SW fans are limiting their imagination.

Neo: When someone says only negative things about something, that's called bashing. I'm not saying that you always say only negative things about TPM, but right now, you did.
So, your post was a bashing post, but I do not label you a basher.

BTW: You won't get any "real" originals on DVD unless you copy them yourself. But maybe that's your plan(just asking)?



Star Wars is one
/LM

 

Theres actually three things I can do to obtain my own original versions of the film. Im not anti-change, im just anti the changes that alter the pace and the story. There should been many more "cosmetic changes". How can you do things as grand as insert Hayden or change classic diolog but not make Lukes white saber blue? I thought that was the type of thing Lucas claimed the alterations were for.


I probably bashed TPM more now than in 1999. I remember being so excited at its opening that I had an anxiety attack with the crawl came on. I took a greyhound bus from Sacremento to Oakland to see it on opening day. I was wearing a Darth Maul T-shirt and a fishermans hat with the star wars logo on it. While in line I over-heard a family discussing the SE and they were talking about what the dinosaur-like creature was. Like a nerd uncontrolled I chimed in instinctively "Its called a Ronto". How grand geekish of me. The first thing I noticed was how vibrant the colors were in the movie. The Planet and the ambassodor ship was rich in color. When the women pilot began to talk to the Neomodian I was slightly thrown off by the stiff diolog and delivery. I tried to go ahead and sink into that "serial style" mode of thinking to take in the dilevery better. The Nemodians accents kicked me in the face too- but I couldnt tell if it was awkward because it was a new accent I hadnt heard in STAR WARS or the delivery itself. I believe an Asian man once said "Theres, too many of them" in the OT but this was different and much more. I liked the idea though because iv always liked how you have the english/british imperials then you can hear a country guy in his x-wing. I accepted it quick and took it kinda comical which I think was intended.

Then we have the Jedi. Neeson and McGregor, exellent. They do the best they can with the diolog given to them. And the diolog in the begining is good. I liked Jinns attitute immediately when he talks about the TF being coward-types. All runs smooth until, a comical band of "battledroids" appear and they are talking to each other in a strange manner. "Cover me corprol" "rodger, rodger". It feels like STAR WARS is making fun of itself at this point. When they say "UH OH" and the cheezy saber lights appear, Im starting to get worried.

I could go on, but to make a long story short, I was disappointed. I mean crushed. I had no idea what I had just witnessed. Had it not been for the final duel I may have killed myself. I wanted to like it, I wanted other people to like it. I wanted everyone to like it because it was STAR WARS. I pretended it was greater than I really thought and continued for repeat viewings. The fifth time I saw it was because I got up and walked out on WildWildWest. I went in and watched TPM. Two Women in front of me were laughing through the whole movie. Every time Panaka said something they giggled. Grown-ass women. Not girls. Thats when it hit me. As Jinn, Obi, and a dangling Jarjar jumped into action to cutdown more droids, it hit me. This film is lower in quality than if it was just bad. It was really bad. I think the reason why im more harsh on it now is because of Lucas. After hearing some of the things Lucas says and noting his arrogance and attitude about fan related stuff- it made me stop defending every little STAR WARS thing. There was a time when I thought the man could do no wrong. But over the years iv have gotten to know an older and seemingly petty man who is childish and spiteful. Im still greatful for him but I cant ignore the things he says and does. It makes it very easy for me to point out the flaws of his new films with very little restraint. If Lucas had never sat in a single interview or had any of his statements printed since 1999, I may be more forgiving of the prequels blank spots. I watch cheezy movies that I like all the time. I should be able to, above all other films, forgive shortcommings in new STAR WARS films.

Just from my own point of view. I may even watch TPM after so many days of bringing it up. I even believe there are simple ways that it c

 

Cool.
I agree that lightsabers and other things of that ilk should've been taken care of.
Perhaps for the next DVD release....



Star Wars is one
/LM

 

I completely agree with Baggins when he says he tried very hard to like TPM. Hell, I was 15 when it came out, right in the middle of the stage where I should have been engrossed by it. I watched it 8 times in theaters when it took me an hour and a half to earn the money for admission!
And still I hated every scene except for the duel and when the droids do their little 'Nazi propaganda film' march. I originally liked the OT because they are good movies, not because they are Star Wars. Now I will buy anything with Star Wars written on and I despise the PT. They are less Star Wars to me than the Zahn Trilogy. I challenge someone to name a great line from the PT (and give real literary reasons). "This party's over." Is the best I can think of and that's no better than Pearl Harbor dialogue. I could go off and give dozens from the OT. No one even speaks during TPM's climax!


