SWC Productions Present: The Official SW Community ROTS Spoiler Thread

I'm happy Lucas cut out that part of Padme and Anakin deciding the baby's name if a girl, would be Leia. That was a spoiler that came out a few months ago and everyone was worried about continuity issues.


I'm also happy he cut out the rebel alliance scenes. The Empire just began and they are already talking about rebellion? Wait 20 years, when things really get bad.

 

So while death is a sad thing, it's not a cause for despair.

It is for Anakin. You aren't that character. He grew up close to only one person. And he failed to save her life. Plus, he's a Jedi. He has access to more power than most people. And power is very seductive and corrupting. If he can can save Padme, he's gonna do it. That's part of the lesson of the story Binary,
to defy the natural order of things such as death and change, leads to bad consquences.

Characters in drama do not act the same as we would because they are in a different place and time than we are. If every character in fiction behaved in a completely normal way that a balanced, integrated healthy person does, all drama would be extremely boring. Drama is life with the boring parts cut out. It's their flaws, their mistakes, their Achilles Heels that makes them interesting and engaging, and it is from their frailties, bad decisions and flaws that fuels a good story. No one goes to the movies to watch a story about the Land of the Happy People. Yes, Anakin is screwed up, the Jedi have made errors, the galaxy is falling apart, and one day Luke and Leia will save the day. Makes for a great saga!

There is a saying that I use in my acting classes
that is instructive in this regard: "Bad news for the character is good news for the actor." The worse the situation the character is in, the more opportunity for great moments in the story and in the performance to explore the humanity and challenges of the character.

In Anakin/Vader Lucas has created one fascinating character that has turned out to be one of the greatest stories in movie history.

 

I wouldn't sell mine either, for all the reasons you cited. I really couldn't agree more. But I do sympathize with the predicament. I love my wife and kid to no end, and it would be extremely tough to just let it be -

 

I agree with John... up until that superlative-laden last statement, anyway!

While I intensely disliked and did not empathize with the Anakin of AOTC... in ROTS, I would never even consider making the choices he makes, but I understand why he makes them based on the character he is. He's flawed - seriously flawed - but unlike in AOTC, he sees that in himself and it frustrates him in a believable way.

It's not AOTC's "I will be the most powerful Jedi ever!!!" it's ROTS's "I'm not the Jedi I should be [because I want to be the most powerful Jedi ever]." That frustration is recognizable.

Oops, got on a bit of a tangent.

Until the ill-conceived Qui-Gon revelation scene at the end (which just should have been left out altogether), there was no "rejoining with your loved ones in Paradise" for the Jedi. Dead was dead, pretty much. So Anakin's coming from a very different place than you, not only in experience, but in belief.



It's not executed perfectly by any stretch. But his choices make sense for who he's presented to be in ROTS.

I choose to ignore TPM and AOTC now. Those films are just... erg. Frustrating and backwards and wrong. But ROTS in itself tells enough of a story of Anakin and who he is and what he wants and believes that his desires and willingness to make a Faustian deal are believable. Execution is off, IMO, but I bought it. If you bring TPM and AOTC into it, it starts to go wonky and bad. Leave 'em out, I say.

 

this film was excellent i really had no beefs with it.The novel is also excellent.


Mace is the Ultimate Jedi.He beat Sids straight up in a duel with out breaking a sweat.Vaapad is defintly real.He saw shatterpoints that yoda never saw regarding palpatine.He was the first to see the darkside of the force surround Palpatine.Mace Windu died like a noble jedi.His death, is a legends death.Yoda while being 900 yrs old...Mace was on par with him...if you read the novel and watch the movies closely,Mace windu is really in charge.There is no question that mace could have survied to the OT.He was that good.


And i tell no lie, I have the DVD already..i bought in for 5 dollars and its a cyrstal clear offical copy....its crazy.I love being from nyc.

 

I think ROTS improves every movie in the SAGA except CLONES. In fact, it makes it look that much worse. Why did I weed through a whole movie of him being a complete punk to finally get 30 minutes of a likable guy in REVENGE?

 

John, I've been disgusted by the whole romantic angle ever since AOTC. Basing Anakin's fall on his love interest is, to me, extremely uninteresting. That, plus the execution of it (in the morning Anakin is Kenobi's good little student telling him good-bye, while that very night he slaughters children ) I find unbelievable.

 

to me the prequels failed because i could never sympathize with anakin...i couldn't stand the guy. when i first heard about the prequels telling the story of darth vader i was thrilled with idea (being as vader has always been my favorite movie character) but i never saw ANY similarities between anakin and vader...NOTHING. vader has always been a larger than life character and to pull off the role of anakin you needed a larger than life actor...someone with a presance about them. that's not hayden. it's also partly george's fault for creating an unlikable character. also, i could never see darth vader going to the darkside because of love...i just hate that idea with a passion. power, justice, ends justify the means attitude...that's how i've always seen vader but i didn't see any of that in the prequels.

