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  1. In Memory of LAJ_FETT: Please share your remembrances and condolences HERE

Saga SW Saga In-Depth In-Depth Discussion Thread

Discussion in 'Star Wars Saga In-Depth' started by only one kenobi, Dec 23, 2013.

  1. ATMachine

    ATMachine Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Feb 27, 2007
    Nub, it might be more accurate to say simply that, until GL wrote the second draft of ESB in early 1978, Darth Vader and Annikin Skywalker were not the same person.

    I've wondered from time to time if the original "secret" behind Vader's mask was that Vader was Luke's real father--i.e., Darth Vader slept with Annikin Skywalker's wife.
     
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  2. Darth_Nub

    Darth_Nub Manager Emeritus star 5 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

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    Apr 26, 2009

    That's one potential time-bomb, but there's nothing to indicate that this was the case prior to the second draft of ESB in any way at all, and by that time, it's pretty definite that GL had committed to Father Vader being legitimate (or maybe not...?).

    Regardless, the only existing 'revelation' we're aware of that came to be between the 1975 discussion where GL mentioned that we'll "learn who Darth Vader is" (at which time, said revelation was not intended to be specifically indicated in the first film) and the 1977 film is that Vader murdered Luke's father - hence why a conservative approach leads one to match one with the other.

    Another bit of speculation that came up in a 1982 sci-fi magazine was that Vader was a clone of Luke's father - however, this was a post-ESB fan theory, effectively contaminated by Vader's line in ESB, with no relation whatsoever to the 1975 conversation, which was not public knowledge at the time. It's also just rampant speculation desperately latching onto the 'Clone Wars' briefly mentioned in SW/ANH which were never elaborated upon in any way.
    Pre-ESB, Luke Skywalker was the good guy, Darth Vader was the bad guy - the original film didn't lend itself to moral and character-based grey areas, so there simply wasn't any reason to connect the two characters on such an intimate level.
    "I am your father" changed all that, regardless of whether or not you believed it at the time - but prior to ESB's premiere in May 1980, it was still just goodies vs baddies for the audience.

    Tantalising (and titillating!) though your theory about Luke being the bastard child of Darth Vader and Mother Skywalker might be, it's contaminated in much the same way. Be honest - would you have considered such an idea without Vader's immortal line having ever been uttered?

    (Sorry to be such a negative nancy, but I'm a technician by trade - when someone comes to me with a great idea, the first thing I'm required to do is figure out all the reasons why it won't work. If there aren't any, we're all happy - if there are and they go ahead despite my objections, misery ensues)
     
  3. ATMachine

    ATMachine Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Feb 27, 2007
    Despite what I said above, I don't think Vader being Luke's real father (by virtue of cuckolding Annikin) is the only possible interpretation of GL's "we learn who Darth Vader is" quote. Far from it, in fact.

    GL was pretty clearly throwing around half-formed ideas for sequels, and one of those was obviously that Vader would turn out to be *somebody* important beneath his mask. I've argued above that simply revealing Vader as Luke's father's murderer (as zombie thinks was the original idea) would be rather dull, since the audience would likely have presumed that from the beginning. But of course this may be exactly why that particular plot twist was changed.

    Mind you, GL also described ROTJ in 1975 as "the saga of the Skywalker family," which suggests that another Skywalker family member was likely to show up somewhere. This is one of the things which suggest to me that Vader being one of Luke's relatives was a possibility from the 1975 third draft onward.

    Of course, even if that's true, Vader's precise connection to Luke was almost certainly not the Father Vader revelation as we now know it. Heck, Vader could just as easily have been Luke's older brother. ;)

    Still, there's no reason to expect that Vader, even a Darth Vader who was secretly another Skywalker, would have to be redeemed at the end of Luke's story arc. Vader could just as easily have stayed evil, and been killed by Luke. After all, the Sith are depicted as pretty much uniformly villainous from the 1975 second draft onward.
     
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  4. darklordoftech

    darklordoftech Force Ghost star 6

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    Sep 30, 2012
    I wonder why Alderaan was changed from the name of the Imperial capital to the name of the planet that Leia is princess of. I also wonder why Leia's last name was changed from Antilles to Organa.
     
  5. ATMachine

    ATMachine Jedi Master star 4

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    Feb 27, 2007
    I've never heard of Leia being called "Leia Antilles." You seem to be confusing the name of her foster father, Bail Organa, with that of Bail Antilles.

    However, the basic questions which you're asking, oddly enough, are interrelated.

    In the first draft of SW 1977, Leia's full name was Leia Aquilae, and Aquilae was also the name of her home planet. Likewise, in the third draft, she was Princess Leia Organa of the planet Organa Major.

