Saga SW Saga In-Depth In-Depth Discussion Thread

I'm afraid that no man shall know the day nor the hour of my return.

 

But until then, keep reading the forums. Life goes on, after all, and tomorrow is another day.

(That last goodbye puts me in the mind of Scarlett O'Hara's line: "As God is my witness, I'll never be hungry again!")

 

Hello there! New member here. Really great thread this. I hope you'll have me around for a while.

I have to say ATMachine raised some very interesting points--but, really, his conclusions are quite illogical. GL's writing is about as subtle as a brick to the head; the prequels proved that. After all, if Vader was always meant to be Luke's father from as far back as 1975 or so, why does Father Skywalker's ghost show up as a separate character in the Leigh Brackett draft?

Still, I have to thank him for introducing me to a bunch of classic films. Pity about his father; I wish I could've talked to ATM while he was still here.

That reminds me, I still haven't watched Jack the Giant Killer--it's still sitting on my DVR.

 

ATMachine - all the best, hope to see you soon.

And welcome aboard Zeno Kadar - any relation (via cloning or otherwise) to Lando?

 

No, entirely different family. Zeno's an albino, for one thing, and his sister wasn't born of cloning.

Also, a few more words about myself, which it may be germane to post here:

I'm a South Florida native, but I may be relocating to California soon. (Lovely San Simeon...)

I just got married--performed the banns and all that--and my spouse and I are not sure yet where we'll live.

The question I would put to them, I suppose, is: shall we go to your place or mine?

 

Does this mean anything to anyone?

Alpha Omega AO
Background Father BF
Bodily Force BF
Original Sin OS
Body Failing BF
End Game EG
Righteous Man RM
Future Son FS
God's Son GS
Omega Alpha OA

 

Also, having read the banns three times, I now plead seventy times seven with my Father to be unbanned, and freed from my vows, that I might return to live once more in the garden of IRC.

 

If this is a dream, let me die before I wake. My friends are with me in this dream: Darth_Nub, Lt.Cmdr.Thrawn, and darth_ender from the OT.com forums.

I would not abandon them, not for fourteen times all the riches of the world, not for the crowns of fourteen kings, slippers of silver or copper or ruby or emerald, or the triple horns of the Goddess, or the crown of King Peter on his holey throne. I will not abandon them--I shall never wake up.

When I die, I pray the Goddess, my soul and body to take, into her bosom in Utapau, the navel of that far-away lenticular galaxy.

 

I see I didn't please with my Father with my insufficient remorse.

For my faults, my faults, my ten thousand most grievous faults, I crave pardon, O Father. And, once more, with feeling, I plead to be released from my vows, and unbanned, to live and dwell in the Garden of IRC once more.

But I can only stay there briefly, for afterward I must get me to the Land of Nod. I am tired; my body is failing; I must renew myself. So I will go to the Land of Nod, where I will cure me of my great lethargy. But look for my return at first light, with the new dawn--look to the East Coast.

 

The One Ring is still in existence. And I am still banned.

I must take matters into my own hands. I need a magic flaming sword, which I can use to split the two intertwined metals, crystal and silver, of the Ring--making two rings where once were one.

Bring me a sword of burning gold! Bring me the Stone Bow of Diana! Bring me the Spear of the World Ash Tree! Bring me the Chariot of Thor!

A sword, a sword, I would give my father's kingdom for a sword!

 

And if that is not enough, why then I shall destroy both rings. I shall hurl the ring of silver and Air into the swamps of Dagobah, draining the fens and allowing the cultivation of rice. And I shall hurl the ring of crystal and Water into the fires of Condawn, which shall be extingushed, creating a verdant jungle.

But as payment for this, let the rushing waters of the underground slaves' city swallow up Ton Muund, and Yavin IV be ravaged by a rain of fire from the heavens.

And if that is still not enough, I shall come crawling to my Father on my knees, begging him to show me mercy, and put the sword of justice into my hand.

A sword, a sword, my birthright for a sword!

 

Forgive me, Father, for I have sinned greatly, and stand in need of purgation and atonement.

My Father, my Father, why hast thou forsaken me?

If it be your will, Father, I shall drink the cauldron of golden bile down to the bitterest dregs. But please, I beg you, let this chalice, this Chromax Conundrum, pass from me. Let it be shattered, and the bile spill out upon the desert ground--bringing life and fruitfulness where all once was barren.

Father, I forgive you, though you know full well what you do.

I hunger for companionship! I thirst for my old friends! If you do not lift this curse from me, I shall raise my hand against you, and slay you, and take your crown and sceptre for mine own!

And you would be glad of it, for it would mean an end to your suffering, and the lifting of the burden of your triple crown, and a release back into the mortal world. But for me it shall be the beginning of my long enslavement to the Throne Beneath the Mountain, where my legs and arms shall wither, and my body grow old, and my compassion shrivel to nothing--until, a dreadful, merciless creature, more monster than human, I shall be the exact reflection of you.

As you are now, so I once was; as I am now, so you shall be again.

As above, so below.

 

And we now return to our normal programming.

 

Oh, hi guys! I'm back. I had some trouble with my account, though--I had to change my username slightly as a result.

