Saga SW Saga In-Depth In-Depth Discussion Thread

Discussion in 'Star Wars Saga In-Depth' started by only one kenobi, Dec 23, 2013.

  1. Iron_lord Chosen One

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    You are right:

    You did it.
    You killed her.
    You killed her because, finally, when you could have saved her, when you could have gone away with her, when you could have been thinking about her, you were thinking about yourself ...
    It is in this blazing moment that you finally understand the trap of the dark side, the final cruelty of the Sith-
    Because now your self is all you will ever have.
  2. darklordoftech Chosen One

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    Some conclusions that I've drawn from the ANH treatment and Rough Draft:

    In the treatment, an unnamed alien species appears on Yavin. Some members of this species trap Leia and sell her to the Empire while Luke gains the trust of other members of this species. In the Rough Draft, the villainous Yavin aliens became the Yourellians while the friendly Yavin aliens became the Wookiees. In ESB, the Yourellians became the Trandoshans.
    Last edited by darklordoftech, Oct 6, 2014
  3. ATMachine Force Ghost

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    What makes you think the Yourellians are connected to the Trandoshans? I never made that connection before.

    (On a side note, if this is true, I will never be able to look at Bossk again without squirming.)
  4. darklordoftech Chosen One

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    Both are Wookiee-hunting reptiles who are hired by the Empire.
  5. darklordoftech Chosen One

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    Also interesting is that in the ANH treatment, a species that lives on Yavin put Luke through life-threatening trials and then when Luke passes the trials, the Yavin species worships him as a god. In the Legends universe, Exar Kun goes through exactly what Luke goes through in the treatment.
    Last edited by darklordoftech, Oct 7, 2014
  6. ATMachine Force Ghost

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    The idea of Luke doing battle with the natives of a planet, and then being accepted as a friend by them, was also present in the first draft of ESB--where he had to deal with the albino Cloud People who lived on Bespin (or, as it was then known, Hoth).

    The albino cloud aliens seem to be a very Leigh Brackett idea--similar creatures show up in her Martian novel The Sword of Rhiannon, which I'm certain Lucas read.
    Last edited by ATMachine, Oct 7, 2014
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  7. Lt.Cmdr.Thrawn The Other Saga Moderator

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    A random thought I had recently, perhaps in the spirit of ATMachine's Willow speculation thread... at the time of ESB and ROTJ, the 'lava planet' was somewhat vague of a concept but was depicted in concept art as a fortress/home of the 'bad guys.' In ROTJ it would have coincided with the Imperial Capitol. Might this mean that at that point, the duel between Obi-Wan and Anakin could have taken place on the Capitol world (Had Abbadon)? (Of course, Lucas may have just been experimenting, or if it had gone this way, perhaps the duel would have been changed - like how for a brief time, if I recall, it was considered that perhaps Vader had fallen into a nuclear reactor instead of a volcano.)
    Last edited by Lt.Cmdr.Thrawn, Oct 13, 2014
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  8. Darth_Nub Saga, Classic Trilogy and Film Music Manager

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    I've wondered about the connection between the Duel and these OT 'lava settings' as well - in the Brackett draft of ESB, Vader's 'home' is a castle in a crimson sea (presumably lava, or similar), so it may have been the case that he took up residence where he became the monster as a sort of tribute to the Dark Side, or perhaps that's where he resided after turning, but before the Duel itself. Given that this was the pre-Father Vader concept of the character, I'm not sure that the setting was too significant in a narrative sense, just a sort of motif for his history.
    It could also just have easily been an entirely unrelated Brackett creation, and maybe not even lava at all, although a McQuarrie sketch of the planet does suggest a molten, hell-like environment.:

    [IMG]

    However, the Emperor's Throne Room in the early drafts of ROTJ may well have been intended to have been the very same place the Duel occurred, given that the Luke/Vader duel is both a sort of rematch for Vader's soul and a new battle for Luke's. While it's unlikely that it would have been such a throne room at the time of the original duel, one could imagine Palps turning it into a sort of shrine, perhaps as a very cruel taunt.
    Entirely speculative, however - there's no references to the Anakin/Obi-Wan duel in the script, although it's clearly a deliberate visual reference to it, even if it's not the same location.
    Last edited by Darth_Nub, Oct 13, 2014
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  9. ATMachine Force Ghost

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    I'm pretty sure it was Lucas's idea, which he relayed to Brackett, that Vader should have a castle on a mountaintop in the middle of a lava field. Mainly because this is more or less a reference to Fritz Lang's film Die Nibelungen, where the warrior maiden Brunhild lives in a castle on a mountain surrounded by a sea of magical fire. Lang presents Brunhild mainly as a villain, since she's ultimately responsible for the death of the hero Siegfried.

    Lang's film was an influence on Lucas in other ways as well--for instance, he often borrows Lang's striking use of trees as a metaphor for death.
  10. darklordoftech Chosen One

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    It's interesting how Crispin Hoedaack appears in the rough draft, is absent from the second and third drafts, and then returns in the fourth draft as Tarkin.
  11. Lt.Cmdr.Thrawn The Other Saga Moderator

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    Now that I looked at the date on what I'm about to post, it's possible that this has already been talked about, but I figure I'll throw it out there (I'm still curious)...

