main
side
curve
  1. In Memory of LAJ_FETT: Please share your remembrances and condolences HERE

Saga SW Saga In-Depth In-Depth Discussion Thread

Discussion in 'Star Wars Saga In-Depth' started by only one kenobi, Dec 23, 2013.

  1. darth-sinister

    darth-sinister Manager Emeritus star 10 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

    Registered:
    Jun 28, 2001
    The most we do know from Lucas's own words.

    "After Darth Sidious' first apprentice is killed, he has to come up with a new apprentice, and rather than coming up with some baby that he trains from birth, which is what he should have done--well, he shouldn't have gotten himself in a position of getting his apprentice killed anyways--he's decided to make his move, so he needs somebody that was already trained. The point is to set up that he turned this one Jedi, so that he could turn another Jedi. It has to be set up that way."

    --George Lucas, AOTC DVD Commentary.


    So at some point, whether it was when he had the basic outline ready in 1996, or in the fall of 1999 when he began writing AOTC, he had decided that he wanted the Dooku character to be similar to Anakin. In the same commentary, he points out how Dooku says things that Anakin himself also says. Then he looked back to Prince Valorum from his first draft, who was a Jedi who had become disillusioned by what the Jedi had become and joined the Sith. Note that Dooku's backstory in the old EU was reflective of this.

    I recall reading that as well, but I don't have that quote.
     
    darklordoftech likes this.
  2. The_Phantom_Calamari

    The_Phantom_Calamari Force Ghost star 5

    Registered:
    Nov 10, 2011

    IMO, it's possible that something like this was still supposed to be the case even up to the point of current canon. After all, TCW confirms that there is indeed a "Sith homeworld" called Moraband. Now, perhaps this is simply supposed to be the planet where the original Sith organization headquartered itself, but personally I'd lean more towards it being a nod by Lucas to his old idea of a preexisting race from which the Sith took their name.
     
  3. darklordoftech

    darklordoftech Force Ghost star 6

    Registered:
    Sep 30, 2012
    The third draft's opening crawl says, "The Emperor knows that one more such defeat will bring a thousand more solar systems into the rebellion, and Imperial control of the Outland systems could be lost forever." The fourth draft changed this to, "The Empire knows that one more such defeat could bring a thousand more solar systems into the rebellion, and Imperial control over the galaxy would be lost forever." I noticed that "Emperor" got replaced with "Empire." Is this when GL decided to make Palpatine a figurehead? If so, I wonder why GL did this.
     
    Tosche_Station likes this.
  4. Admiral Volshe

    Admiral Volshe Chosen One star 10

    Registered:
    Sep 2, 2012
    I really think it's just aesthetics.

    If you think about it, green is often the colour of life in forests and plants and so on. Just as you said red can be menacing and evil.

    I think honestly, the grey with the striking green looked better, just as the slightly warmer and not as starkly coloured rebel ships looked better with the red.

    Or it could also be related to Red Squadron, now that I think about it.
     
    sarlaccsaurs-rex likes this.
  5. BigAl6ft6

    BigAl6ft6 Chosen One star 8

    Registered:
    Nov 12, 2012
    Someone at my work said they hadn't seen the series (hey, they DO exist) and they watched Episode VI already so I told them to view them "flashback order": IV, V, I, II, III, VI. Hopefully that pans out, think it's a neat way to show off the Saga, keeping the biggest twist under wraps, showing how it happens, everything pays off in "Jedi".
     
  6. darklordoftech

    darklordoftech Force Ghost star 6

    Registered:
    Sep 30, 2012
    Is it possible that the special editions are a result of the Whills revising their journal? Could each new edition of the movies be a new revision of the Journal of the Whills?
     
  7. PCCViking

    PCCViking Chosen One star 10

    Registered:
    Jun 12, 2014

    I doubt we Whill ever find out. ;)
     
  8. Tosche_Station

    Tosche_Station Jedi Master star 2

    Registered:
    Feb 9, 2015
    ATMachine....???
     
