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  1. In Memory of LAJ_FETT: Please share your remembrances and condolences HERE

Saga SW Saga In-Depth In-Depth Discussion Thread

Discussion in 'Star Wars Saga In-Depth' started by only one kenobi, Dec 23, 2013.

  1. Ezekial

    Ezekial Jedi Master star 3

    Registered:
    May 24, 2002
    Speaking of the Matrix...

    I know alot of people hated the sequels, but I kind of liked them...well, at least the 2nd...because the big idea was that there had to be order in one way or another, and that rebellions had happened in the past and the rebellions were assimilated into the whole.

    Which is kind of like how in life, like, an artist often goes off on his own, doesn't quite fit in, but then he comes back with his insights and experiences and the community as a whole is enriched for the perspective.

    So actually, the Matrix did a damn good job with the "big idea" of it all.

    Unlike the Star Wars prequels, which now that I think about it, have like a Kim Jung Il understanding of democracy.
     
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  2. Jarren_Lee-Saber

    Jarren_Lee-Saber Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    Apr 16, 2008
    Ah! Finally something we agree on! The Matrix sequels did indeed take a "small universe" story and grew it into a holy amazeballs huge idea! And I love them both. Especially Reloaded.

    Aaaaaaand lost again. Every single Star Wars film (except ROTJ) grew the universe by leaps & bounds from each previous one. And sorry, but that's ridiculous. The PT pretty much perfectly portrayed (AND oddly predicted) the current US 'democratic' system to the T. Lucas was brilliant with his grey PT politics.

    The immortal line "So this is how liberty dies...with thunderous applause." is pretty much how I feel every election - and never more so than in 2012!!
     
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  3. -Jedi Joe-

    -Jedi Joe- Jedi Master star 2

    Registered:
    May 6, 2013
    I actually loved the third Matrix. The battle of Zion was an amazing sequence of man vs. machine and Neo's sacrifice was wonderfully tragic. I wish they'd make another trilogy that takes place 50 or so years after Revolutions.

    And as for the politics of the PT, I totally agree on how similar it is to the current situation in the US. One of the reasons RotS is such a powerful film is that, living in the Bush/Obama era, Palpatine's manipulation into power, and his ability to captivate the electorate, seems eerily familiar to current events.
     
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  4. Ezekial

    Ezekial Jedi Master star 3

    Registered:
    May 24, 2002
    Except for--

    The part where Bush voluntarily stepped down as part of the democratic tradition

    the part where Bush was responding to a real threat to the security of the USA

    the part where the successor actually continued many of the policies of Bush

    because the price of Empire is not something that is whimsical, and up to someone's discretion.
     
  5. DRush76

    DRush76 Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Jan 25, 2008

    Actually, I believe that it does seem that way in the PT. I keep thinking of those scenes from TPM in which Palpatine expresses his lack of confidence in Chancellor Valorum to Padme:

    And here is another moment:


    I understand that Palpatine's main goal in these scenes was to convince Padme to bring about a vote of no confidence against Valorum, giving him a chance to assume the position. But watching the movie, I suspect that Palpatine harbored a true contempt toward the Republic's current political situation.



    His name is Obama. And when he leaves office, his successor will continue many of the same policies. This has been going on for many, many years.
     
  6. Ord-Mantell70

    Ord-Mantell70 Jedi Master star 3

    Registered:
    Mar 9, 2009
    I guess I see what you mean here...But how could you say it's not demonstrated in TPM ?

    The Senate and the Republic (manipulated by Palpatine and marred by greed and corruption...) is clearly powerless to stop a brutal invasion on a peaceful planet.

    Of course you can think it's not showed and conveyed the way you would have liked ("It isn't done very well"). But you can't fairly say it's not demonstrated or "felt".

    For Mr Lucas, threre was simply no need and no time to dig deeper into this issue I presume.

    What did you expect to see and feel onscreen ?

    I don't get it...

    I'm basically with you on that.