As far as the whole Amidala-Falcon thing I understand why the Queen's ship is that way and I used a bad example. Here are more suitable ones:
1. Cantina vs. Night Club in AOTC
2. Bespin vs. Naboo
3. Chewie vs. Jar-Jar
4. Yoda with Frank Oz Puppet vs. Yoda Impersonator

 

Neo I applaud you. That is EXACTLY how I felt. It makes me angry when the people who really like the prequels tell us who dont that we are just being stubborn or closeminded or nonsense like that.

Some of us simply do not like them because we feel they are inferior films, not because we are choosing to not like them.

 

It makes me angry when the people who really like the prequels tell us who dont that we are just being stubborn or closeminded or nonsense like that.

Some of us simply do not like them because we feel they are inferior films, not because we are choosing to not like them.

Who, in this thread, ever said that?

This thread is about some fans suddenly labeling certain things "new" to Star Wars as "impossible" when the entirety of Star Wars can be considered "impossible".

I understand your sentiment, believe me. But i don't think that Lars Muul (since Neo was debating with him) ever indicated that or tried indicating that. He's just sharing why he feels that people might have problems accepting the new SW, much like Neo is sharing why he has trouble accepting the new SW.

No one even speaks during TPM's climax!

Euhm, noone speaks during ANY Star Wars climax. From TPM to AotC to ANH to ESB to RotJ. Don't really know what you're getting at here.

And that "challenge" is a joke, i could give you dozens of lines which i think are great from the PT and then take one line from the OT and make fun of it.

Here are more suitable ones:
1. Cantina vs. Night Club in AOTC

A sports club in the capital of the universe vs. a backalley cantina in a desert-planet?

Hardly even comparable.

2. Bespin vs. Naboo

A capitol taken over by Lando Calrissian vs. a planet governed by the likes of Queen Amidala ?

Hardly even comparable.

3. Chewie vs. Jar-Jar

A sidekick to a smuggler vs. a clumsy outcast?

Hardly even comparable.

4. Yoda with Frank Oz Puppet vs. Yoda Impersonator

Don't really know what you're getting at here

 

The last two I think you could compare if you wanted. Chewie and Jar Jar are the primary nonhuman characters for a few movies, so that makes sense. And comparing Yoda's different forms is totally reasonable. The two bars don't really have anything to do with each other. The depiction of Coruscant was exactly what I had always pictured it to be?hats off to Lucas for including it?, and the car chase with the bar scene give great insight to what life on Coruscant is like. As for those two planets, I don't know why those two perticular ones are chosen for comparison. If it means something to you, then fine.

 

Chewie and Jar Jar are the primary nonhuman characters for a few movies, so that makes sense.

But as characters they aren't alike at all, they dont serve the same purpose, they don't share any resemblance etc etc. So i don't really see a comparison there aside from the "only nonhuman" which is vague at best with droids and Yodas in the story.

And comparing Yoda's different forms is totally reasonable.

Really?

Comparing a Yoda who is the master of an Order and one of the most respected individuals in the galaxy to a cast out, forgotten, "sick-he-has-become" Yoda in some swamp isn't really that sensible.

Of course you're going to get different Yodas, plus i ment that i didn't understand the "Frank Oz vs Imposter" comment, Frank was in TPM aside from ONE scene, and the AotC Yoda was spot on with any Frank performance aside from, again, ONE scene.

 

"i could give you dozens of lines which i think are great from the PT and then take one line from the OT and make fun of it."

Part of the OTs popularity, recognition, and worldwide love, is due to its memorable diolog. The OT movies are the most quoted movies in film history. The films have been quoted endlessly to this day from the first time it was released in 1977. Movies and sitcoms use the lines because the lines are beloved classics. But dont get me wrong, the PT has not gone ignored and unquoted. I know of atleast two shows who have used the line "Yousa say peoples gonna die?". Whenever STAR WARS is quoted it is always quoted for comic effect- but in the case of this PT line, it is used mockingly. Not lovingly. Thats a sign of the PTs quality in diolog. IMO

I remember lines from movies iv only seen once. Iv seen the prequel films several times each and I am hard-pressed to swiftly quote something from it. I dont find it to have a memorable heart in the department of diolog. Out of the four or so hours of TPM and AOTC the only thing that comes to mind is "The Sun is doing Murder to me skin".