  9. Tosche_Station

    Tosche_Station Jedi Master star 2

    Registered:
    Feb 9, 2015
    Poster @Samuel Vimes brought up something that I hadn't fully considered at the time...this line from TESB:

    Vader: "Obi-Wan never told you what happened to your father"....

    Now, I believe this line does originate from Lucas/his draft(s), even though it appears in Kasdan's re-writes (?). My point is, how could Vader be so sure that Obi-Wan had "never told" Luke what had happened to his father? Unless...Vader figured that Obi-Wan himself didn't know the full truth of what really happened (?). The line, imho, makes more sense under the operating assumption that "Obi-Wan assumed that Anakin/Annikin was the father of Luke, whereas Vader knew* better", than either "Annikin/Anakin really was the father, and Vader really did kill him", or "Anakin was the father, but turned evil and became Vader (of which Obi-Wan was fully aware)."

    * or, Ben DID know, but was so disgusted with it that he wanted Luke to believe that he was Annikin's son, despite the truth.
     
  10. Force Smuggler

    Force Smuggler Force Ghost star 7

    Registered:
    Sep 2, 2012
    Hmm. Very interesting.
     
  11. Darth_Nub

    Darth_Nub Manager Emeritus star 5 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

    Registered:
    Apr 26, 2009
    Yes, very interesting, and the logic is sound, but I think it points towards something else, and more in keeping with the accepted story. On a straightforward level, Vader was able to sense that Luke didn't yet know that he was his father, either via the Force, or simply by observing Luke's reactions to him (pure hatred, fear etc, unclouded by any conflict or confusion). Luke confronted Vader exactly as one would expect he would the man who he believed murdered his father. Therefore, it was a pretty safe assumption that Obi-Wan hadn't told him the full story. Vader was then proven right by Luke's reaction to the revelation.

    On another level, Vader could also or otherwise have meant that whatever Obi-Wan told Luke was just from the point of view of some Jedi Knight, who had no true understanding of the Dark Side, or what Anakin had gone through, i.e. the 'why' of what had happened to him (as you put it, "Vader figured that Obi-Wan himself didn't know the full truth of what really happened").

    I don't think it really indicates any sort of ambiguity regarding the now-established Father Vader himself, although one has to wonder what GL had in mind regarding the specifics at the time (Obi-Wan's connection post-Duel, in particular), none of which have ever been revealed - however, I don't believe that it was ever considered that Obi-Wan was unaware that Darth Vader was Luke's father, if that's what's being suggested.
     
  12. ATMachine

    ATMachine Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Feb 27, 2007
    Variant manuscript texts? How very medieval.
     
    Tosche_Station likes this.
  13. darklordoftech

    darklordoftech Force Ghost star 6

    Registered:
    Sep 30, 2012
    When the Emperor was supposed to be a figurehead, I wonder: Was the idea that he wanted to do the right thing but was being lied to by Tarkin and similar people or was the idea that he encouraged the tyranny if Tarkin and similar people but was too busy partying in his palace to be involved in the Empire's decision-making process?
     
    Tosche_Station likes this.
  14. ATMachine

    ATMachine Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Feb 27, 2007
    Depends on whether you want the Emperor to be like Adolf Hitler in encouraging "working towards the Fuehrer" (the latter option) or a good-hearted but naive guy like the Mongol Emperor from the Buck Rogers strip (the former).

    As far as SW 1974 canon goes, I'd say Space Hitler is more likely -- GL is careful to tell us that the guy has a moustache, after all. But it's also evident that GL thought the Imperial system as a whole was corrupt, and that replacing one Emperor with another wouldn't be enough of a change to reform the evil nature of the Empire. (Compare the reference to "the later corrupt Emperors" in the plural in the SW 1977 novelization).
     
  15. PCCViking

    PCCViking Chosen One star 10

    Registered:
    Jun 12, 2014
    I know there have been comparisons made of the Empire to Nazi Germany, but I would say that the Empire was more like the German Empire under the Kaiser.

    Like the Galactic Empire, the German Empire was a monarchy (kaiser, Emperor); like the Galactic Empire, the German Empire came about through manipulation and war (the Clone Wars; Bismarck).