    The OT came first and set the general tone, style and feeling, and in a way unavoidably shaped the expectations for many. I too still see it exactly the same way I did before the PT came out...

    The big problem to me here is large disconnectedness in style and tone (storywise issues). Had this been softened and alleviated, some people would have had less trouble to really connect the 2 series of films.

    Anyway, Lucas thought about this but eventually chose to ignore. The basic goal of the PT was to tell the story on the roots and path to Evil with new technology (CGI), before turning around the way we look at the OT.

    Indeed, it's pretty mind-boggling to hear that he was also interested in doing this (change the way we see the OT) with such fundamental disconnectedness, and of course the Iconic status of the OT he didn't handled.

    Nevertheless, some fans do really feel the OT rather differently now. I just wonder how they succeeded in this...So in the end Lucas was right in a way.
     
  7. Big_Benn_Klingon

    Big_Benn_Klingon Jedi Master star 3

    Registered:
    Nov 14, 2013
    I don't think all people who only like OT are nostalgic, but some are! I say this because I WAS ONE OF THEM.

    When TPM was released I hated it for all the standard copy-and-paste PT-hate reasons (and a couple of my own). My gf at the time asked me why I hated it - to which my answer was "because I have so much of my childhood invested in it and it let me down." I didn't even go see AOTC in the theater because I was "done" with SW.. But one night I quietly rented AOTC and mid movie, I realized it was totally SW - the SW I always loved. It wasn't that AOTC was particularly good and converted me, it just dawned on me that the problem was my own personal baggage. I rented TPM the next day and realized that my problems with it were really no greater than those I had when I first saw ROTJ. By the time ROTS came out I had fully embraced the PT into my SW universe.. Man was that an enjoyable theater experience going to see ROTS - anticipation and enjoyment that fits in with all my childhood SW theater memories.

    Now of course that just me. Many of you will never like PT and that's totally fine. But I just want to express to you that if there is any chance of getting past you feelings of PT you totally should! It is so awesome to have 3 more moves and an entirely new aspect of the SW universe open to your imagination! I mean this totally sincerely
     
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  8. darth-sinister

    darth-sinister Manager Emeritus star 10 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

    Registered:
    Jun 28, 2001
    Well, I know it may make sense to you and not to me. That's what I mean. I wouldn't say that is dismissive.

    Well, no, but that goes towards the stand alone aspect in ANH. It didn't come up in the next two films, for whatever reason. I wager that he revisited it in the PT since there was twenty two years by which people had gotten used to "Star Wars", which would make something like that easier to understand. As well as the fact that he was dealing with a different era of the Jedi, which would allow for that exploration.

    Not really. The feel is still the same regardless and even then in the OT, much about Palpatine was unknown that his being revealed as a Sith Lord now doesn't really change from what Lucas intended before. The fact that you know the differences in the genesis of the story, is probably a good part of it is an issue for you. To the average person who didn't know that Palpatine started out as an independent entity and became a Sith Lord, there isn't much difference.

    Given that Lucas has drawn from all religions, even if they rely primarily on the Eastern beliefs, I'd wager it is somewhere in the middle. It would just all depends on what would happen down the line.

    Essentially.


    I think it is less knowledge and more emotional states. I think it is somewhere in the realm of a combination of too noise surrounding events that will come to pass. But I think it is more along the lines of some things are flexible and can be altered (Padme's fate), while some things are rigid and will never be altered (Palpatine's defeat).

    But the Architect was only dealing with facts and equations. He wasn't designed with an understanding of the human condition like the Oracle was, which is she was able to see that the only solution was a controlled chaos. One wherein people had the power of choice, choosing to stay or choosing to leave the Matrix. Cypher couldn't handle the real world, while Trinity could. That's why Neo gave the terms that he did, in order to gain access back into the Matrix to stop Smith. For the Sith, they don't like the idea of letting the people have their say in how they run their lives, which the Jedi believed in. They wanted to be in control of their fate, whereas the Jedi let the Force guide their actions.


