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Saga SW Saga In-Depth In-Depth Discussion Thread

Discussion in 'Star Wars Saga In-Depth' started by only one kenobi, Dec 23, 2013.

  1. The_Phantom_Calamari

    The_Phantom_Calamari Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    Nov 10, 2011
    You missed the point of what's being said. Star Wars is all about letting go of your ego and trusting in the Force, in your friends, and in other people. What it isn't all about is the hero usurping the bad guy's position and becoming the ultimate power in the universe. The latter is nothing but a fascist power fantasy. It's Luke Skywalker putting on Darth Vader's mask. It's Luke Skywalker becoming the Death Star. It's perfectly emblematic of Kasdan's cynical mindset contrasted against Lucas's humanistic, life-affirming one.
     
  2. Martoto77

    Martoto77 Jedi Master star 5

    Registered:
    Aug 6, 2016

    No it's about telling stories. Evidently, there's nothing wrong or un Star Wars about telling a story where the hero usurps the bad guy's position and becomes the ultimate power in the universe or attempts to. It's just that ending the story on that note is not what Lucas had in mind. And ending Star Wars in 1983 was what Lucas had in mind above all else. Kasdan thought otherwise. That there could be a way to seed further stories.

    ROTJ is what it is because it was the end of Star Wars. Nothing to do with what isn't Star Wars and is just Kasdan.

    That underlined bit has the appearance of thought policing. Telling a story where the character struggles with dark aspects of human nature and not always winning is not an endorsement or exaltation of those aspects. Giving time to explore them in a piece of fiction is intended to provide a catharsis.

    Kasdan doesn't want the hero to turn bad to satisfy his own sympathies or uphold his sense of cynicism. It's because the greatest works of literature in human history already accommodated lots of this kind of ambiguity. They give the audience the opportunity and the credit to entertain two opposing thoughts in their mind at the same time and let that process entertain them.

    Kasdan has always praised the first Star Wars film to the hilt because it pulled off one of the hardest tricks which was provide a stratifying ending for everybody where good overcomes evil and nobody important really gets lost (even Obi Wan is safe in the force as a more powerful being than he was in the flesh, and for Luke's benefit too). He felt that, a) there was lots more mileage in Star Wars, b) it was going to be next to impossible to pull off the same trick as the first movie (which was designed and produced as the beginning and the end of Star Wars). And that included doubting that he personally was up to writing it as well. And if it didn't approximate the triumph of the first movie which it was trying to recreate, it could fail spectacularly. It was all about looking out for Star Wars. Not satisfying his own cynicism.

    Just take Malcolm (son of the murdered king Duncan) in Shakespeare's MacBeth. When the other lords convince him that he should return to Scotland and oppose the title character's treacherous power grab and how his goodness and fairness is know throughout the land, Malcolm has a strange interlude where he momentarily forewarns that, in spite of his goodness, don't expect anyone like him to not becoming an evil tyrant on the back of such overwhelming encouragement, good will and support. In other words, be careful what you wish for.
     
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  3. Lt. Hija

    Lt. Hija Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Dec 8, 2015
    I just can't help but wonder if it might have been Kasdan who made Kenobi insist in ROJ that Luke had to face and kill Vader.

    Perhaps Lucas was hesitant (that's not the Jedi way) but let Kasdan prevail because it let audiences anticipate an ending that turned out rather differently and as a positive surprise.
     
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  4. darklordoftech

    darklordoftech Force Ghost star 6

    Registered:
    Sep 30, 2012
    I think Kasdan was just saying something that people who aren't as into Star Wars as us tend to think: "Luke became the new Emperor and everyone lived happily ever after."
    I wonder what Kenobi says in the drafts that have Had Abbadon in them (Lucas wrote them without Kasdan).
     
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  5. Lt. Hija

    Lt. Hija Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Dec 8, 2015
    darklordoftech

    Thank you for the heads-up. Yes, in the original 1981 draft it is actually Yoda who suggests that Luke must kill his father (Kenobi is no longer available but has already slipped into the netherworld). [face_blush]
     
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  6. darklordoftech

    darklordoftech Force Ghost star 6

    Registered:
    Sep 30, 2012
    Some thoughts on the development of Obi-Wan, Yoda, and Palpatine:

    - Before GL decided to kill off Obi-Wan, Obi-Wan was going to tell Luke to use The Force over the radio. GL came up with Force Ghosting as a way to keep this dialogue in the film.