    In a completely different direction than the costume designs, I ran across this article quoting Dale Pollock and his very vague description of the "original" plans for the SW saga. No actual details, and no new information than what was in Skywalking (I don't think), but he does appear to have talked about this more recently than just in the book. What do we think he's talking about here? He says he saw outlines not only for 7, 8, and 9, but also for 10, 11, and 12. Whatever contact he had would have had to have been during the OT-production era (right?), because the book first came out in 1983.

    So, is he confused as to what he was looking at? What did he actually see (The mostly-blank outlines we have now seen, along with a lot of notes? He claims the Sequels had 'the most exciting' story, which makes it sound like there was more detail)? Could it even be some addition of wishful thinking?
  12. darth-sinister Manager Emeritus

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    I think he's going by what was talked about between 78 and 83, by Lucas and company when they were trying to figure out the Saga. Lucas did tell Hamill about twelve films, according to Hamill when ANH was being made. But I think a lot of it was based on material from that point in time and not the newer stuff that Lucas came up with before he sold his company.
  13. Darth_Nub Saga, Classic Trilogy and Film Music Manager

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    I'm more than a touch skeptical about Pollock's accounts - his descriptions in Skywalking of the original 13-page treatment of SW, then the early drafts, leave a lot to be desired, being confused mashups of other outlines and drafts:

    This description actually refers to the abandoned two-page 'Journal of the Whills' outline, not the 13-page Hidden Fortress-inspired treatment. It's also since been established that the names were actually 'Mace Windy' and 'CJ Thorpe'.

    This is a muddled combination of the Rough and Second drafts, and may also have been confused with the earliest outline and Brackett draft of ESB, which had Luke's sister Nellith sent to the other side of the galaxy for safekeeping (Leia in the Rough draft is actually the daughter of King Kanos). Further descriptions are similarly jumbled, although not to the same extent.
    It's perfectly understandable, given how convoluted and often contradictory these various outlines and drafts were, not to mention character names being switched around, and Pollock would most likely have been working from his own notes, rather than being able to take copies. He was also writing a biography of George Lucas, not a step-by-step analysis of the development of Star Wars. However, these errors did make their way into other publications over time, with Skywalking almost being taken as gospel. His typo/misreading of 'Mace Windy/Windu' even became the official name of a PT character.

    So when Dale Pollock comes out decades later, first in 2005, then 2012, and states that in the early 1980s he saw detailed 5-8 page outlines of each SW film up to and including Episode XII, it's hard to take it as literal fact. As @Lt.Cmdr.Thrawn suggested, most likely he did see some of those largely blank outlines which had 12 films listed, so that's where he got the number of films from. As far as actual details are concerned, however, more likely he attempted to marry this figure with whatever mess of notes and drafts he did see, some of which might simply have been abandoned material for the OT. So yes, a bit of wishful thinking was most likely also at play. Throw a gap of 20+ years in there and you've hardly got the recipe for an accurate recollection.

    It's possible that he did see some now-redundant notes and outlines for post-ROTJ stories, or perhaps even old outlines for the PT, and it'd be great to think that such material might yet see the light of day, but I'm not holding my breath.
    Last edited by Darth_Nub, Nov 10, 2014
  14. Ord-Mantell70 Jedi Grand Master

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    That's rather cohesive with what Rinzler said a couple of years ago, about "a tiny notebook" concerning the sequel trilogy Lucas told him about, which he couldn't see...But isn't he the one who screwed us with the midichlorians dating as far back as 1977 ?

    Anyway, all this is pretty contradictory with what Lucas kept on saying from 1980 to 1983 in many interviews, telling that the sequel plan where very vague and ethereal, suggesting there was no real story or story arc, but only vague ideas and elements. Not speaking of the changing backbone (rebuilding of the Republic and necessity of moral choices, then the reunited cast in their 60's etc...).

    If there was something written from the OT era, it sure is way thiner than the actual prequel outline (8 pages). Probably no more than 2 pages of miscellaneous notes at best.
    Last edited by Ord-Mantell70, Nov 10, 2014
  15. Lt.Cmdr.Thrawn The Other Saga Moderator

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    Where did this info come from?
  16. Darth_Nub Saga, Classic Trilogy and Film Music Manager

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    That was @Ord-Mantell70 describing the length - don't look at me!:p
    It does sound very familiar, though - I seem to recall it being described somewhere as about 8 pages, might have been ten, and that's separate to Pollock's comments. Regarding how much of the outline dealt with each film was from Entertainment Weekly:

    http://www.ew.com/ew/article/0,,1060829_3,00.html


    Mod action: I think some of the recent discussions in this thread are well worthy of their own threads (costumes, concept art, different overall visions). This 'In-Depth In-Depth' thread was originally a merge of some of the more analytical and philosophical discussions which tended to veer off on different tangents. Keep replying in here for now, but maybe we can split some of this off into separate threads, stand by.
    Last edited by Darth_Nub, Nov 11, 2014
  17. ATMachine Force Ghost

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    That sounds fine by me--I'd quite like a separate costumes thread, for instance. It really should have occurred to me to start one by now.
    Last edited by ATMachine, Nov 11, 2014
  18. Ord-Mantell70 Jedi Grand Master

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    Big Breakfast (television show with Johnny Vaughan - July 1999)
    GL : "I have a little story treatment.........Its only about seven or eight pages"

    And it's likely there was some material added during the PT pre-production (1992-1993)...

