Saga SW Saga In-Depth In-Depth Discussion Thread

http://therealcharleslippincott.blogspot.co.uk/2015/11/the-alan-dean-foster-interviews.html?m=1

 

Very nice find! I especially like the discussion about the history of the Empire (and also what Leia's title should be when she "becomes queen at the end" as Gary Kurtz puts it).

 

Something I've long suspected is confirmed: that the reference to multiple Emperors in the novelization is left over from rough draft. Also interesting to me is the implication that the other Dark Lords of the Sith died in their attempts to wipe out the Jedi.

 

You may also be aware of Tolkein's debt to Shakespeare on the point of a "Lord of the Rings ish" generalized battle of generalized warrior trees.
http://www.shmoop.com/two-towers/moving-forest-symbol.html

 

Here's another possible literary source for Princess Leia's first name:

Palace in smoky light,
Troy but a heap of smouldering boundary stones,
ANAXIFORMINGES! Aurunculeia!
Hear me. Cadmus of Golden Prows!

-- Ezra Pound, Canto IV (1924)

"Aurunculeia" (suggesting "golden Leia") is a name that alludes to ancient Roman poetry -- specifically Catullus' poem 61, which is an epithalamia, or a poem composed in honor of a bride's impending marriage:

Non tibi Aurunculeia periculum est, ne qua femina pulcrior clarum ab Oceano diem uiderit uenientem. ("For you, Aurunculeia, there is no danger that any woman more beautiful will ever see the light of day coming from Ocean.")



Or to put the question implied there in different terms.... "Mirror, mirror, on the wall, who's the fairest one of all?"


At least, that's how I remember Snow White putting it.

 

Wow!

All manner of interesting points - the multiple 'Dark Lords', a more overt acknowledgement of Nazi Germany being a primary inspiration for the Emperor's rise, Leia being part of Kennedy-type dynasty, even another direct quote from GL stating that Luke's father is dead.

Not to mention the birth of what became the Holiday Special...

 

McQuarrie worked at NASA, and binary solar systems do exist in real life, so I wonder if the binary sunset was a McQuarrie idea.

 

Darth_Nub, ATMachine, darklordoftech

The idea of multiple dark lords of the Sith being killed in their attempts to wipe out the Jedi - fascinating.

Well, Annikin was indeed Luke's assumed and 'legitimate' father - being the man to whom Luke's mother was married, after all - so yes, Annikin (whatever be his familial relation) was dead*.

 

It seems to me that the idea is as follows: A group of Jedi led by Vader turn to the dark side and pledge their loyalty to the Emperor. The Emperor decides to call them "Dark Lords of the Sith" and tasks them with wiping out the Jedi. The Jedi Purge ends with both the Jedi and Sith dead except for Obi-Wan and Vader.

 

Also noteworthy: as noted before, it seems GL's initially proposed backstory involved a succession of "Emperors" who led the Republic as democratic leaders (akin to the Roman imperators such as Cincinnatus). But according to the tape, another rationale for this choice of wording was that the finale of the OT would involve the coronation of "Empress Leia".

But by 1976, as this tape shows, GL compressed the backstory so the rise of the Empire happened much more quickly, under a single evil Chancellor, when Annikin and Ben Kenobi were Jedi Knights -- probably with an eye on making prequels one day. Which meant that the whole philological history of the term "Emperor" had to be dropped. Thus why GL and Alan Dean Foster get into a debate at one point over what Leia's title should be when she's crowned at the end of what would become ROTJ.

