Full Series SW Movie Saga Quotes in Rebels

Yeah but I would personally give that instance a pass because he THE CHARACTER is deliberately quoting another character (and appropriately too as it is a training mantra) and acknowledging it rather than just so happening that one character in this show has a line that happens to sound like something a totally unrelated character said in a totally unrelated circumstance - which would get annoying after a while for sure. Plus his own acknowledgement he doesn't actually know what it means is genuinely pretty funny.

Similarly I am not overly concerned with Kanan and Ahsoka both mentioning 'sensing a presence' given that this is kind of what Jedi/force users do. The way it appeared in the trailer was definitely meant to evoke the more famous use of the line but that needn't necessarily be so in the actual episode. As with a lot of things it comes down to the execution and the season hasn't officially aired yet at all - it's far too early to judge. Mention possible concerns, yes. But complain about how poorly/frequently it's been done? No - not until it HAS been done. And I really don't recall it coming up intolerably often in the first season, which is frequently when writers' are getting to grips with new ideas anyway and often improves rather than worsens.

 

TCW: Obi-Wan: "That's no mound, that's a spaceship."

Hilarious.

 

Right, it's not the exact same thing that Vader said, but is close enough to that line. Just changing it to "anything" or "something" etc. would have steered clear of that confusion.

Right, I'm willing to accept this type of quote re-use, when (although a bit of a stretch), Kanan may have heard these exact words from Yoda at some point. That's OK, and doesn't confuse or disrupt canon too much.

 

As a general rule of thumb I find it's pretty tolerable if it's one character deliberately quoting another character in context - Kanan quoting Yoda specifically does make sense especially as he does open with something along the lines of ''As Master Yoda used to say...'', and the quote was something he would have learned in training and was now using himself to help Ezra train. It's the character quoting his own teacher not the writers showing that hey you guys, we've totally seen the films too, see?

Personally only the 'I haven't sensed a presence...' line was really jarring because of how it was framed and presented seemed deliberately meant to make us think 'OH WOW OT REFERENCE SO CLEVER' in the trailer. I mean, two Jedi sensing great evil in general, that does make sense. But the way it was shot/edited and the delivery of the line were a little too on the nose. Things like 'There, the Rebels are on...' or 'TIE fighters coming in at Mark whatever' really aren't iconic lines at all in the same way. That's pretty generic 'detective' or 'fighter pilot' dialogue... that just so happens to have been used before in SW (not renowned as a rule for it's naturalistic and realistic dialogue in the first place.)

Once Vader starts saying 'I have you now!' as he swoops down on the Ghost, then I am going to start complaining. But most of the time I really honestly don't remember there being any really clunky references that didn't make sense in context.

 

The EU in particular is prone to reusing lines where the author thinks such a nod would make sense. "I have you now" is used in Dark Lord - it's even part of the quotes on the back cover of the novel.

 

It CAN be done pretty well... but rarely is. Zahn was/is one author who likes to sprinkle allusions and quotes like that from the films but (normally) when he does it, it fits reasonably well. But the point with that particular example would be that it's Darth Vader using a very famous Darth Vader line in very similar circumstances to the original use for no other reason than because look everyone it's Darth Vader, we're so clever you guys.

When it's in the background (90% of the time it is) then I can let it slide easily enough. It's things like the 'I haven't sensed a presence...' where we're clearly MEANT to go 'oh yeah, look it's just like the films, how cool' that I find grating... but haven't yet seen in Rebels, I must add in the sake of balance.

 

LOL -- -nice new picture, jakobitis

I gave some thought to the Yoda quotes in Rebels by Kanan, and managed to put my finger on what was bothering me about them:

1) "The fear, the anger, the hate............" Sure, you could say that Yoda used these words in training, BUT.............one thing wrong with this quote is that Yoda said "Fear leads to anger, anger leads to hate, hate.................leads to suffering". He didn't refer to someone (a "presence") embodying them all at once.