    - Before GL created Yoda, Palpatine was going to be a dark parallel to Obi-Wan, hence he, like Obi-Wan, is an old man in a cloak with a hood. Obi-Wan and Palpatine were going to switch between ghost and corporeal forms at will in their final battle against each other. Palpatine being introduced as a blue hologram that resembles a Force Ghost is a remnant of this idea.
     
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  7. Ancient Whills

    Ancient Whills Force Ghost star 5

    Registered:
    Jun 12, 2011
    About the evolution of Palpatine
    .
    Pablo Hidalgo‏ @pablohidalgo
    Because someone just asked. Evolution of the Emperor. Earliest story ideas had him already absent, assassinated by "Nixonian gangsters". 1/-
    [​IMG]

    Pablo Hidalgo‏ @pablohidalgo
    By the time Star Wars (1977) came together, "Emperor Palpatine" was a largely withdrawn, puppet leader of the regime. From the novel. 2/-
    [​IMG]

    Pablo Hidalgo‏ @pablohidalgo
    He did not become a Force-user until the development of The Empire Strikes Back, presumably to better sell the idea he was Vader's boss. 3/-
     
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  8. Lt. Hija

    Lt. Hija Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Dec 8, 2015
    From the January 1, 1976 script:

    TARKIN
    Enough of this, release him! These arguments are pointless. Lord Vader we still expect you to find the hidden rebel base before this station becomes operational. It is the Emperor’s will… you were sent here to enforce it.
    VADER
    As the Emperor wills it, so it shall be. You will have the location of the rebel fortress and I will have the stolen data destroyed.
    He raises his hand and crumples the metal cup before him without touching it.

    In his ANH novelization Alan Dean Foster suggested that Vader said "As the Emperor wills it" with sarcasm.
     
  9. darklordoftech

    darklordoftech Force Ghost star 6

    Registered:
    Sep 30, 2012
    It seems like Vader is an errand boy who's rank changes depending on what Palpatine assigns him to do.
     
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  10. darklordoftech

    darklordoftech Force Ghost star 6

    Registered:
    Sep 30, 2012
    As a tweet responding to Hidalgo explains, the Emperor who got assasinated is the character who we today know as Valorum. Palpatine was the leader of the "Nixonian gangsters". The EU later explained the ANH novelization by saying that Palpatine stayed in his palace to study the dark side, making it seem to the public that he was a puppet. The prequels hint at Palpatine pretending to be a puppet by having him "reluctantly" accept the emergency powers proposed by Mas Amedda.
     
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  11. darklordoftech

    darklordoftech Force Ghost star 6

    Registered:
    Sep 30, 2012
    "Vader stared at the motley array of stars displayed on the conference-room map while Tarkin and Admiral Motti conferred nearby. Interestingly, the first use of the most powerful destructive machine ever constructed had seemingly had no influence at all on that map, which in itself represented only a tiny fraction of this section of one modest-sized galaxy.

    It would take a microbreakdown of a portion of this map to reveal a slight reduction in spatial mass, caused by the disappearance of Alderaan. Alderaan, with its many cities, farms, factories, and towns - and traitors, Vader reminded himself.

    Despite his advances and intricate technological methods of annihilation, the actions of mankind remained unnoticeable to an uncaring, unimaginably vast universe. If Vader's grandest plans ever came to pass, all that would change.

    He was well aware that despite all their intelligence and drive, the vastness and wonder were lost on the two men who continued to chatter monkeylike behind him. Tarkin and Motti were talented and ambitious, but they saw things only on the scale of human pettiness. It was a pity, Vader thought, that they did not possess the scope to match their abilities.

    Still, neither man was a Dark Lord. As such, little more could be expected of them. These two were useful now. and dangerous, but someday they, like Alderaan, would have to be swept aside. For now he could not afford to ignore them. And while he would have preferred the company of equals, he had to admit reluctantly that at this point, he had no equals." - Vader's thoughts on Alderaan, the the Death Star, the Empire, and the Sith in the novelization
     
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  12. kalzeth

    kalzeth Jedi Knight star 2

    Registered:
    Aug 26, 2017
    Listening to From A Certain Point of View and it got me thinking. Why didn’t yoda take leia or both children and train them since birth at dagobah?


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
     
  13. Darth Downunder

    Darth Downunder Chosen One star 6

    Registered:
    Aug 5, 2001
    Bcs Lucas wrote a simple, fun space opera movie first & then had to create the story & backstory from that. ANH featured a boy next door hero who had to begin from nothing & learn from there.

