Saga SW Saga In-Depth In-Depth Discussion Thread

Discussion in 'Star Wars Saga In-Depth' started by only one kenobi, Dec 23, 2013.

  1. Nibelung Jedi Padawan

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    Apr 18, 2017
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    Speaking of the ST as planned during ESB, the idea for ROTJ at that time most likely dealt with a Rebel raid on the Imperial base where clones were grown for the Empire's stormtrooper armies.

    From everything I can tell, of the three lead characters, only Luke made it out of this film alive: leading into the Sequel Trilogy immediately afterward where he meets his long-lost sister and falls in love with her.

    Han would undoubtedly sacrifice himself to destroy the clone facility, while Leia would probably be disintegrated by Boba Fett: an ironic echo of the fate of Alderaan. Luke would kill Vader, and the Imperial armies would lose their source of clones, but the price would be incredibly high.

    As for the clone planet itself, it's most likely a rain-soaked water planet: the original of Kamino in AOTC, as the Imperial palace on a lava world was the original of Mustfar. A fitting place for a clone laboratory, and also for the demise of Darth Vader, a symbolic Death figure. As the Orange Catholic Bible in Dune says, "From water does all life begin."
    Last edited by Nibelung, Sep 13, 2017
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  2. Martoto77 Jedi Master

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    In the mid nineties, before any further Star Wars films were planned I Imagined that a next movie (without any hope of there ever being one) would feature Luke taking with Anakin's ghost. He tells Luke that together they have defeated the Emperor, but others have been waiting to take his place just as Vader had planned to do. It would pick up right after the Endor celebration scene.

    I also imagined that Anakin would offer his first hand knowledge of the darkside to Luke in order for him to defeat it without turning completely and that this might cause tensions between the Jedi, living and dead. It would resolve by one or all of the force ghosts sacrificing themselves in order for Luke not to be consumed by the dark side. I always felt that becoming a ghost was a bit of a cheat and that it needed to pay off in some way other than to just hang around until it was necessary for some exposition. (The PT didn't change that opinion)
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  3. Nibelung Jedi Padawan

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    It may be a cheat, but it is realistic. I speak from experience on that score. (Though real ghosts usually manifest audio-only rather than visually, like Qui-Gon in ROTS or Obi-Wan at the end of SW 1977.)
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  4. Nibelung Jedi Padawan

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    As for ideas for a "trilogy of trilogies" during the time of the OT: one idea for both the Prequel Trilogy and the Sequel Trilogy likely was a civil war that tore the Republic apart, akin to the Separatist civil war in the PT as we know it.

    A civil war in a proto-PT would probably have the Emperor secretly running both sides, like in the PT we know. For a Sequel Trilogy civil war plotline, one of the leading politicians would probably be a secret clone of the Emperor, like in the Dark Empire comics.

    In a PT storyline the war starts over the outlawing of slavery, or an analogue thereof, like the US Civil War. Anakin has a personal stake in fighting in the war, being an ex-slave himself. In an ST storyline the war starts over an obscure dispute about taxes, when an outlying system (maybe a planet of clone refugees?) starts withholding revenues in protest of what it sees as an immoral Republic policy (maybe subsidies to planets that employ clone slave labor?).

    An alternative idea for the PT would be a war against a fanatical empire ruled by a beautiful but deadly god-emperor: a caste society with ferocious warriors devoted to their "divine" ruler, whose first instinct on encountering the Republic is to conquer it. Think of the Kilrathi in Wing Commander, or the Dominion in Star Trek Deep Space Nine. The historical analogy would be imperial Japan in World War II. However, the twist would be that the "god emperor" is faking his divinity, like Kynon the false prophet in Leigh Brackett's The Secret of Sinharat.

    It might be interesting in this case to have Anakin's wife be a refugee from this Empire; maybe a former royal guard to the God Emperor (possibly an all-female brigade based on Leto II's Fish Speakers in God Emperor of Dune).