    Now, the First Order would be more like the Nazi regime proper.

    Hux's speech is very Hitleresque; the rally on Starkiller Base is very reminiscent of the Nuremberg rallies; the First Order's violation of the Galactic Concordance like the Nazis' defiance of the Treaty of Versailes (although this last part is mentioned in background information and not in the movie itself.
     
    Valairy Scot and Force Smuggler like this.
  16. Bantha Foodoo

    Bantha Foodoo Jedi Youngling

    Registered:
    Dec 21, 2015
    On the Vader-"never told you" thing. Also, Luke did not say "Ben why did you lie to me?" He said "why didnt you tell me?" Not sure if it makes a difference.
    Interesting idea on the parentage ambiguity.
    Another shocker would have been if he said "No, you killed your father."

    That his father was prisoner on the Death Star when he blew it up. Should have checked those other detention cells a little closer. They didnt even bother to free other political prisoners did they? ;)
     
  17. Darth_Nub

    Darth_Nub Manager Emeritus star 5 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

    Registered:
    Apr 26, 2009
    Regarding ESB and the "Obi-Wan never told you what happened to your father" line - ESB has become something of an oddity in the SW Saga for me, as it represents a crossroads where a number of options for moving forward were possible, and were being genuinely considered at the same time. The 12-episode/ongoing 'Adventures of Luke Skywalker'. The 9-episode 'Trilogy of Trilogies'. Even the eventual six-episode 'Star Wars Saga' that GL settled upon for a time.

    Both Gary Kurtz and Lawrence Kasdan have acknowledged that the Darth Vader of ESB was a different character to the one we saw in ROTJ (and which the PT would provide the background for), he was far more in control of himself and his own destiny - even the earliest drafts of ROTJ reflect this. Vader wasn't quite the slave to Palpatine/the Sith/the Dark Side that he was eventually shown to be.

    Point being, when Darth Vader had Luke Skywalker cornered in Cloud City, we can't be entirely sure just what was going on in terms of his own motivations. It certainly fits well enough with the existing Saga, but taking other possibilities into account, was Vader actively pursuing his own redemption despite his Master's orders (much like the earliest influences for the character - Prince Valorum in the Rough Draft of SW, based directly upon General Tadokoro in Kurosawa's The Hidden Fortress)? This sounds more like what Kurtz and Kasdan have said about the ESB-era characterisation of Darth Vader - an honourable man trying to right the wrongs that he's done.

    How serious was Vader when he said that he and Luke could overthrow the Emperor - and was this meant to be as Sith master and apprentice, or as two Jedi?

    Going even further - was what Vader said to Luke in ESB even true, or was he lying? Could GL have gone in a completely different direction altogether?

    Given the number of possibilities that were being considered at the time, I think it's difficult to pinpoint just what Vader meant with certain lines, but it does suggest that they may have indicated scenarios and meanings other than what what was established by the PT.

    "Obi-Wan never told you what happened to your father", followed by, "No, I am your father" - seems pretty clear-cut (i.e. Obi-Wan lied to shelter Luke from the truth) - but it's since been revealed that GL once considered while writing the PT that Qui-Gon Jinn was an apprentice of Obi-Wan Kenobi, who took on his master's identity after he died. Who knows what wacky ideas he might have considered regarding Vader and Obi-Wan? Clones? Brothers?
     
  18. only one kenobi

    only one kenobi Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    Nov 18, 2012

    See...this is what I love about Star Wars. It could have gone in so many directions.... which is why I find it not a little amusing when there are those attempting to spin the notion that following movies can define what was 'always intended' by the previous ones. I can understand why there was a negative reaction to ROTJ (beyond just the Ewoks and DS mk II), because it just seems to wrap the whole thing up in pretty bows as a happy finale. If it wasn't for the Luke/Vader scenes at the end it would, I think, have very little merit otherwise.
     
  19. Bantha Foodoo

    Bantha Foodoo Jedi Youngling

    Registered:
    Dec 21, 2015
    Clones! Brothers! Interesting idea!

