous, so that way his line in ESB has no conflict with anything. As it is now, it's a red flag. Albeit not a big one, it can be rationalized and bent to "make sense," but it's still a red flag nonetheless.

That or maybe, as you recommended, a minor tweaking in the line. That line as it stands is pretty much the one straw people have to grasp at in rationalizing the maintenance of continuity. An offhand comment is literally a life preserver that keeps everything from falling apart, "Yoda made an offhand remark to Obi-wan, like he does to everyone else, that PROVES he is THE Master who instructed Obi-wan!"

 

Can one be instructed, without being trained?

I was also considering that maybe (we don't know yet), that Qui Gon may have become One with the Force. Thus since he cannot communicate anymore, Obi Wan then tells Luke about Yoda someone who had instructed him, who Luke could actually be trained under. In this way, Luke doesn't need to know anything else, especially at that juncture.

 

Moving away from the Yoda thing for a second, I'd like to point out another example of Lucas making it up as he goes. This one isn't a contradiction or anything, just something I thought was interesting and lucky in a way. On the OT DVD documentary it's revealed that Darth Vader's breathing mask was kind of a happy accident. Lucas didn't tell Ralph McQuarrie to give him one. McQuarrie just figured that having to go from his ship to the Rebel ship he would have to go out into space and needed something to breath with. Lucas liked it and decided to keep it, and it has since been explained as being a result of the injuries Anakin sustained in his transformation into Vader.

 

Can one be instructed, without being trained?

For the Jedi, aren't they one and the same since through training the pupil is instructed in the ways of the Force? I believe the Younglings were in a training session when Obi-wan walked in on them, and I do believe Master Yoda instructed them too.

 

and I do believe Master Yoda instructed them too.

Possibly, "instruction" is a short term and "training" per say is long term.

 

Possibly, but nah.

 

Qui Gon told Anakin "feel, don't think" and that's more of instruction than a training. Unless he continued to spend time with him, which ofcourse he couldn't. Qui Gon was not allowed to "train", but could give him some pointers here and there.