    As for the ST, an alternative would be a war against an ancient Empire of non-Forceful beings, akin to the Yuuzhan Vong. This Empire would have ruled most of the galaxy long ago thanks to a superweapon: however, when this weapon was lost, the Empire's holdings would have been reduced to a much smaller core around its home planet. The twist in this case would be that the aliens' lack of Force sensitivity was caused by a deliberate plague engineered eons ago, by the human slaves of the ancient Empire. This is basically what happened to the Rakata in Knights of the Old Republic. It's also the core of the story of the Chodak Empire in the 1990s adventure game Star Trek: The Next Generation: A Final Unity.
    Last edited by Nibelung, Sep 14, 2017
  5. Nibelung Jedi Padawan

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    An alternative: it's Vader who kills Leia, and in the resulting duel, Luke is about to kill Vader -- but Boba Fett is in a high place, ready to assassinate Luke from afar. Fett prepares to take Luke out, but is killed by one of the heroes, possibly Chewbacca (a combination of The Force Unleashed 2's tie-in comics and the ending of Star Trek VI).

    Luke doesn't kill Vader, but he also won't save him from harm. So Luke has no qualms about letting a giant piece of metal damaged during their fight fall on Vader, causing him, and the platform beneath his feet, to sink into the ocean where Vader drowns. It sounds like Batman Begins, but it's actually based on Isaac Asimov's robot stories ("a robot cannot harm a human being, or through inaction allow a human being to come to harm"). This harks back to the original idea of the Clone Wars as a riff on Dune's Butlerian Jihad, only with clones in place of Frank Herbert's robots.

    In the other scenario, where Fett is the one who kills Leia, Luke throws his lightsaber at Fett and decapitates him, much like the dying Sigurd in Norse mythology felling the treacherous Guttorm by throwing his sword at his back and cutting him in two. (Wagner's Ring Cycle follows the German variant of Siegfried's death rather than the Norse, though in many other ways it adheres more closely to the Scandinavian version of the story.)
    Last edited by Nibelung, Sep 14, 2017
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  6. Nibelung Jedi Padawan

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    This will likely be my final post for a while.


    Re the Seven Dark Jedi: there are actually two likely scenarios.

    Either Nellith Skywalker is one of them (having been recruited at a young age when her Jedi Master died), or Nellith was adopted by a band of space pirates instead, and her place as a Dark Jedi is taken by a young man similar to Luke. In either scenario, one of the others in the seven Dark Jedi is a woman.

    If Nellith is a Sith, at the end of the first film in the ST, Luke would face off against the other female Sith Lord. If Nellith is a space pirate, he would fight the young male Jedi instead. In either case, Luke defeats the Dark Jedi in battle, but spares his/her life.

    In the former case, in the next film, Luke faces the female Sith Lord in a rematch and kills her. She ran away from her masters after being defeated by Luke, but hopes to redeem her cowardice by bringing them Luke's head. (Basically Tavion in Jedi Outcast and Jedi Academy.)

    In the latter case, in the next film, Luke is nearly killed by the female Sith Lord, but the male Jedi sacrifices his life to ensure that Luke has a fair chance to survive. (Basically the whole thing with Sariss and Yun in Jedi Knight.)

    But in both cases, at the end of the first film, Nellith is captured by the Sith Lords and taken away Luke knows not where. In the Sith Nellith scenario, she's seen as a traitor to the cause, and imprisoned in a secret Imperial prison beneath Coruscant, a Star Destroyer immured in the streets of the city (like the ship symbolism of the giant prow of Minas Tirith in Lord of the Rings). In the Pirate Nellith Scenario, her mind is scrambled to suppress her memories, and she's sold as a slave girl to a crime lord. In both scenarios, Luke learns this in the next film and rescues her.

    And in both cases, it's probably the second film that sees Luke and Nellith defeat the titular Emperor. The third film, last of the Sequel Trilogy, skips ahead 20 years and deals with the consequences of their incest, in the form of their evil Mordred-esque son vs. their good female-Siegfried-esque daughter (a plot structure inspired by Doc Smith's Children of the Lens). It also deals with the evil alien intelligence that has been manipulating events in the galaxy, one hinted at in previous films.


    Another film would take place between films 1 and 2 of the Sequel Trilogy, but this would actually be the third film in a trilogy dealing with the Valley of the Jedi. This would bring the SW saga up to 12 films.

    The first film would deal with the battle that resulted in creation of the Valley; the second would deal with Ben Kenobi's search for the Valley in the early days of the Empire, and his leaving his notes behind for a future Jedi. Ben would become convinced that, consumed with anger at Vader and the Emperor as he is, he isn't the right one to find it, because he might use the Valley's power for his own ends.