 

Putting aside the origins of these Dark Lords, what we've got here is clearly the origin of the PT-era Sith backstory which led to the Rule of Two - the Sith ended up collapsing from within, until only one (Darth Bane) was left. Big difference, of course, is that it happened mere decades earlier, not centuries or millennia - and Vader's the last Sith standing. Which has some interesting implications:

Draft 2 of SW makes reference to Vader's 'real' boss, i.e. not the Emperor - a 'Master of the Sith', named Prince Espaa Valorum. There's a very loose reference to such a figure in Draft 3 as well, when Ben says to Vader that he "expected his master". I've long had the theory that this person was still lurking in the shadows at the time of SW/ANH, perhaps to be revealed in a later episode as having pulled the strings all along (we might yet see this, now that such a concept has been resurrected in TFA with Snoke and the Knights of Ren). He may have figured in GL's ideas 1978/1979 ideas for Eps VII-IX, or the 1977/1978 12-episode plan.
However, the above quotes indicate that the Big Bad, Master of Evil at the time of SW/ANH was intended to be none other than Vader himself. It's a sort of transitional period between the earlier drafts, when Vader served a Sith Master (with the Emperor being merely a puppet), and ESB, when this supervillain was merged with the Emperor.
Also, from looking at the Third Draft (in which other, unnamed Sith Lords are present), it's implied that while Vader once served a Sith/Bogan master, he was #1 now:

That last line is a bit of a garbled version of the final "When I left you, I was but the learner, now I am the master", which is more about Ben & Vader's relationship, but Ben's line clearly points to someone else altogether, and Vader's line seems to dismiss it as inconsequential.
Vader's line to Leia also appears to be referring to his own supreme status.
In which case, it looks as if as early as Draft 3, Darth Vader was meant to be the big villain of the story, King Sith, having either killed or succeeded his master - although he hadn't killed off all the other Sith Lords just yet.

 

I wonder if Vader and Tarkin were supposed to be conspiring together against the Emperor. Tarkin calls Vader "friend" and in the unrevised fourth draft, Tarkin says to Vader, "This operation will secure my place on the Emperor’s council. With the right maneuvering, I could be Emperor. The rebel base will soon be destroyed."

 

Could that be what the Knights of Ren turn out to be? Kylo Ren and some other Jedi turn to the dark side, pledge their allegiance to Snoke; Kylo becomes Master of the Knights of Ren, and they wipe out the rest of the Jedi, save for Luke.

 

Here's something for the cryptographers among you to chew on... a mystery wrapped in an Enigma.

 

In which case, what point were the Sith? What were these Knights of Ren - - and this terrifying figure called Snoke up to while Palpatine and Vader ran the entire galaxy? TFA is set 30 years after ROTJ - seems like a pretty short timeframe for a dangerous Dark Side cult to get everything together to basically become a real threat and take over - while the Sith spent 1000 years biding their time.
OK, maybe they were there all along, waiting for Palps to fail and ready to just fill the void once all the grunt work had been done - but it sort of reduces the supervillains of two entire trilogies to utter chumps.

The overall impression is that the writers of this new trilogy have almost chosen to ignore the ROTJ & PT continuity and continue the Saga from ESB instead, picking up on old ideas that were rendered redundant by plot points like the Rule of Two and so on. The Knights of Ren and this 'Supreme Master' seem to be directly based upon the early concept of the Sith, right down to their appearance, and the idea that there would be gangs of them:

 

I wonder which draft was the first to be influenced by the hero's journey. I suspect it's the thrid draft, the first to make Vader Obi-Wan's apprentice and the killer of Luke's father.

 

I wouldn't really see it that way. The Dark Side is opportunistic in the first place. Any person who follows the Dark Side is already looking for the opportune moment. That's the nature of the Dark Side. It hides when it's weak, and is flamboyant when it's strong. Snoke probably knows that Palpatine, as a Sith, is already a far more powerful Force user. It would be wise of him to hide while Palpatine is strong,and to come out of the shadows when the Empire is weakest. That's how Darksiders play the game.

 

The scene in the novelization where Vader contemplates his "grandest plans" gave me the impression that Vader is using the Empire to get the Jedi and Rebels out of the way and once that's finished Vader plans to replace the Empire with a Sith theocracy. However, that interpretation could be influenced by all the movies that have been released in the years since.