They were phases to pass through, each one leading to the next. Vader, passing through each, is now in his "hate" phase, and suffering is the result for much of the galaxy. Kanan shouldn't be feeling fear or even really anger in Vader at this point. Vader is almost certainly past the "fear" phase of his development, and likely out of his "anger" phase too ---- those are weaknesses that would stand in the way of his cold, calculated, merciless and ruthless nature.

Using a quote like this in what, IMO, is the wrong way is one example of why it is so dangerous to re-use lines from old movies and other characters, unless it is explicitly clear that the new character speaking the line has good reason to speak it, has interpreted the line clearly, and has reason to know that line (e.g. from a training session with Yoda).

2) "Do or do not ---- there is no try". Now this one really bothers me. No, I do not think that this is one of Yoda's big teaching lessons, one that he would teach to every Jedi under his tutelage.

I think this line works best as being a one-off, spontaneous teaching moment for Yoda with Luke and Luke alone. Yoda didn't need to have that catch phrase in his back pocket to pull out as soon as Luke mentioned the word "try". It really seemed to be (and should have been left as, IMO) a singular, responsive reaction to Luke and his POV.

"Well, I'll try........"

"NO!!!!"

"Try not....................DO!.............or do not.............there is no try..............."

Classic line. Only needs to be used one, by Yoda, and then maybe, *maybe* by Luke teaching someone else at a later date. Then and only then would it really seem clever, if it is carefully and selectively done.

By having Kanan use it and claim that it was one of Yoda's many catch phrases, IMO this really, REALLY cheapens the spontaneous moment that should have been reserved for Yoda and Luke in ESB.

Hope this makes sense...........if you can't tell, I am all about preserving the uniqueness and brilliance of lines from the OT (and a few from t he PT), and protecting them from overuse, cheapening etc. in the "new canon". EU (now Legends) material is understandable, though it is still annoying when they do it. But to have it appear in canon...........that carries far more weight to it, so should be treated with great care.

 

Timothy Zahn likes using such quotes, especially in unexpected places. In "Survivor's Quest," Dean Jinzler says, "I'm an engineer, like my father before me." (something to that effect)

 

I can definitely see where you are coming from Saxman, but I am not totally sure that I agree. With respect to the first line, well 'Anger' is not just the overwhelming Incredible Hulk type of tantrum rage - which Vader really probably is past by now. But there is a kind of self loathing that seems very Vader to me, anger directed at himself that he sublimates by taking it out on everyone else (hence his propensity for 'terminal dismissal' of crew who fail him) and so on. Similarly there is the fear, not in the sense he is scared of anything or anyone else but of just what he has become, and what he might yet become. It's probably subconscious to a degree... but it's still fear. He's trapped in the armour forever and is afraid of what that will be like... which feeds the anger. I can see Vader's hatred being fuelled by both and that's what Kanan senses. Alternatively of course it's possible that Kanan is just straight up wrong, in universe. He remembers something he once heard but either has forgotten a crucial detail or is just plain mistaken as to what he was meant to take away from it. Just from the trailer, we know Vader hands Kanan his backside without even trying. Kanan saying something is not the same as the writers' believing it to be so.

The second is another debatable one but Yoda was a teacher and if he was anything like every teacher I've ever had then he's going to have the odd catchphrase or favourite expression. 'Do or do not... there is no try' is a much more logical teachers' mantra than the 'have you forgotten your underwear?!' my old maths teacher used to open up every 'forgotten homework excuse' rant with. And Kanan only used it once, and admitted he doesn't actually know what was meant. He's acknowledging he's not as good or wise as Yoda, and it really doesn't lessen the impact because we've seen both teacher and pupil alike totally fail to grasp the meaning. Yoda uses it and Luke gets the point, because Yoda (unlike Kanan) does in fact know what he's on about. I don't want everyone to start using it willy-nilly and I doubt Kanan's ever going to say it again (outside of perhaps one moment when he/Ezra realise that's what the saying means, cue stirring music) so I don't think it's a really big deal.