    The idea in both cases was that Leia's surname was the same as the name of her planet--her father was the planet's King, so she was a member of the royal house. Rather like how English nobles took titles based on their residences in the countryside, which were frequently used as surnames (e.g., the Duke of Buckingham, feudal lord of the town of Buckingham, would be referred to simply as "Buckingham").

    Beginning with the fourth draft of the original SW film, the democratic character of the Republic was emphasized, and Bail Organa became a presidential-type chief executive or "viceroy" instead of a King. (This was also the point at which the evil bureaucrat Governor Tarkin entered the story--in the third draft Darth Vader had been the stand-out bad guy.) The idea of royalty and nobility in the SW universe all but disappeared until the prequels.

    Also in the fourth draft, partly to streamline the story and partly due to budget concerns, the prison planet Alderaan (where Leia was held captive) disappeared, and the Imperial prison base was merged with the Death Star. So GL, apparently not wanting to lose the name Alderaan, preserved it by renaming Leia's adoptive home planet--which also downplayed the original royal associations of her surname.
     
  6. darth-sinister

    darth-sinister Manager Emeritus star 10 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

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    Jun 28, 2001
    Right. Leia was never Antilles. The Bail Antilles of TPM was going to be Bail Organa, but it seems like Lucas was going for a reverse on the naming tradition of married couples where the woman takes the man's last name, only here Bail would take his wife's name. At least, that was the speculation back in 1999-2000, before Jimmy Smits was confirmed as playing Bail Organa. Bail Antilles wound up being a separate senator from Bail Organa, beginning in late 2001/early 2002.
     
  7. Iron_lord

    Iron_lord Chosen One star 10

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    Sep 2, 2012
    In the ANH comic, Leia's "father" is introduced as Bail Antillies (slightly different spelling) - possibly from a early draft.
     
  8. darklordoftech

    darklordoftech Force Ghost star 6

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    Sep 30, 2012
    I got "Leia Antilles" from the Behind the Scenes section of this Wookieepedia article: http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Leia_(The_Star_Wars)

    I've since checked the third draft, and it appears that Wookieepedia is wrong.
     
  9. darklordoftech

    darklordoftech Force Ghost star 6

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    Sep 30, 2012
  10. Iron_lord

    Iron_lord Chosen One star 10

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    Sep 2, 2012
    There was an August 1977 interview as well:

     
  11. darklordoftech

    darklordoftech Force Ghost star 6

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    Sep 30, 2012
    And in Starlog in 1980, Hamill said, ""I remember very early on asking who my parents were and being told that my father and Obi Wan met Vader on the edge of a volcano and they had a duel. My father and Darth Vader fell into the crater and my father was instantly killed. Vader crawled out horribly scarred, and at that point the Emperor landed and Obi Wan ran into the forest, never to be seen again."
     
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  12. Iron_lord

    Iron_lord Chosen One star 10

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    Sep 2, 2012
    Which would suggest that the reactor bit:



    would have been something of a retcon, if they'd gone through with it.
     
  13. darklordoftech

    darklordoftech Force Ghost star 6

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    Sep 30, 2012
    I guess so. I wonder if Kasdan came up with the reactor and then Lucas said, "Nope, he fell into a volcanon."
     
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  14. Jangounchained1990

    Jangounchained1990 Jedi Knight star 2

    Registered:
    May 31, 2015
    When ever there is a new incarnation of something old the critics of said incarnation will always have the nostalgia argument thrown at them what ever it is valid or not.

    Here are some exampels.

    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]


    [​IMG][​IMG]

    [​IMG][​IMG]

    [​IMG][​IMG]

    And before you ask me YES adults really do fight over childrens cartoon whats even worse I took part in it at one time [face_sigh]
     
  15. PCCViking

    PCCViking Chosen One star 10

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    Jun 12, 2014

    So, Anakin did fall into a burning ring of fire. ;)
     
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  16. ATMachine

    ATMachine Jedi Master star 4

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    Feb 27, 2007
    George Lucas wrote the second-draft script for ESB in early 1978; the handwritten copy is dated April 1 of that year, with a revised typewritten version following slightly later. So the idea of Vader falling into a nuclear reactor definitely post-dates the late 1977 conception of Vader plunging into a volcano.

    I will note, however, that before the Rolling Stone interview of August '77, there's no indication that Vader was ever injured in such an extreme fashion. The idea of Vader wearing a life-support suit as a result of his severe wounds in The Duel seems to have come about only after the first film was made.
     