 

That's a very good way of putting it - and I suppose it's what the Sith did in regards to the Republic. I'm still curious about what sort of background this new cult has - did they spring up during the Imperial era (a type of 'Sith Church', perhaps - Max Von Sydow's character was apparently a sort of Force-worshipper, although not an actual Force-adept or Jedi), during the post-ROTJ fallout, or have they been around for centuries?
Was Snoke actually something akin to Palpatine's superior, much as the Sith ghosts on Korriban were in the old Dark Empire/Tales of the Jedi EU stories?

As I mentioned earlier, I think this new Dark Side cult is almost a reboot - an opportunity to revisit old ideas that perhaps the writers (including, of course, Lawrence Kasdan) believed were superior to how the Sith eventually turned out in the PT.
Unfortunately, it's hard to present a new threat without undermining the previous ones, raising difficult questions, or coming across as a bit desperate - exhibit #1 being Starkiller Base, a planet-sized superweapon that can destroy multiple planets at once across hyperspace. The second Death Star in ROTJ has often been criticised as a lazy idea, but come on.
It'll be interesting to see if these Knights of Ren and their master turn out to be some sort of 'Sith-lite', or if there's more to them. One of the reasons JRR Tolkien actually abandoned his sequel to LOTR (The New Shadow) was that he realised that with Morgoth and Sauron gone, any new villains would just be dull in comparison.

 

I have been wondering if Snoke is the Morgoth to Palpatine's Sauron. I recall reading that the Elves expected Morgoth to return one day.

 

If Snoke is the equivalent to Morgoth, then wouldn't that make him Plagueis? Sauron (lieutenant to Morgoth); Sidious (apprentice to Plagueis), unless there's someone else that's been pulling the strings all along.

 

That's what I had mind. I think Snoke is at least 1000 years old.

 

Not sure where to post this, figured this thread is as good as any. One observations that I always make when watching Revenge of the Sith that always stands out to me is that, just as the duel on Mustafar is about to begin, Obi-Wan draws his lightsaber before Vader does. That always stands out to me as especially poignant to me. It is not the Jedi way, and it mirrors Obi-Wan's hypocritical "Only a Sith deals in absolutes" statement. In short, the whole thing is just a small, scaled down look at the downfall of the entire Jedi Order in the Prequels. The Jedi of the Prequel era were not what they should have been. Despite their absolute best intentions, they were in many ways blind and corrupt. Obi-Wan was a good man with great intentions, he loved Anakin and he wanted only the best for Luke, but like everyone else, he wasn't a perfect person. And I think, by Revenge of the Sith, when all of these horrors begin to transpire, he realizes that and, in the time leading up to the Original Trilogy, he does what he can to remedy that, but he still has some of the broken tendencies of the old Jedi Order engrained in him (his insistence that Vader must be destroyed by Luke, primarily).

Obi-Wan is one of my favorite characters in all of Star Wars. I love the way that both Ewan McGregor and Alec Guinness played him. He's contradictory in ways that make him both compassionate but distant, ever serious but always speaking with a dry wit. He's a very rounded, very real character among all of the larger-than-life antics of Star Wars. And in passing the torch down to Luke, I believe that he knows full well that he is passing the title of Jedi down to someone who can fix the mistakes of his generation, someone even more uncompromisingly compassionate than he is, someone more evocative of his master Qui-Gon Jinn in many ways.

 

If Snoke is the equivalent to Melkor/Morgoth, then he is the one who's been pulling the strings, and the Sith cult is merely a device. Plagueis, Palpatine, Vader - they're the Sauron figures who have just been towing the line while the true Dark Lord waits for his time to rise again.

TBH, I don't think this is what's in store for the SW Saga. Melkor was, for all intents and purposes, a god. Sauron was a demigod in service to him - the likes of Sith Lords Palpatine and Plagueis couldn't be considered to be anything beyond that. Snoke might yet be revealed to be a higher Dark Sider, but I'm more inclined to expect a reveal that's closer to the Wizard of Oz.

 

By way of explanation I should note that this matrix is actually rather interesting, given its apparent subject: clothing as plot. Or rather, costume design as foreshadowing. As Doc Brown likes to say, the future isn't written.