    They could have gone in a completely different direction after the first movie--I have vague memories of that period when Splinter of the Mind's Eye was out-and everything was so vague. The universe was even big enough to have a totally different set of characters dealing with other areas of the Empire, with perhaps only Darth Vader showing up as a wandering agent of chaos-stirring up trouble where he could. They could have explored the space western aspects instead (the Han Solo novels being an example of that).

    Been thinking about the added title A New Hope. The original text states that the rebels won their first battle. The text does not in any way refer to the Force or Luke's family. So, as of 1978, if the New Hope was the battle plans of the Death Star, what was the previous hope? It could have been an entirely different set of characters with only Darth Vader involved.
     
    ATMachine and only one kenobi like this.
  20. Darth_Nub

    Darth_Nub Manager Emeritus star 5 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

    Registered:
    Apr 26, 2009

    'Episode IV: A New Hope' was a later addition than that - its first appearance was in the 1979 publication The Art of Star Wars, and may have been in further editions of the novelisation after that. It was also referred to in the press surrounding ESB in 1980, heralding ESB being nominated 'Episode V'.

    On film, it first appeared in the opening scroll of SW/ANH in the 1981 re-release, one year after ESB.
    SW did get a few re-releases in 1978 & 1979, but they had the same opening scrolls as in 1977 - the title was Star Wars, no episode number.
     
  21. darklordoftech

    darklordoftech Force Ghost star 6

    Registered:
    Sep 30, 2012
    Vader could have been Obi-Wan's son, as could Luke.

    "The Sith" that Vader is Lord of could have been non-Force-users. I get the impression that the Sith were intended to be the SS to Palpatine's Hitler.
     
    Tosche_Station likes this.
  22. Darth_Nub

    Darth_Nub Manager Emeritus star 5 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

    Registered:
    Apr 26, 2009

    More like the CIA and Black Ops (perhaps even the Mafia?) to Palpatine's Nixon. Despite the obvious and universal Hitler/dictator parallels that exist, GL himself has always claimed that Palps was based upon Richard Nixon - he, and the Empire, were what people feared could happen to the United States, not merely what had happened in the past countless times.
    The Hitler parallels are there, but they tend to be overstated, due to the WWII imagery used by Ralph McQuarrie in the visual design of the OT.

    The historical influences in SW are from all over the place - a 'Republic' becoming an 'Empire' is from Ancient Rome for a start. The Clone Wars, with its 'Confederacy of Independent Systems' aka 'The Separatists' derives, in part, from the US Civil War. The Trade Federation (which has its roots in the Rough/First Draft of SW, with its trader barons and guilds) seems to be based more upon contemporary (1960s/1970s) concerns than historical ones. GL admitted that the Ewoks vs Imperials conflict in ROTJ, which was originally Wookiees vs Imperials in the Rough/First Draft of SW was a direct metaphor for the Vietnam War.
     
  23. friedbantha

    friedbantha Jedi Padawan star 1

    Registered:
    Dec 26, 2015
    Let me attempt to address all of your points here, but I want to be clear up front that I am providing my own interpretation of the saga as a whole. I don't believe in resorting to what Lucas said or what [insert actor/writer/director/original script] said for a number of reasons. The first reason is because I believe in the concept of the "death of the author." When a writer or an artist creates something they may have one intent, but then their own work is interpreted differently by others as it should be. Each of us should view the saga from our own perspectives and draw what we believe from it for artistic purposes. That is the whole point of art - creating thought. If all the answers are set in stone it might as well be non-fiction. Second, as a practical matter I don't believe the aims of one person in creating a frame, or a color scheme, or a dialogue becomes the essence of that creation. As an analogy since you discussed democracy in your post, look at how laws are created by a legislating body. One of the reasons Judge's are cautious at reading legislative intent is because it is so amorphous. Does the drafter of the law, meaning the person who physically proposed the law to for example the House of Representatives in the U.S., have the final say on how to interpret that law. They may have written it with a team of other drafters and they proposed it, but ultimately the law, if enacted, is the result of consensus from hundreds of individuals each holding unique interpretations and views of how that law should be interpreted. In the U.S. and most western countries, that's why Judge's exist. To apply the law and interpret its meaning because relying on a diverse legislature is impossible. I view Lucas's creations in the same way. It isn't enough to look to his statements to find "the true meaning" because the actor, the cinematographer, the editor, the composer, and the effects personnel all have heir unique views of what is happening as well. This alone, at least in my view, makes relying on Lucas's (or Abrams's or Kasdan's or Kennedy's) sole view on a topic dubious. Their views are certainly more persuasive than say, the sound technician, but they aren't paramount and/or omniscient.