Does the PT need 20 years before its diolog is absorbed? Is their memorable diolog there that will be seen later down the line? Nope. By the time of ESB the first films diolog had been branded into our culture forever. And it would be so with the two films that followed. We are nearing the third movie in the prequel trilogy and there is no memorable diolog that I can see. A great deal of a films heart relies on what is said during the story. If the words can be forgotten it is only a matter of time before the pictures are too.

Off-topic for a sec, sorry.

 

That's all very true, i can't even start pretending to say that the PT is quoted as much as the OT...


....but that doesn't change that i think the PT has great dialogue, dialogue thats on the same level as the OT's. I don't need to be "agreed with" by many to convince "me" what i think is great dialogue.

And TPM quotations go further than just Jar Jar, i mean i know what you're getting at - but it's not all mockery. Likewise it's like the Ewoks being the main target for references to Return of the Jedi.

 

- What, you think you're some kind of Jedi, waving your hand around like that?

Classic



Star Wars is one
/LM

 

"Does the PT need 20 years before its diolog is absorbed? Is their memorable diolog there that will be seen later down the line?"

Well, I guess we'll have to wait and see for that bit.

But I've always liked lines about negotiations (either agressive or short).

 

That's a parallell between episodes that I never noticed! I wonder if ROTS will have a few lines about, say, deadly negotiations?



Star Wars is one
/LM

 

I also like "The ability to speak does not make one intelligent." That gets used almost hourly around here.

 

That's an incredibly clever line. It's applicable to anything!
"There's always a bigger fish" is nice too.

Man, we're off topic! But, as long as noone's discussing in here, we might as well do this



Star Wars is one
/LM

 

Its true that one can see greatness in the PTs diolog without having the rest of the world think so. I really didnt want to imply that the diolog is lacking for everybody.

I found it funny when JarJar said "The sun is doing murder to me skin" and I remember that the most. If I thought for a moment id also have to say I like "As you can see, my Jedi powers are far beyond yours. Now back down."

 

If I thought for a moment id also have to say I like "As you can see, my Jedi powers are far beyond yours. Now back down."

Well, Christopher Lee can make any line sound cool. But yes, that line is pretty awesome.

I think the most quoted line from the prequels is by far "Fear leads to anger, anger leads to hate..."

My favorite is probably "Dreams pass in time", thats my favorite line in perhaps the entire saga. The way Ewan delivers it, the way he and Hayden react to each other, the context of the line (how both Obi/Anakin just don't understand each other), everything surrounding it is just great. It's very simple yet deep.

The prequels don't have a moment that trumps Yodas speech to Luke however, "look at me, judge me by my size do you? And well you should not! For my ally...is the force, and a powerful ally it is!...".

But then again, very very very few movies have a moment that comes close to that one, so i don't hold it against the prequels. Neither does any other moment in any Star Wars episode.

I think, scriptwise, ANH is the weakest of the bunch. Although it does have its moments and is, of course, responsible for some of the most famous lines in cinematic history.

Euhm....so, limiting our imagination aye

 

The reason I used the Cantina to compare the 'feels' of the two trilogies, with the OT treating you like an adult, and making Luke feel like he (and the audience as well) was stepping into a larger, scarier world. However in AOTC the bar or whatever it is is not scary nor does it set a mood. It sheerly is a place where something happens. Setting has lost it's magic in Star Wars.

Naboo and Bespin I was really just referring to the differences between how Naboo looked like something out of a painting and therefore not very realistic when Bespin looked like it had a purpose in its world. Also compare the suspense during the escape from Cloud City to that of the Naboo blockade/Gungan battle.