    And thank you for that story. Not everyone was like this, but there were enough who were serious about it. Whether they had a change of heart like you did, or remain rigid, there was nostalgia issues for some. Not all.​
     
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  9. son_of_skywalker03

    son_of_skywalker03 Force Ghost star 4

    Registered:
    Dec 7, 2003
    Nobody has ever said nostalgia is the only reason for preferring the OT over the PT. What I, and many others, have stated is that nostalgia blinds many a PT hater from seeing that the OT was criticized in exactly the same way as the PT when they themselves were first coming out.
     
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  10. Lt.Cmdr.Thrawn

    Lt.Cmdr.Thrawn Manager Emeritus star 6 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

    Registered:
    Sep 23, 1999
    Perhaps it didn't come up because it just wasn't part of the story then? There certainly isn't anything in the films, nor in the background materials we've been shown (some of which seem like they're always in flux, but, for example, in the 1981 prequel story there is nothing like the metaphysical changes that were eventually written into the PT), nor in any of the stuff provided for the novels or other EU creations. I think that when it came time to write the prequels, Lucas probably went back to his notes and looked for things that spoke to him, which may not have interested him or might have been rejected when he originally came up with them. For whatever reason, he liked them now, and put them into the prequels.

    In any case, they weren't in the original films/ancillary materials, so viewers who formed their 'sense of Star Wars' based on those things might have noticed a difference once those elements were introduced.

    For sure. That doesn't mean my issue is not legitimate. This difference between the CT and PT really is a change, and I don't think there's necessarily anything wrong with preferring one version.

    Also, to perhaps explain the difference as I see it, an analogy:

    The United States was born of a revolution of a bunch of people, and many of the ideals and political structures, not to mention visual styles, were modeled on ancient cultures - Greece and Rome. You know that story.

    What if George Washington, Thomas Jefferson, etc, were members of a secret Roman cult that had been plotting the return of Rome since it had fallen, waiting to bring back its ideals, political structures, visual styles, maybe even the old gods?

    That's the difference.

    As you note, it's hard to say, but the term The Chosen One, and the notion that there is an ancient prophecy which foretells a person bringing balance back to the Force - and that this is never talked about as something that happens frequently, or even rarely, but appears to be quite a singular occurrence in the history of the galaxy - has given me the impression that the depiction aligns more with the Jesus angle. It could be a Buddha angle, but the portrayal as I have seen it doesn't convey that very clearly if so.

    If Lucas had retained/gone back to the earlier notion of multiple Chosen Ones (like Bunden "Buffy" Debannen, for example), or maybe if becoming a Chosen One was something that happened because of hard work at developing a deep connection to the Force ('meditating under the Bodhi tree,' if you will), this may have helped - if the idea was to give things a Buddha angle.

    Okay, well, it does alter the story enough to affect my understanding of it.

    (Some of the time.)

    The latter part of that is exactly the kind of thing I don't grok, as explicated in the post you quoted. The bolded part, though... that is/was my impression too, except that we see some of Anakin's visions in ROTS, and they really are visions. We could get into how perception works, how vision is actually not at all like a 'viewscreen' even if it subjectively feels like it is, etc. And that might help explain. However, given how the vision is depicted, I don't get the sense that that's what was intended. Compare Anakin's visions to the time travel sequence in Star Trek IV. To me, something along those lines would more closely approximate vague 'emotional states.' Of course, I wasn't making the movie; I'm just coming up with ideas for how concepts could be depicted - if that was the intended goal.
     
  11. Jarren_Lee-Saber

    Jarren_Lee-Saber Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    Apr 16, 2008
    ...only to be replaced by someone with nearly identical polices, so it was basically the same person. Nothing actually changed.

    Nope that didn't happen. There was no "real" threat. There was a non-threat that Bush fear-mongered into existence and the media blew out of proportion. Iraq, Afghanistan (as well as Iran and Syria) were even less a threat to the USA than the Separatists were to the republic.