    In-universe there isn't a particularly good reason. The Jedi were shown in the PT to be quite happy to take very young children & train them. Having them relinquish all personal attachment from that point. I suppose you could say that since the Empire & Sith had taken over & the Jedi almost wiped out it didn't seem fair to train just two young Jedi to be used as weapons in what was probably a hopeless cause. That's the best I've got.
     
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  14. darkspine10

    darkspine10 Force Ghost star 5

    Registered:
    Dec 7, 2014
    There's also the idea from ESB that if Luke or Leia get trained, Vader might start to sense their presence, and find them.
     
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  15. MatthewZ

    MatthewZ Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Sep 21, 2003
    That what me thinks as well.
     
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  16. Darth Downunder

    Darth Downunder Chosen One star 6

    Registered:
    Aug 5, 2001
    Where is that evident in TESB? I felt the opposite. If Luke had stayed with Yoda & continued training he would've been safe & sound there & Vader would never have found him. Fact is if Luke had been trained from a young age he would've been far better equipped when he eventually left to take on Vader. Which would've made it far safer for him to do so.
     
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  17. Ancient Whills

    Ancient Whills Force Ghost star 5

    Registered:
    Jun 12, 2011
    http://www.starwars.com/news/my-favorite-scene-i-am-your-father
     
  18. kalzeth

    kalzeth Jedi Knight star 2

    Registered:
    Aug 26, 2017
    That’s how I was thinking about it with leia.

    I could buy that maybe they were worried about training sending a signal to Vader. I would then think why can’t he find yoda or obi but maybe their lack of force usage or experience makes them hard to detect


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
     
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  19. Darth Downunder

    Darth Downunder Chosen One star 6

    Registered:
    Aug 5, 2001
    There's no indication that this is a situation like the Ringwraiths in TLOTR. Once someone is trained a signal is set off & Vader senses it & can track them down.
     
  20. kalzeth

    kalzeth Jedi Knight star 2

    Registered:
    Aug 26, 2017
    And yet he couldn’t find kanan, yoda or obi wan


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
     
  21. Alexrd

    Alexrd Force Ghost star 5

    Registered:
    Jul 7, 2009
    No, it's not exactly like that. But as Luke's connection to the Force and respective abilities increase, so does his presence in the Force, which creates a disturbance strong enough for both Sidious and Vader to sense it, as they state in TESB.

    Palpatine: There is a great disturbance in the Force.

    Vader: I have felt it.

    Palpatine: We have a new enemy. The young Rebel who destroyed the Death Star.

    Which is reiterated in ROTS where the ablility of the Sith to sense their presence is the reason for why they were separated.

    Yoda: Hidden, safe, the children must be kept.

    Obi-Wan: We must take them somewhere the Sith will not sense their presence.

    Yoda: Split up, they should be.
     
  22. Qui-Riv-Brid

    Qui-Riv-Brid Force Ghost star 5

    Registered:
    Apr 18, 2013
    Only in part as he didn't begin from nothing and never did. It was only later that Lucas decided that the younger hero Annikin then later Luke didn't know his father. First Annikin was trained by Kane then Luke was aware of The Starkiller as so on until it became that he didn't know of his heritage with the Jedi.


    Lucas as ever is careful not to tie his hands exactly but clearly presences can be masked by those with experience and if unknown that they even exist you are not going to be able to find them if nothing is happening.

    Once Luke started training then his presence in the Force grew. By the OT time it's not that there is a lot going on. It is not though some homing beacon either. The reality of storytelling of course is that it is what you want it to be when you need it. It's no different than things lining up so that a battle can happen. The Rebels don't evacuate before the Empire can show up and battle them. The Star Destroyers don't go right above the Rebel base and so on.

    The trick is to keep things vague enough that it covers the broad strokes without too strict detail.
     
  23. Bazinga'd

    Bazinga'd The Man / Also Known as Bazinga'd star 6 Staff Member Manager

    Registered:
    Nov 1, 2012

    Degobah does not seem to be a very good place to hold a jedi day care center, especially if you are hiding from the Empire.
     
  24. Martoto77

    Martoto77 Jedi Master star 5

    Registered:
    Aug 6, 2016
    ..In fact it's cold as hell.
    .....

    And all this science... [face_dunno]

     
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  25. darklordoftech

    darklordoftech Force Ghost star 6

    Registered:
    Sep 30, 2012
    The "every last Jedi/Sith must die" sentiment seen by both factions brings to mind the Bolsheviks' reason for killing all the Romanovs: the idea that if one survives, a restoration is possible.