No one speaks in any Star Wars climax? The Emperor/Vader/Luke duel in ROTJ? The "No Luke, I ..." speech? The differences between the dialogue essentially comes down to this. In the PT Dooku taunts Obi-Wan/Anakin/Yoda in a "I am better than you way" which is very simplistic evil. Vader's first line to Luke, "The Force is with you young Skywalker...but you are not a Jedi yet..." says nothing of Vader at all- it instills doubt into Luke (and therefore the viewer) about Luke's OWN abilities after leaving Yoda so early, which ultimately is more terrifying than some bad guy saying he's going to beat you up.

On a different note, upon reviewing the movies, I really think the reason the PT's have stumbled so badly is that they have lost a character you can relate to. When you meet Luke he's a nobody- not until the end of ESB does he discover he's anyone important, while Anakin from the very beginning is told he is 'The Chosen One'. Hmmm I guess if I was Jesus I could relate to that but I doubt anyone else can.

 

Pretty good stuff, man. Pretty good stuff.

 

Artoo being able to fly....dumb? This astromech droid outfitted with a device that allows for this is in keeping with the wonderful surprise that is in the imagination of GL.
As for GG. I am intrigued by the form that GL gave to this antagonist!!

 

To BDB: I think, for me, the disappoint in the sequels/prequels are exactly the origin stories have been written. I mean, I do have issues with the way the new, advanced special effects techniques on some certain aspects make THESE Star Wars films unrecognizable. (Hope that makes sense) I mentioned this before but I think General Greivous is an interesting creation and I can accept the reality of his/its role in the 3rd film. R2 being able to fly? It makes sense. It is a tool, device (of course he is much more than that!)The issue I have (I hope this goes with the Subject) is that concerning the whole matter surrounding young Anakin and his trials, tribulations, and seriously emotional issues, have not even begun to be convincing. THE prequels should have shown what the boy's relationship to others and his mentors is like. There absolutely NOTHING. TPM goes from child Anakin to AOTC young adult anakin. Nothing in the formative years. THAT is a mistake. You can't emphathize with a character when there's no deeper background, other than showing his love for his mother, to help one feel for the character.

 

The reason I used the Cantina to compare the 'feels' of the two trilogies, with the OT treating you like an adult, and making Luke feel like he (and the audience as well) was stepping into a larger, scarier world. However in AOTC the bar or whatever it is is not scary nor does it set a mood.

Sounds like a large essay someone wrote a while ago, but anyway - the AotC bar isn't supposed to be scary. It's a sportsbar compared to a lowly cantina where "you'll find the most wretched hive of scum and villainy".

There really is no comparison to be made, likewise - Obi and Luke went in a bar to find a smuggler. Obi and Anakin went in to capture an assassin. Again, i really don't see why one would even compare the two, the bar isn't about the setting - it's about the mission. Anakin is not Luke who is ignorant to all but the desert, so i don't see why Lucas would even begin to try and emulate the same feeling you describe (and which i agree with) for this scene.

I was really just referring to the differences between how Naboo looked like something out of a painting and therefore not very realistic when Bespin looked like it had a purpose in its world.

But thats done on purpose, Naboo is supposed to be this magically beautiful place that we don't want to be destroyed. It's a romantic and almost fairytale like place, if you want a real comparison to Bespin - take Kamino.

The Emperor/Vader/Luke duel in ROTJ? The "No Luke, I ..." speech? The differences between the dialogue essentially comes down to this. In the PT Dooku taunts Obi-Wan/Anakin/Yoda in a "I am better than you way" which is very simplistic evil. Vader's first line to Luke, "The Force is with you young Skywalker...but you are not a Jedi yet..." says nothing of Vader at all- it instills doubt into Luke (and therefore the viewer) about Luke's OWN abilities after leaving Yoda so early, which ultimately is more terrifying than some bad guy saying he's going to beat you up.

Okay i misunderstood you.

But here's some "pretty important" climactic dialogue for you.

"It's too late, Obi Wan - promise me..."
etc etc
"fronted you the level of Jedi Knight the council does, but agree with you training this boy, I, do not!"
"I gave Qui Gon my word, i will train Anakin! Without the councils approval if i must!"
"Qui Gons defiance i sense in you, need that - you do not"
etc etc

With Clones, i can see your point. But the visuals more than make up for whatever dialogue one feels is lacking, plus the relevation that Dooku planned this entire war with Sidious/Palpatine himself is pretty big.

When you meet Luke he's a nobody- not until the end of ESB does he discover he's anyone important, while Anakin from the very beginning is told he is 'The Chosen One'.