I don't think this does cheapen the expressions as much as you do, because done properly, it's not the Rebels writers simply copying/imitating the original scripts... it's the Rebels characters aspiring to the original characters, in-universe. I've said in other posts, moments like Vader (hypothetically) claiming that he 'has you now!' as he attacks in his personal TIE would be a whole 'nother story and one I would be right beside you in decrying. But I think that saga quotes CAN be used right as well as wrong and for the most part they've got far more right than not.

PCCViking... yes, Zahn's one I was thinking of too. He does it pretty well for the most part though!

 

I can just imagine Vader sensing Ahsoka, and explaining it to Tarkin:

"A tremor in the Force. The last time I felt it, was in the presence of my old student"
"Surely she must be dead by now"

 

Yes, there is the chance that Vader is still grappling with his fear and anger. I like to think of it that very soon after turning into suited Vader and learning that he was possibly responsible for his wife's death, that he passes full on into the "hate" phase and sheds his youthful, weakening fear and anger emotions. Like something snaps within him and he just becomes this 100%, full-on cold, merciless tool of Palpatine's, more machine than man, that only let's his hate guide his actions.

Only later, when he learns of his son, does he begin to aspire to toss aside the shackles that Palpatine has on him, to overthrow him and rule the galaxy with his son instead. However, he is still full-on in "hate" mode until his defining moment of redemption, when he sheds his mind of hate, returns to his senses and saves his son from death.

In the OT with Vader, I can't really think of a moment where he shows any sort of fear or anger emotions, in either spoken words, body language or deeds.....it's really all just cold, channeled hate towards anyone opposed to the Empire or who gets in his way of finding his son. He projects fear onto others but has no reason to fear himself.


Yeah, just my POV, but moments like the "do or do not" moment with Luke are special in the OT. They are treasured moments that don't need rehashing, copying or referencing (except for in the future of the canon timeline, where Luke can potentially pay subtle and touching tribute). By generalizing them to be used in past parts of the timeline, it just takes away the special aspect of the moment in the OT. That's what I imean by cheapening ---- the removal of the unuiqueness and specialness of something in the OT.

 

I think we just interpret his character differently really. For me personally, the hatred he feels is a direct result of his fear and anger. Not a primal, horror-movie fear but a sense of loss. He's a man trapped inside a machine. There is no way out. He won't die, and can't be killed. He's got nothing to look forward to. No escape from the constant pain of existing. That's pretty terrifying. And the anger is mostly at himself - this is all his fault and he knows it. Every choice he made, lead him here. But he takes that rage out on everyone else, so they all hurt and fear him as much as he does. All the hatred he feels is a result of anger and fear, not an alternative to. But that's my POV only.

The 'Do or do not' moment is a great moment because it is unique. And Kanan's acknowledged failure to teach the same lesson only emphasises that, to my mind. It's NOT just a phrase that Jedi spout on a whim, it's a lesson that Yoda has learned and that Kanan has not mastered - because he's not Yoda. He's not remotely that good. That's the whole point. The inference is that Yoda's way IS unique, and special, and not everyone can use it. It's special because of who said it, not what was said.

 

Yeah, for me, Vader shed his fear and anger soon after becoming masked Vader. The fear led to the anger, and the anger led to the hate, just like Yoda predicted. The suffering is the end result, and many in the galaxy will now suffer under his oppression. He may not even be driven by hatred anymore --- he may just be dead to the emotions of the world, almost unfeeling and psychologically damaged so greatly that he is really just a living monster, ready to do whatever Palpatine wishes, regardless of the means.

IMO, Yoda's moment is unique and special not just because of who said it (Yoda) but of who it was said to, why it was said, the circumstances around which it was said etc. Just seems more appropriate to leave a quote like that as a one-off demonstration of Yoda's wisdom in the moment to counter the specific wishy-washy attitude of Luke.

It's not like ever Jedi would need to be taught such a lesson, that it would need to be a general Jedi lesson that Yoda had previously taught, since most Jedi were familiar with the Force from very early ages and knew that almost anything was possible by harnessing it. Luke was an 18-20 year old who never even knew of the Force until he was an adult. There's a good chance that Yoda may have never even had to say something of that sort to anyone before.