    The third film would see Luke defeat the Empire's effort to find and harness the Valley. It would also see Luke fighting against a Dark Jedi gravely injured by Ben Kenobi in the second film (either Ben cut his legs off, like Maw in Jedi Knight or Darth Maul, or Ben killed him and the Dark Jedi was brought back as a biomechanical zombie).


    The first film in the Sequel Trilogy, where Luke meets Nellith, would also deal with the Empire searching for an ancient superweapon, in order to make up for the loss of its cloning facility in the third film of the OT. This could be either a remote-controlled battle fleet, as in the Thrawn Trilogy, or a small but deadly superweapon from an ancient conflict, like the Sun Crusher (a One Ring in starship form).

    The second film in the ST, like the first film and the Valley of the Jedi trilogy, would also be concerned with a weapon of great power from Wars of Old: namely, the Death Star. This is the film where the Rebel Alliance would destroy two Death Stars in orbit over the Imperial capital.

    Thus, the four trilogies in the SW Saga: the Clone Wars, the Star Wars, the Valley of the Jedi, and the Wars of Old.
    Last edited by Nibelung, Sep 14, 2017
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  7. darklordoftech Force Ghost

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    Sep 30, 2012
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    Might the ANH novelization's information about Palpatine have been inspired by Ho Chi Minh? Ho Chi Minh often claimed that Võ Nguyên Giáp and the Vietcong acted without his approval.
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  8. Tosche_Station Jedi Knight

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    Feb 9, 2015
    star 2
    In the version of the script which became the first film, did Lucas intend for Vader-who-killed-Luke's-father to have had a Sith Master (who wasn't necessarily the same person as The Emperor)?
  9. Pacified_llama Jedi Padawan

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    Sep 15, 2017
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    If we are to by the original Star Wars novelization, the Emperor was nothing more than a figurehead for the Empire who was controlled by his military adjutants such as Tarkin etc.
    He is portrayed as somewhat weak in that novel, though rather indirectly so.

    A New Hope does work with this idea somewhat, as it demonstrates the removal of any centralised legislative assembly (the Senate) in favour of devolution of power in the hands of military men, the Grand Moffs, the region governors.

    But anyone with further insight - this is all a little woolly.
  10. Tosche_Station Jedi Knight

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    Feb 9, 2015
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    I am under the impression that this was the case in order for Star Wars to work as a stand-alone film/story. In several of the drafts previous to the final version - in the second and third, to be precise - Vader did have a Sith Master, though in those versions he wasn't the direct killer of Father Skywalker (the third draft), and in one draft (the second) the father character was still alive in the story and lives to the end - but instead Vader is killed in the Death Star battle.
  11. MeBeJedi Jedi Grand Master

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    May 30, 2002
    star 6
    The novelization hints that there are many Sith Lords, and that they all wear similar armor:

    "Two meters tall. Bipedal. Flowing black robes trailing from the figure and a
    face forever masked by a functional if bizarre black metal breath screen –a Dark Lord
    of the Sith was an awesome, threatening shape as it strode through the corridors of the rebel ship.
    Fear followed the footsteps of all the Dark Lords. The cloud of evil which
    clung tight about this particular one was intense enough to cause hardened Imperial
    troops to back away, menacing enough to set them muttering nervously among
    themselves. Once-resolute rebel crewmembers ceased resisting, broke and ran in
    panic at the sight of the black armor –armor which, though black as it was, was not
    nearly as dark as the thoughts drifting through the mind within."
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  12. Lt. Hija Jedi Master

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    Dec 8, 2015
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    @Pacified_llama wrote

    If we are to by the original Star Wars novelization, the Emperor was nothing more than a figurehead for the Empire who was controlled by his military adjutants such as Tarkin etc.
    He is portrayed as somewhat weak in that novel, though rather indirectly so.

    A New Hope does work with this idea somewhat, as it demonstrates the removal of any centralised legislative assembly (the Senate) in favour of devolution of power in the hands of military men, the Grand Moffs, the region governors.

    Correct, this was also the genuine premise of ANH, i.e. the official press release materials described Tarkin as a man with ambitions to become Emperor himself.