    Emperor Palpatine continued many of Chancellor Palpatine's polices.

    The presidents' policies over last 14 years have very much felt like Star Wars' transition from Republic to Empire.
     
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  12. darth-sinister

    darth-sinister Manager Emeritus star 10 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

    Registered:
    Jun 28, 2001
    Some did and some didn't. How much of a deal breaker will vary.

    The knowledge that Palpatine was just a sorcerer up until 1996 is why you see it as a change. To someone who didn't know, they wouldn't see it as a change. They would just see it as world building. New material that they didn't know about, but not necessarily a change in itself.

    Well, it was mere speculation that it could happen again. It all would depend on similar conditions occurring again down the line.

    What was in "Star Trek IV" wasn't a vision, but more echoes in the time stream of what has occurred and what will occur. A representation of passing themselves to reach the point in 1986 where they come out of time warp and enter into orbit. In Anakin's case, as I've said, the Force is giving a warning of what he will do if he continues down this path, which was brought on by his actions fighting and killing Dooku like he did. His emotional state brought it on and only by changing, could he hope to avoid it. But he didn't take it that way and instead went in a different direction, resulting in the outcome that happened, but with differences along the way.

    The Separatists were only a threat because Palpatine organized them into being a threat. That's why Qui-gon said that the actions of the Federation made no sense, with the invasion. That wasn't their style. They're lacking backbone and bravery. Dooku served as Palpatine's representative and helped with the fear mongering and used Nute's petty and vindictive request to help build up the fear and used Obi-wan to further that with the revelation of an impending assault on the Republic. All of which resulted in Emergency Powers being granted and the changes to the constitution.
     
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  13. Lt.Cmdr.Thrawn

    Lt.Cmdr.Thrawn Manager Emeritus star 6 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

    Registered:
    Sep 23, 1999
    They might accept it as worldbuilding, but if they did some reading they'd find it was indeed a change. That doesn't mean that would make it less acceptable to them, or that they would automatically have to change their opinion of Star Wars as a whole, but it is a change. It's like Vader and Anakin being the same person. This too was a change at one point. I came to Star Wars after that was already part of the retconned story, so it initially was just something that was a feature of the narrative, as I understood it. After reading some of the notes, and Making Of books (and EU, though that's less relevant in this case) from the pre-ESB era, I learned that it was a change from a previous conception. I can still watch Empire and accept it. But I recognize at the same time that it's a change from what was there in 1977.

    For some people, the Vader=Anakin change was a problem, because they felt that it constricted the scale of the story a bit, and made it more of a soap opera, and they liked the more pulpy, open feel. I can see their point. For me it doesn't usually pose too much of a problem, but I can see it either way.

    Similarly, for some people (me), the changes to the metaphysics of the Force can be problematic, because it affects the way the cosmic powers in the story are or aren't personalized and do or do not have to 'care' what happens with the political struggles of the mortals. For other people (you), this is not a problem because they don't care about those aspects, or indeed like it when the scale is expanded to such a large extent.

    I agree. But the way it's depicted seems to indicate a singular event. Plus, that Lucas said on the conclusion of the PT that there wasn't any more story to the saga would seem to back that up, at least that that point in time.

    The details of the story surrounding the scenes are not what I was focusing on. What was in Star Trek IV was a cinematic depiction of a kind of vague, dreamlike experience. There are abstracted depictions of the characters, and echoes of their voices saying things that they will say in the future, but we don't know the context of those lines at the time. In contrast, Anakin's vision is a modified version of what it might actually look like if he were actually present in the room at the time and place he's remote-viewing. I was only trying to make a point about how one might show that Force visions were very vague and open to interpretation, while maintaining the notion that the future is the future and true clairvoyance will only be able to see what actually will happen, not what could happen but might not. Something like the Star Trek sequence would work well for that, in my opinion. You, or Lucas, might not have the same goals (trying to depict visions that are truly glimpses of the deterministic future, yet are open to interpretation). I'm only speaking for myself and my own tastes and imagination here.
     