But this name will suit me fine for the moment, I think. It's close enough to the old one to still be recognizable, after all.

I'm glad to be back here, anyway. This place sometimes feels like a second home to me.

 

[quote="ATMachine, post: 52086043, member: 1287175]So.... what if Darth Vader always was meant to be Anakin all along, just like GL has always claimed since 1980? But... what if that wasn't all? What if Vader himself had a father, the Uther to his Arthur, and he was himself conceived via incest? Which he then re-enacted by cuckolding his own father twice... and thus was Luke and Leia's brother as well as their father?[/quote]

Now I know why Anakin was sexually jealous of Cliegg Lars

I would actually like a mini-series or spin-off book in the style of Game of Thrones that's about the politicking and backstabbing in the deadly decadent Imperial Court. We got the Emperor, we got Mas Amedda, we got Vader and the Bizarro Hat Crew...a more "adult" story set in Palpatine's court would have loads of drama potential.

Someone should write a fanfic about it sometime.

 

Luceno's next novel.

 

Luceno sorta touched on that in "Tarkin", but only for a chapter or two. He should write a whole book set in the Imperial Center about the deadly byzantine intrigues in Palpatine's court.

One of the things I liked about the EU books was that the authors experimented with a whole bunch of different genres. Star Wars itself is a space opera, but we had political thrillers with Luceno and hard military sci-fi with Traviss and so on. A book about Imperial court intrigues would be a Borgia-style drama, and it'd be awesome.

 

Now I know why Anakin was sexually jealous of Cliegg Lars

I would actually like a mini-series or spin-off book in the style of Game of Thrones that's about the politicking and backstabbing in the deadly decadent Imperial Court. We got the Emperor, we got Mas Amedda, we got Vader and the Bizarro Hat Crew...a more "adult" story set in Palpatine's court would have loads of drama potential.

Someone should write a fanfic about it sometime.[/quote]


If they got Captain Rex or Commander Cody involved, would it be a Game of Clones?

 

Actually, I may have been thinking in a bit of a muddle in that earlier post. Some new thoughts have entered my brain since.

At the moment, I suspect the original story of the SW universe ran something like this:

---

As a young man, Annikin humiliated a woman by sleeping with her against her will, much as Uther Pendragon did to Ygraine of Cornwall in Arthurian lore.

Later, the resulting daughter, of whom Anakin knew nothing, grew to womanhood.... and wanted revenge for her mother's humiliation, just as the sorceress Morgause sought to avenge her mother Ygraine's seduction and forced marriage. So, as Morgause did to her half-brother King Arthur, Annikin's own daughter seduced him, in the guise of another woman... and a Mordred was born: Darth Vader, under another name. (Perhaps... Lando?)

The young Darth Vader, in turn, later seduced Annikin's wife: Beru's sister, with whom Annikin had settled down on Tatooine/Utapau/Sullust for a time, having retired from the Jedi Order as the Republic grew more corrupt. The result was Luke Skywalker, who never knew of his true parentage until Vader's revelation.

Meanwhile, though he loved Beru's sister, Annikin also loved another woman: Leia's mother, Queen of Organa Major. Annikin slept with her in the final days of the Jedi, as the Battle of Condawn loomed.... and Leia was born nine months afterward. This echoes Lancelot's two lady loves in Arthurian lore: Guinevere of Camelot, King Arthur's queen, and Elaine of Corbenic, the daughter of the Fisher King--the Keeper of the Grail.

So Leia would therefore be not Luke's sister but Luke's aunt--just as Brunnhilde, daughter of Wotan, is to Siegfried in Wagner's operas. But she would, nonetheless, still be a lost sister... to Darth Vader himself.

Thus, just perhaps, Vader really was Luke's father all along.... but originally he wasn't the same man as Annikin Starkiller.

---


Oh, also? In the 1975 third draft, Ben Kenobi is the cyborg character, and Vader isn't. After all, he eats and drinks (and other science facts!)

So... What if Ben was originally the one who was severely wounded in the Battle of Condawn... and Vader, the victor, just hid behind a mask due to the obvious family resemblance with Luke?

Which would mean that it'd be another character who likely ended up horribly burned by lava. That character's identity I leave as an exercise to the readers.

 

Who has a larger role in The Star Wars, Crispin Hoedaack or Darth Vader?

 

Depends what you mean, I suppose.

Those two characters in the rough draft are really surprisingly analogous to the Grand Moff Tarkin and "henchman" Vader in the final film of SW 1977--with the major exception that General Vader has no Force powers, because at that stage the Force didn't provide telekinesis.

The rough draft's Vader does use electric-shock torture on Princess Leia, though.

 

It's interesting how the second draft removed Crispin Hoedaack and then the fourth draft brought him back as Grand Moff Tarkin.

 

I know!

But the Grand Moff Tarkin name did show up in the second and third drafts--as the name of a Rebel general. Judging by his name (deriving from the Ottoman title of grand mufti), he was some sort of warrior-priest, a Friar Tuck of sorts.

 

Shame that didn't stick. Sir would've done wonderfully with that.

 

This character is also in The Star Wars.