    Interestingly, the ANH radio drama (premiere in March 1981, one year after the release of ESB) still had Tarkin and Motti conspire to somehow establish Tarkin as the new Emperor.
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  13. Martoto77 Jedi Master

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    Aug 6, 2016
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    Doesn't the radio drama also include the aspect of the Empire being a society that gradually took over the Republic by encouraging the traditional aristocrats from various systems to support the Imperials.
  14. Pacified_llama Jedi Padawan

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    Sep 15, 2017
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    The ANH Radio Drama has a lot of fascinating plot ideas in it - I find the most amusing comparison is between the Radio Drama's version of "How they got the Death Star Plans" and Rogue One.

    Tarkin is portrayed as exceedingly narrow-minded, almost corrupt, in the radio drama - I never liked this, I think he was portrayed on screen as more of an ideologue - with the Tarkin Doctrine, and a genuine belief that ruling through fear and destruction was utilitarian.

    Remember the fact that ANH was intended as a stand-alone, in the worst case scenario that it bombed commercially and critically. So the "Emperor" aspect was played down - they used the Death Star as the iconic metaphor of the Empire. In others words: kill Death Star = kill Empire.
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  15. darklordoftech Force Ghost

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    Sep 30, 2012
    star 6
    The intention was that Vader had a Sith Master when he first turned to the dark side, but currently doesn't have a Sith Master. This is why Vader says, "When I left you, I was but the learner, now I am the master." In the third draft, Vader says this in response to Obi-Wan incorrectly thinking that Vader still has a Sith master.

    - Second Draft: Vader has a Sith Master. The Sith are a group of bounty hunters who are strong in the dark side, having been trained by a fallen Jedi named "Darklighter".

    - Third draft: Vader once had a Sith Master, but now is the Master of the Sith. The Sith are Jedi who pledged themselves to the Emperor when the Jedi Purge began.

    - Fourth Draft, Revised Fourth Draft, and the finished ANH film: Vader once had a Sith Master, but now Vader is the only living Sith.

    - ESB and ROTJ: Vader once had a Sith Master and all the Sith, including the Master of the Sith, were apprentices of Palpatine, but now Vader is the only living Sith. "Sith" still only refers to the Jedi who pledged themselves to Palpatine when the Jedi Purge began and not to Palpatine himself.
    Last edited by darklordoftech, Oct 4, 2017
  16. darklordoftech Force Ghost

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    I wonder if Palpatine ever said, "I study Sith history to make sure that the Sith never return."
  17. Martoto77 Jedi Master

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    Aug 6, 2016
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    At which Seath of learning can one study Sith history? :D
  18. TheReal_Rebel Jedi Knight

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    Sep 17, 2015
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    According to the old Book of the Sith, Sheev thought he was the pinnacle of the Sith and their culmination.

    He expected to live long enough to learn how to become a God or the Force itself. But being human, more likely would have been killed by another Sith in his dotage. If he hadn’t been killed by Vader.

    Snoke has a better chance not being human.
    Last edited by TheReal_Rebel, Oct 18, 2017
  19. darklordoftech Force Ghost

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    Sep 30, 2012
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    I was actually talking about what Palpatine would say if the Jedi asked him how he knows so much about the Sith.
  20. The_Phantom_Calamari Jedi Grand Master

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    Nov 10, 2011
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    Hm. I think the context is still that Vader is simply asserting his masterhood over Obi-Wan:

    BEN
    The Force of the Bogan has grown strong with you. I expected your master…

    VADER
    You were once my master, but I am the master now… the Crystal will be of little use to you…

    I would say that, if anything, the dialogue implies that Vader still has a master.
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  21. MeBeJedi Jedi Grand Master

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    May 30, 2002
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    LOL!