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  14. only one kenobi

    only one kenobi Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    Nov 18, 2012
    Very well put. There is a difference between arguing that you don't mind the changes, or that you think the changes enhance the story (which is in line with the OP) and arguing that there was no change. The example you give of Darth Vader is a very good one. I thought, and still do think that is a change that is very jarring - to me. The original lines in ANH are so clumsily done in terms of that change that it being a change is itself part of the jarring. "A young Jedi named Darth Vader..." There never was a young Jedi named Darth Vader. That is an out and out lie in terms of the story that came later. For example 'Darth Vader...he was once a pupil of mine, once a Jedi Knight, but he was seduced by the darkside. He helped the Empire to hunt down and kill the Jedi. He took your father's life' - works much better because it never leaps into the realm of a lie.

    Anyway, that's for another discussion - though it is relevant in as much as it ought to be seen as a signal that there isn't a deeper argument that the OT is without fault; for example, the losees that Leia and Luke suffered with Alderaan and Tatooine are never really , never again mentioned in the movies.



    Another pointer tothe idea that Anakin's visions are not simply of some vague emotional state is when he describes his dreams to Padmé in AOTC and ROTS. He tells Padmé that he sees his mother as clearly as he sees her right now. He tells Padmé that she dies in childbirth. These are not just vague feelings these are solid, lifelike visions. Luke's language in TESB relates, far more, a sense of vagueness about his 'visions'.
     
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  15. darth-sinister

    darth-sinister Manager Emeritus star 10 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

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    Jun 28, 2001
    I never denied that was a change. And yes, I think I noted or implied about the reading. But to those who don't and there are more who don't than who do, they're not going to know it is a change. You and I are in the minority because we chose to look into the making of the films. Our reactions are different, but born from that.

    As I've said lately, what will happen with the upcoming trilogy will be its own story. There may be Sith in it, but if so, I'm betting it won't be about balance to the Force.


    Actually, I think it might be since the prophecy never says what will happen other than the end result in ROTJ. Which is how the Purge can happen and Luke's role in the grand scheme of things. In terms of Anakin, I think that applies more accurately since he doesn't know what kills Padme. Likewise, Luke doesn't see that Lando will turn on Vader and free Leia and Chewie.

    Well, we can open up a thread on that, if there isn't a preexisting one. I know there used to be one, but it's been a few years since I've dabbled in film discussion here. But I will say that while that was a change with regards to Vader and Anakin, you would have to think about it in a greater context; would you want to hear that your parent was a major ******* who helped carry out genocide and caused your mother's death? Especially if you're not ready for it.

    As to the latter, well, that's Lucas's point about moving on. Luke isn't bothered by the death of his aunt and uncle because he has let go of them. He is about Obi-wan and his father, which is why he is gung ho to fight Vader, who killed both of them. Leia has just refocused her feelings into the Alliance.
     
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  16. Darth_Pevra

    Darth_Pevra Chosen One star 6

    Registered:
    May 21, 2008
    Read the link in my sig.
     
  17. PiettsHat

    PiettsHat Force Ghost star 4

    Registered:
    Jan 1, 2011

    Yeaaaaah…You're about two weeks two late there.

    only one kenobi and I already talked about that interview -- including through PM. You may not have noticed, but a mod told us to lay off the politics.

    Unless of course you are referring to the novels linked in your sig. In which case, I must unfortunately inform you that I do not read German, but I would be happy to read those books if an English, French, or even Spanish translation is available.
     
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  18. Darth_Pevra

    Darth_Pevra Chosen One star 6

    Registered:
    May 21, 2008
    Okay, admittedly I didn't read through all the posts.
     