Right, aside from singlehandidly blowing up the Death Star by using the force?

Both him and Anakin learn in the first Episodes that they're special, and both him and Anakin learn that they have a power that they did not know they had in the second one - Luke meets the truth (and Yoda), Anakin meets the darkside (and Palpatine...although he already knows him).

I agree that TPM goes a little overboard with the whole prophecy/chosenone arc - but it's not as different as you make it out to be from Luke in ANH.

And i don't think the prequels stumbled in any way, shape or form at all.

 

****************

Pfft!

I guess so many people try to post their opinions as dogma... when they're just (mostly half-baked) opinions based on inner emotions/motives that only ring true to the ones who spew them out.

I only know this... if A new Hope had come out in this day and age... it would've bombed at the box office. And there would've been no sequels except on T.V. (maybe).

The SW films are KIDS movies (fairy tales)... just like Willy Wonka and Spy Kids, The Incredibles, etc.

Some teenages expect the prequesl to be "cool" like the Matrix and stuff.. Heh! Their just kids movies!

Not to say adults can't enjoy them, though... they can... but it's so silly to read them MOAN and Biatch about how they're not cool enough for them...

Sheesh!


****************8

 

Well Anakenobi I dont take my opinion as dogma but I feel it's well supported. I can't imagine how you would reason that ANH would bomb nowadays. On the special features of the DVD's Lucas talks alot about the book "Hero of A Thousand Faces" and it's influence on Star Wars. Now GL took all the most universal and powerful themes from that (according to himself) and put them in Star Wars. These stories have been around in every culture for thousands of years. I don't think humans have changed enough in 25 years to render them obsolete.

And by the way I really don't think Star Wars is a kids movie, watch the Burning Homestead.

In response to Obi-Frans, yes I borrowed the Cantina argument from an essay you can read on this site.
Article

As far as the dialogue in the PT, really all those lines occur in the resolution to TPM not the climax. If they resonate with you then I'm glad but here is why they don't for me-

"It's too late, Obi Wan - promise me..."

This is a fairly generic deathbed scene due to the small amount of interaction Qui-Gonn and Obi-Wan have during that movie. The emotion from the Lars, Yoda and Anakin/Vader's deaths seems gone. Also it changed the death of the Jedi which gave them a mystic that's lacking with the emergence of Midichlorians and the fact they no longer disappear.

"fronted you the level of Jedi Knight the council does, but agree with you training this boy, I, do not!" (and the following lines)

One of many examples where the only way the PT can come up with cool scenes is drawing upon people's love of the old movies. They never do anything that stands up on it's own. Everything is just "Well this is what the Jedi's looked like and that's cool" or "here's what Yoda and Ben were like". Obviously the PT's were going to have to use a lot of dramatic irony but making the audience constantly think "Oh, the character is doing this but we know better!" is not good story telling.

 

<<Well Anakenobi I dont take my opinion as dogma but I feel it's well supported>>

I agree. Your opinions can be well based on good logic. However, their just opinions. And I agree that they should be respected as such.

<<I can't imagine how you would reason that ANH would bomb nowadays. On the special features of the DVD's Lucas talks alot about the book "Hero of A Thousand Faces" and it's influence on Star Wars. Now GL took all the most universal and powerful themes from that (according to himself) and put them in Star Wars. These stories have been around in every culture for thousands of years. I don't think humans have changed enough in 25 years to render them obsolete>>

I meant to say that if the exact film (we all know and LOVE) made it's debut today, with all it's cheesy humor and dialogue, it would be just too campy and...cheesy to "modern" post-matrix audiences. And it would bomb.

But I agree, that the issues of the myth elements would still ring true to any human of any age... but back in 1977 if you read the reviews by moviegoers, they just spoke about how the film rocked mainly because of the fun/action/out-of-this-world elements... no mention of the whole myth thingy.


<<And by the way I really don't think Star Wars is a kids movie, watch the Burning Homestead>>

I did... And I also read the original children stories from Europe (Snow White, Red Riding Hood, etc.)... they're scarier than most of today's horror novels.

And I also saw the Incredibles... filled with adult themes.

And yet Lucas himself defines the saga as a FAIRY TALE....and kid films...watch the DVD collections to get all that if you haven't.