    I wrote all of that to say that the beauty of the prequels is in their ambiguity. It took me a long time to appreciate this and love it. Indeed, when Episode 1 and 2 first came out I hated them. I thought the same thing you think now - that they were altering the conceptions of the Jedi and the Republic from the OT. But then Inchanged my view and came around to really truly embracing the PT for logical and artistic reasons.

    The logical explanation is that older generations always romanticize about their era. If you've ever spoken to a member of America's greatest generation and genuinely asked about their experiences in the Great Depression and the Second World War, by and large you get a romanticized version of perseverance. They talk about the good old days when America was pure and people were good and the evil of fascism was defeated. Well...that's partly true. But they typically fail to discuss segregation, or some of the questionable things the allies did in the war, or the naivety they held relating to politics in their time. It is all very romanticized. This makes sense in the context of Obi Wan talking to Luke about the past. He's remembering much of it in a better light relative to the current Empire, which makes perfect sense. The Empire is evil, and by contrast the Old Republic seems like a utopia; that doesn't mean, however, the Republic wasn't gravely flawed.

    Another logical consideration is that Ben Kenobi has changed from Obi Wan Kenobi. Obi Wan was loyal - to a fault - to the Jedi code and the Jedi counsel. Where did that get him? Perhaps Ben focuses more on the Jedi way of life now because that's the only belief he still has. He has no faith left in the "Jedi Order" itself and recognizes how it failed.

    The artistic reasons are far more important. My interpretation of the PT is that the Jedi Order and the so called democracy were ABSOLUTELY doing things that were highly questionable. Sending Jedi on a secret mission to resolve the trade disputes is questionable. More questionable is the Jedi Counsel, a religious organization, marching around the Senate with weapons. How is this acceptable? It's patently not. If you can open your mind to the idea that a religious belief itself can be pure, but that the organization surrounding that faith can be deeply flawed the story makes perfect sense. As a real world analogy take for example the golden rule of Christianity. "Do unto others what you want done unto you." Aside from high thinking philosophers like Shaw, this rule by itself is pretty difficult to question as morally right. As were Christ's teachings in general about love and forgiveness. But, as we all know, Christian Church's and organizations do not live up to this rule (I don't mean this as an attack on Christianity in the slightest. If you're a Christian you accept this because no one can live the life of Christ without sin).

    In this sense then, Jedi teachings are pure. That doesn't change. The Jedi Order, however, can be greatly flawed with dogmatic rules that are more about structure than about faith. Because of this, I think the PT perfectly illustrated how even the purest ideas can fail because people - even Jedi - are fallible. None of this should demean or lessen the teachings of the OT which were morally right and unquestionably good.

    Those are my thoughts anyway. Thanks for an interesting post.
     
  24. darklordoftech

    darklordoftech Force Ghost star 6

    Registered:
    Sep 30, 2012
    Adding to this, the prequel Jedi and Republic are mistakes that the OT heroes have learned from. The prequel Republic isn't what the Rebel Alliance is fighting to restore but rather it's the government that will become the Galactic Empire that destroys Alderaan. The Jedi Order isn't what Luke is modelling himself after but rather it's what Luke is making sure not to repeat the mistakes of.
     
    minnishe likes this.
  25. darklordoftech

    darklordoftech Force Ghost star 6

    Registered:
    Sep 30, 2012
    The Making of Star Wars says that McQuarrie intended the Sandpeople to be mutants who need the masks to breath because of their mutations. What would have caused them to mutate?
     
    Tosche_Station likes this.