    I've never seen anything about a "water planet" in the Annotated Screenplays. It was originally Had Abbadon

    Had Abbadon was actually a proposed name for the Imperial capital—later identified as Coruscant—which appeared in early drafts of Return of the Jedi. It was meant to be a city-planet orbited by two Death Stars under construction, and the Green Moon, later renamed Jus-Endor (which would later become Endor). Its lowest levels were meant to be home to Emperor Palpatine's throne room, surrounded by a lake of lava, around which Luke Skywalker would duel Darth Vader. These concepts were ultimately separated into the Emperor's throne room aboard Death Star II and Mustafar. - http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Had_Abbadon


    In the end it didn't seem necessary to show the home planet of the Empire. It seemed more important that we focus on the major target of what we were going after in the movie. So to show Vader and the Emperor in an area that didn't relate to the story didn't seem necessary. Of course, I had a million different names for the home planet of the Empire, but Coruscant came out of publishing. - Lucas: The Annotated Screenplays

    There was also this scenario:

    "Another dark idea that Lawrence Kasdan had for the ending was to have Luke put on Vader's mask and say that he's now going to destroy the Rebel fleet and rule the universe. It was discussed that in his confrontation with the Emperor, Luke could pretend that he'd been turned to the Dark side. The Emperor would then take him to the controls and tell him to destroy the Rebel fleet; instead, Luke would aim at the Emperor's home planet of Had Abbadon and destroy it." - Annotated Screenplays
  22. Lt. Hija Jedi Master

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    Dec 8, 2015
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    @MeBeJedi quoted

    "Another dark idea that Lawrence Kasdan had for the ending was to have Luke put on Vader's mask and say that he's now going to destroy the Rebel fleet and rule the universe. It was discussed that in his confrontation with the Emperor, Luke could pretend that he'd been turned to the Dark side. The Emperor would then take him to the controls and tell him to destroy the Rebel fleet; instead, Luke would aim at the Emperor's home planet of Had Abbadon and destroy it." - Annotated Screenplays

    :eek:

    I'd like to believe that Kasdan wasn't serious when he made that story proposal. Alliance 'poster boy' Luke Skywalker exacting revenge for the destruction of Alderaan by destroying another planet with innocent civilians. Totally out of Luke's character, I'm certain Lucas eliminated the idea the moment it was voiced.
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  23. The_Phantom_Calamari Jedi Grand Master

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    Kasdan has a history of putting forth some pretty weird--and really pretty fascist when you get right down to it--ideas about the direction Star Wars should go in which Lucas had to very patiently shoot down:

    Kasdan: Which we are never going to do […] I am telling you that the key is to stick Luke into the center of this in an effective way, so that in fulfilling his destiny he helps the rebellion to defeat the Empire. That is what we are not doing. There has to be some transfer of power from the Emperor to Luke. That would be very poetic in terms of your whole story. That would be the perfect thing if you had a moment when all these Imperial guys see Luke take over. That would be a real Olympian conclusion to this trilogy.

    Lucas: Explain that further.

    Kasdan: Luke usurps all the power of the Emperor in their final confrontation and is recognized as the ultimate power in the galaxy.

    Lucas: Luke can’t rule the universe, because if he’s destroyed the Emperor and, consequently, the Empire, then it’s a Republic again and the senate will come back. They will elect their own officials. He is a warrior. He is a Jedi Knight. He does not want to be mayor, he does not want to be president; he has sworn to be a police officer and that’s what he wants to do.

    And yet Kasdan is apparently the one who really understood what Star Wars was all about.
  24. Lt. Hija Jedi Master

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    Dec 8, 2015
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    @The_Phantom_Calamari quoted (and wrote)

    Kasdan: Luke usurps all the power of the Emperor in their final confrontation and is recognized as the ultimate power in the galaxy.
    Lucas: Luke can’t rule the universe, because if he’s destroyed the Emperor and, consequently, the Empire, then it’s a Republic again and the senate will come back. They will elect their own officials. He is a warrior. He is a Jedi Knight. He does not want to be mayor, he does not want to be president; he has sworn to be a police officer and that’s what he wants to do.


    And yet Kasdan is apparently the one who really understood what Star Wars was all about.

    :eek:

    It could look as if he ultimately got what he wanted, especially given the recent speculation about another interpretation of the Dagobah cave scene:

    http://www.theforce.net/story/front...lation_About_Luke_In_The_Last_Jedi_176213.asp
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  25. Martoto77 Jedi Master

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    Aug 6, 2016
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    The loose end tying exercise of ROTJ isn't necessarily what Star Wars is all about. It's what ending Star Wars was all about. Star Wars was to be finished without too much ambiguity. Not because ambiguity is not Star Wars but because it could not finish on those terms and Lucas Star Wars had to be finished for good.