 

Yeah, other Jedi absolutely WERE taught that lesson. That's exactly how they knew almost anything was possible by harnessing the Force. 'Do, or do not...' is basically the fundamental basic principle of the Jedi in the ways of the Force. You wish it to be so... the Force makes it so. No trying involved. They just got started on that principle from a much earlier age than Luke. And who taught the children too young to be apprentices? Yoda. If Kanan had never heard it before, that would just be very odd.

 

Agreed. The idea that quotes and teachings that were done by the masters of the PT such as Yoda is unique to Luke seems just plain wrong. By appearances from TCW, the masters from the Council had a decent amount of influence in the teachings of younglings. In TCW and AOTC Yoda was seen instructing younglings. There is no reason not to think that Yoda wouldn't have imparted the same teachings to the younglings or any other Jedi he instructed, or that the quotes/sayings wouldn't be reused to reinforce teachings.

Becoming a Jedi isn't exactly unique.....

 

Very confident language there. Yes, Yoda was seen teaching "younglings" in AOTC --- he proceeded to teach a completely new lesson with no re-used words from his past teachings.

It's a big stretch to assume that things such as "Do or do not, there is no try", "Wars not make one great" etc. were staples of Yoda's teachings, but of course I will admit that that is my opinion instead of saying you are just plain wrong.

If there is one teaching that I would agree is a universal teaching to Jedi, it is the definition of the Force. Both Obi Wan in Episode IV and Yoda in V define the Force as something that "surrounds us, penetrates us and binds all living things together". They didn't say it exactly the same way, but close enough to interpret that they had both been taught that in their Jedi training. That is the kind of evidence that clearly establishes and justifies re-use of quotes that are linked to generalized teachings.

 

And Kanan repeating 'Do or do not...' is presumably meant to be evidence that this too is a generalised teaching, surely? It's actually a pretty neat little way to sum up just what can be done with the Force. You do it... or you do not. There is no try. A typical Yoda-ism, it seems to me.

 

Confident because it was shown to occur that Yoda directly instruct younglings on more than one occasion in canon, but with Kanan referencing it in the show (and admitting that he does not fully understand the meaning behind it) one can reasonably infer that the saying has been used before.

As per the usual, you miss the point that I am (or most anyone else is) making. It isn't that they are staples of Yoda's teachings, but rather that they likely have been said before and are not.... wait for it..... unique to Luke. Whether or not it was a staple to his teachings is not the point or at all relevant to if it has been said before in making the quote or saying unique.

Is it so much a universal teaching, or a factual matter that has been proven through science in the GFFA? I mean midi-chlorians was easily proven by a simple blood test in TPM.

 

Lucas did the same thing. I have mixed feelings over it, sometimes they work but not all the time. Lucas wanted everything repetitious, rhyming like poetry so scenes, characters and dialogue often are repeated overtly or covertly.

 

Really respectable tone there. Is it your lot in life (see what I did there?) to disagree with every single thing I post?

The logic of your first sentence is: Yoda taught young Jedi in a 2002 movie helmed by George Lucas. Kanan was a Young Jedi sometime in never-before-pictured canon. Kanan used the quote "Do or do not, there is no try" in a 2014 TV show helmed by Dave Filoni. Thus, the phrase "Do or do not, there is no try" that was used in 1980 by Yoda clearly could not have been unique to Luke or that circumstance, and clearly was said before by Jedi during his training of Kanan.

Why do you ignore the possibility that Filoni and his team shoehorned this in themselves just to sloppily connect their show and satisfy Disney's order to "give it an OT feel"?

You even disagree that the "surrounds us, penetrates us and binds all living things together" was a universal teaching. So in your Star Wars world, "Do or do not, there is no try" is a universal teaching, when it appeared ONCE in the canon films and was then shoehorned in to a 2014 TV series, and "surrounds us, penetrates us and binds all living things together" couldn't possibly be universal teaching, even though Yoda and Obi wan use it in two separate circumstances, in two different OT films.

Universal teaching vs. "factual science" in Star Wars ---- if that isn't nit picking for the sake of disagreeing at all costs, I don't know what is.