    Indeed, like ATMMachine mentions above, the vast majority (about 70% according to Lucas) deals with the events of Episode III.

    Also Lucas's interview to Seattle Post-Intelligencer - May 2005 (SHOSW) : "The problem is that 60 percent - maybe 80 percent of the backstory - is contained in Episode III".

    As well as Empire magazine June 2005 (SHOSW) : 60-80 percent.

    That's why I averaged to 70 percent.
    Last edited by Ord-Mantell70, Nov 12, 2014
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  19. Darth_Nub Saga, Classic Trilogy and Film Music Manager

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  20. ATMachine Force Ghost

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    Cool. Thanks, Nub.

    I'm also glad to see my memory didn't fail me with regards to GL's prequel outline being largely devoted to the events of ROTS. Many thanks to Ord-Mantell70 for clarifying the various sources of information about that outline.
  21. oierem Jedi Grand Master

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    I wouldn't take all these quotes literally. At this point, the idea Lucas is selling is that he created a huge 200 page script (which became episodes 4-6) and at the same time he had created a small 8-12 page story treatment about the background of the characters (during the 80s he claimed that he had specific story treatments for all the episodes). We know that there was never a 200 page script which was cut in three, and since the backstory was constantly changing I doubt he ever wrote a proper treatment for the prequels until the 90s.And that treatment would only include the very basic information, I don't think the "60-80%" quote should be taken that literally.
  22. Lt.Cmdr.Thrawn The Other Saga Moderator

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    Although, the "75%" idea seems roughly accurate, because as it turns out, most of that backstory appears to be either in the ROTJ screenplay and/or its novel, plus Making of ROTJ, and most of what he says in those sources does pertain to (what would become) Episode III. I'm not sure that there was much more than what Ben lays out for Luke in the extended speech on Dagobah, plus a few quotes from the story conferences and the backstory to the fall of the Republic and Jedi which had existed fairly consistently since... the second draft of the original film?
    Last edited by Lt.Cmdr.Thrawn, Nov 13, 2014
  23. darth-sinister Manager Emeritus

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    Yep, the second draft was the first time that a detailed account of the backstory existed. The third draft had Luke and Ben discuss war that proceeded the rise of Darth Vader and the death of Luke's father. In fact, comparing what Lucas said in the story meetings to ROTS, there's some similarities and of course, quite a bit of differences. What I've always believed is that when he started work on the PT, he looked at his older drafts and poached ideas presented in those drafts and turned them around into full on stories. The first draft had the Empire blockading Aqualie which is similar to the main plot of TPM and the Sith Knight's attack on Utapau became Maul's attacking Qui-gon on Tatooine. In those instances, Lucas probably counts those as backstory.
  24. Ord-Mantell70 Jedi Grand Master

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    Yeah, on this point, it seems highly cohesive.

    There was almost nothing about Episode I, except Obi-Wan meets Anakin and decides to train him as a Jedi (ROTJ), and very few things dealing specifically with Epidode II, other than that Anakin falls in love and get married. Even the Clone Wars seems to be just a vague concept back then.

    Regarding the PT "outline" length and nature, I agree with oierem it should not be taken literally. Instead of a proper treatment, it was probably closer to a collection of notes regarding events, characters, and some general background information.
  25. ATMachine Force Ghost

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    The Clone Wars were most definitely conceived quite vaguely in the beginning. In the ESB story conference notes from late 1977, Lucas indicates that the clones were the likely villains of the war, who presumably fought against the Republic. This is of course what SW fandom assumed for many years, until AOTC presented a different set of events. (The quote in question also suggests that Lucas then conceived the clones as a pre-existing society, not an army bred specifically for war.)
    In fact, the Clone Wars were likely inspired by Frank Herbert's Butlerian Jihad in Dune: in both cases you have a long-ago war by normal beings against the intelligent products of technology, which is presented only as backstory to the events of the principal narrative. In the case of Dune, however, the war was against "thinking machines" instead of evil clones.

    The original conception of the Clone Wars may also have informed the lack of organic limb replacements in the SW galaxy, just as in Dune the Butlerian Jihad led to a blanket prohibition on the use of intelligent computers. Thus there would originally have been a good in-universe reason why Luke gets a mechanical arm instead of having a living arm cloned for him.
    Last edited by ATMachine, Nov 13, 2014