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  17. ATMachine

    ATMachine Jedi Master star 4

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    Feb 27, 2007
    Well, the actor who played Bail Organa in TPM had his character's name retroactively changed to Bail Antilles when Jimmy Smits was cast for AOTC... does that count? :p
     
  18. Lt.Cmdr.Thrawn

    Lt.Cmdr.Thrawn Manager Emeritus star 6 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

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    Sep 23, 1999
    This was always strange to me. There is that character, "Bail Antilles of Alderaan," mentioned by name in TPM. Even when the film came out, I wondered if this was supposed to be a mention of Bail Organa. Doesn't it seem possible that the name was changed even before TPM was finished, given that line?

    I so wish there were a Rinzler Making Of The Phantom Menace.

    And as for Vader and life-support... we all know the story of McQuarrie designing the breath mask for a spacewalk scene that didn't make it to the final film, with the design being retained anyway. And obviously the breathing sound was intentionally done for the film. The stormtroopers and TIE pilots also wear helmets - but no breath sound. Only Vader has it... I'm not saying you're necessarily wrong about the backstory being invented post-first-film, but why would Vader be the only one to have that sound associated, if it wasn't something unique to him (i.e., backstory events for example)?
     
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  19. ATMachine

    ATMachine Jedi Master star 4

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    Feb 27, 2007
    Actually, the idea of Vader wearing a life-support suit probably came about with the fourth-draft script of January 1976.

    Before this point, the "armored spacesuit" concept was still in place, so Vader apparently could take off his helmet. Thus, one scene in the August 1975 third draft features him using the Force to summon a cup of water and then drinking from it. In the fourth draft, though, the equivalent scene has Vader crush the cup with the Force.

    Nonetheless, Lucas seems to have come up with the concept of Darth Vader wearing a suit of life-support armor first; only later, after finishing the first film, did he go back to consider why Vader might need such armor in the first place.

    However, in the third draft, it seems Ben Kenobi was to be the film's cyborg character instead -- he has a prosthetic right arm, which is revealed during Luke's visit to his home on Utapau/Tatooine.
     
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  20. Arawn_Fenn

    Arawn_Fenn Chosen One star 7

    Registered:
    Jul 2, 2004
    The thing with the cup made its way into the film's comic adaptation:

    [​IMG]
     
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  21. MatthewZ

    MatthewZ Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    Sep 21, 2003
    Off topic....

    I'm old school as it gets, but I thought Spectacular Spiderman was very good. Great action sequences.
     
  22. Jangounchained1990

    Jangounchained1990 Jedi Knight star 2

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    May 31, 2015

    It was an alright show but as a response to it's backlash people hailed it like it was the second coming of Christ.
     
  23. darth-sinister

    darth-sinister Manager Emeritus star 10 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

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    Jun 28, 2001

    Well, the idea of a cyborg went back to the first draft with Kane Starkiller and then to Montross Holdaack in the second draft. In all three drafts, the cyborg character gets enraged and smashes their arm. By the fourth draft, the idea seemed to somewhat disappear. Lucas didn't have Vader smash his arm, but he did start moving towards the walking iron lung suit by that point. So it was something that Lucas was interested in from the very start.
     
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  24. ATMachine

    ATMachine Jedi Master star 4

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    Feb 27, 2007
    True. But in all of the instances before the fourth draft, the cyborg character was a hero, not a villain. The turn toward putting Vader in a "walking iron lung" in the January 1976 fourth draft moved sharply away from that idea.
     
  25. The_Phantom_Calamari

    The_Phantom_Calamari Force Ghost star 5

    Registered:
    Nov 10, 2011

    He's a hero, but he's still a tragic character. The seeds for that kind of character were planted right from the beginning.

    And you can't say the fourth draft moved sharply away from that idea. The cyborg may have become a villain, but there's evidence to suggest that he was still a tragic character, even before the point we can all agree he made Vader the father. From a story conference with Leigh Brackett before she wrote the first draft of ESB:

    “Vader is completely consumed by the evil side of the Force. He is an instrument of the Force rather than having his own free will in terms of what he does. He really is driven by the Force. When we kill him off in the next one, we’ll reveal what he really is. He wants to be human—he’s still fighting in his own way the dark side of the Force. He doesn’t want to be a bad man, but he is. He can’t resist it. He’s struggling somehow to get out of what he is, struggling with his humanity."

    "Struggling with his humanity" is exactly what Kane Starkiller was doing in the 1975 rough draft. I think it's pretty clear that some of Kane Starkiller's DNA found its way into the fourth draft Darth Vader character. As usual, the truth is way more complicated than "Lucas was lying to make himself look clever."
     
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