  19. DRush76

    DRush76 Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Jan 25, 2008
    I don't understand. Why would anyone who had originally seen the OT before 1996, assume that Palpatine was merely a sorcerer, when TESB and especially ROTJ made it clear that he was the leader of the Galaxy?



    Who said that the Republic was perfect? I never made that assumption.
     
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  20. Cushing's Admirer

    Cushing's Admirer Chosen One star 7

    Registered:
    Jun 8, 2006
    In principle I agree with only one kenobi's initial post in most respects. I have a very difficult time accepting that the PT and OT are all one Saga because the style, structure, and data differs quite a bit. Hardly anything matches up.I prefer the OT because it isn't bogged down in politics, uses a whole lot less CGI or like effects, uses more real props, has slightly more fun in it's tone, and Peter Cushing absolutely owns Darth Vader. :D Oh, yes, the X-Wing is the coolest starship ever as well. Likewise the Jedi are presented as noble in the OT and it is almost entirely absent in the PT. I personally think only Obi-Wan strove to be just and sound out of all the PT Jedi.
     
  21. darth-sinister

    darth-sinister Manager Emeritus star 10 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

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    Jun 28, 2001
    When Lucas made the choice to have Palpatine be more than just a political figure head, he opted to have him be a master of the Force, but one who was not part of the Jedi Order at any point in his life. Nor was he supposed to be a Dark Lord of the Sith. He was just someone who had spent his life learning the ways of the Force, on his own. This is why Palpatine is never identified as being a Sith Lord in the EU material prior to TPM. The "Dark Empire" comics and the first collected edition of the first mini-series specifically state that Palpatine had used the teachings of the Sith, but he had never joined their cause. His agenda to take control of the Republic, turn it into an Empire and destroy the Jedi Order was of his own volition. The goals were mutual to the ones that the Sith had, but he had control over one Sith Lord and that was Darth Vader. As Lucas was writing the PT, he opted to place Palpatine within the Sith Order and gave him the name Darth Sidious. In doing so, he altered the backstory and for some people, his motivations and goals are different as he is carrying on someone else's work and not his own.
     
  22. only one kenobi

    only one kenobi Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    Nov 18, 2012


    Within the OT films themselves there is no obvious motivation except to control. That is it. There is no backstory, Sith or not. he is simply a black hole at the heart of Empire, and a 'Satan/Mara' figure commanding Vader and goading Luke.

    But a 'sorcerer'? No...there was something powerful that surrounded his character, something powerful enough to make a difference when Luke's father threw him down (into the depths)...that released him from his shackles.
     
  23. Ezekial

    Ezekial Jedi Master star 3

    Registered:
    May 24, 2002
    I always imaged Palpatine should have been...

    A genuinely good man who makes a partnership with Lord Vader of Corellia to save the Republic, no matter the cost. Even after the Jedi and Obi-Wan abandoned the state, Palpatine and Vader soldiered on.

    And their desire for order eventually twisted them, so the heroes became monsters.

    Kinda like how in Diablo, the hero of the first game becomes the bad guy in the next game.

    I think it would have been especially impactful to see the depth of Palpatine's fall when in the final scene he unleashes lightning from his fingers.
     
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  24. darth-sinister

    darth-sinister Manager Emeritus star 10 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

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    Jun 28, 2001

    A sorcerer means that he was knowledgeable in the Force, but he wasn't allied with either faction. That is what he was as a Force user. The political aspirations came later when he began his plan of conquest. Vader bowed to him because he was stronger than the other Jedi, including Yoda. Lucas considered Yoda to be a guru of the Force who did train Jedi throughout his life, but he wasn't a part of the Jedi Order like Obi-wan and Anakin had been. His area of expertise was just the Force.
     
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  25. Doom Trooper

    Doom Trooper Jedi Master star 3

    Registered:
    Jan 1, 2014
    It's never been nostalgia for me. I still enjoy the PT and like what they brought to the table, but I prefer the OT simply because I like the story and characters better in it.