 

Nope! In fact it was you who responded to my post in agreement to jakobitis89. I feel that I have been pretty respectful to you for the most part. Play the victim much?

Yes, this essentially the point I am making. Perhaps you need to go back and watch the scene in which Kanan is training Ezra on top of the Ghost again. Kanan makes direct mention that "Master Yoda sure used to say it a lot." After admitting he did not fully understand the point either. It can be reasonably inferred that the saying is not unique to Luke. Also, I think there were some instances where Yoda was interacting with younglings in TCW.

I tend to look at it as Kanan reflecting on his training at the Temple during the PT era, especially since Kanan has directly mentioned how things were different when he was training to how things are now given how close they are to the events of the Battle of Yavin. I fail to see how this qualifies as shoehorning as it directly relates to training...

It is something that can be scientifically proven in the SWU thanks to midi-chlorians after they were introduced in TPM. Not sure why you are upset over me pointing this out. The Force is no longer a strictly metaphysical mystery like it was when we only had the OT. The introduction of the PT changed this. What Yoda and Kenobi say is a scientific fact further reinforced by midi-chlorians in TPM, the Mortis Arc in TCW, and slightly touched on later in the series in the lost missions when Yoda went to Dagobah for his training.

So you're upset I disagree that the Force in the SWU is very much a scientific aspect, and not so much a spiritual aspect and chose to post about it? Please....

 

Kanan has just appeared in the "canon" in 2014 ---- he is the creation of the Filoni team. Yet here you are, proclaiming that "Do or do not, there is no try" was a phrase Yoda used all the time during Jedi training as opposed to a special word of wisdom he used just in Episode V with Luke because Filoni's show told you so.

If this doesn't show the danger of having Filoni influence classic legacy material, I don't know what does.

Some of us like to keep certain classic characters and moments in the OT special. Some of us want to see the new characters have their own moments and own adventures and establish their own unique catchphrases and words of wisdom. Lando? Who needs to see him before Han and Leia need a safe haven in Episode V? Why should he cross paths w/ the Rebels crew directly and make the galaxy seem that much smaller and contrived?

That serves two purposes ---- it keeps the OT material unique and special, and it keeps the new adventure fresh and interesting.

 

I'm not seeing the problem here when Lucas did a similar thing through the creation of the PT after he did the OT. So it has been formalized that Yoda used the phrase in training or used to say it a lot or used it in specific instances for a purpose in canon. Not sure why you put canon in quotations, when the show is in canon and on the same level of continuity as the films. Much like the new books and comics are. Oh wait, I remember now. The films in your opinion take precedence over everything else in canon. This isn't a retcon as it was never said otherwise prior to Kanan that Yoda had used it one way or the other.

I see we are coming full circle to Filoni's impact on the SW, which was a thread that was locked btw. Let's try to stay on topic here in regards to the quote at hand.

This is cool and all, and I agree with you on Lando but what does any of this have to do with the discussion of how it is inferred that Yoda used the quote more often than originally thought?

This show is already different in that the main characters in the show have no predestined end in the SWU...... Also, it has been awhile since I watched the PT, but I believe the PT made many references to the OT through quotes did it not?

 

Broadening what was up to this point a very special, wise, one-off phrase of Yoda's to be used by Kanan and made out to be used all the time by Yoda is the catch-phrase equivalence of having Lando interact directly with Kanan and co. between Episodes III and IV ---- they make Lando's appearance and Yoda's line in Episode V run-of-the-mill and not special anymore.

Yes, the PT did this, and I've said it before in this thread ---- just because George did it in the PT doesn't make it right!! Having Anakin proclaim "This is where the fun begins" in Episode III (thus ripping off Han's line from Episode IV) was one example.

All it does is confuse, cause eye-rolls, and dull the impact of great lines, characters and moments in the OT. At the same time, it robs the audience of new, fresh great lines, characters and moments in the present day. It comes off as highly insecure storytelling and/or an inability to be creative and come up with your own quality new lines, characters and moments.

 

Yep, nothing about the quote, won't concede the point, and wants to shift to a different topic. I'm done for now.