EDIT: also, i couldn't believe that anakin was still called "annie" in ROTS...Darth Annie

 

One thing I noticed today as I watched ESB: Anakin has a hangup with destiny. I noticed in ESB, and went back to the things that Palpatine tells him in ROTS. The dark side was his destiny. Now, I'm not saying that he couldn't choose the light, but in ROTS, ESB and ROTJ he speaks of destiny, a lot. Both his and Luke's.

It was when he said to Luke through the force, "Luke, it IS your destiny", that it occurred to me: This guy has this idea that he is supposed to bring justice and peace to the galaxy, no matter what it takes. And everything that has happened has been his destiny, as it is Luke's. His obsession with fufilling his prophecy even extends to Luke. It is a kind of wierd mutation of purpose, and Palpatine exploits that to no end, especially in ROTS. In the novelization, he even goes as far as to say that the Chosen One prophecy could mean the end of the Jedi. Of course the Jedi could offer no concrete answer on any purpose he had in the galaxy, either. When he desperately tries to get Luke to join him in ESB, I see ROTS Anakin, only much more seasoned and mature (read: patient, cold and deadly) offering Luke the same thing he offered to Padme in his new crazed dark side madness in ROTS. I was both excited and shocked at the Mustafar scene as I felt Darth Vader was definitely in the theater, and the guy I was with leaned over and said: "Damn, he's scarier without the suit. Now THIS is Vader."

Back to my point about destiny: Vader believes the ends justify the means and it is his destiny to rule the galaxy - even if he has to use Luke - after all in his mind. It isn't until ROTJ that we see that he is willing for destiny to take Luke away also, until the very end when it must occur to him that he has been manipulated beyond comprehension.

IMO, if anything this movie has gotten bashers and gushers and even casual fans to discuss the aspects of the saga, story, and even the movie more instead of drawing lines in the sand, and that can only be a good thing. I've come to really respect a lot more people in the last few days.

 

Hudnall
REVENGE OF THE SITH is remarkably internally consistent.

Exactly. And it also has some nice ties to the OT.

 

Maybe it was just me, but Anakin still seemed like a clod in ROTS.

Mace: "You are on this council, but we do not grant you the rank of master."

Anakin: "WHAT!?! ITS SO UNFAIR! WAH!"

or something to that effect...

 

But his anger at the JC's decision ties into his quest for greater power. He feels like he's as powerful as anyone on the council. Palpatine feeds him more of this too.

 

Anakin: "WHAT!?! ITS SO UNFAIR! WAH!"

He does have that one moment, absolutely. But it is pretty much the only one. And even in that moment, he at least now quickly realizes it and backs down. In AOTC he kept pushing and pushing his whiney agenda until you wanted to beat him senseless with a hose. This time I just wanted to give him a smack across the jaw and tell him to 'suck it up'.

 

Well I saw it again today, I kinda enjoyed it more, or at least I was more relaxed while watching it .
The things I liked the first time I still like, but the things I thought were crap are worse .

hud
This film flows, each action supports the next action and the next and the next. The characters progress, grow, change and submit to the story

Hud, ol' buddy , I couldn't disagree with you more .
I thought Anakin's turn (which is after all the main thing) was a load of old crap. Rubbish .
Firstly - when Anakin realises palpy is Sid it's just done so weakly, this should've been huge .
Then Anakin's decision to become his apprentice makes no sense, and I'm not buying the 'Love makes you blind' excuse . I mean he says I'll do what you want just tell me how to save padme. BUT SIDS CAN'T SAVE PADME, HE ADMITS IT . But jerkyboy still goes for it .
Then Sid tells him that all the Jedi are traitors and he must kill all of them including younglings and his best friend and Anakin goes : "yeah, okay" I mean - what the ... ?
I've heard some say that once anakin pledges his allegiance to Sids then his will is not his own, but that's clearly not the case since anakin is talking about dethroning Sids.
And I've also seen people say that Anakin is impressed and wants the power that Sid has got, but WHAT POWER? Sid is actually losing against Mace in a not-too manly way I might add .
And let's not even get into the little matter of Sid trying to kill his girlfriend etc.

it's just rubbish.

g

 

but WHAT POWER? Sid is actually losing against Mace in a not-too manly way I might add.

You missed the point of that scene. That was a bluff to play on Anakin's loyalty.

 

There were many great scenes, but one of my favorites had to be Palpy and Anakin at the Opera. The manipulative dialogue, Ian's performance, everything about that scene was superb, just letter perfect.

For people that say Lucas can only do action, man,
watch that scene. It's worthy of THE GODFATHER. And Ian McDiarmid is the best casting choice Lucas ever made, with the possible exception of Harrison Ford as Han.


Anakin: The Sith think only of themselves.
Palpatine: And the Jedi don't?


I love it!

 

You forgot that great, creepy music in that scene, JohnWesleyDowney.

 

Firstly - when Anakin realises palpy is Sid it's just done so weakly, this should've been huge .

He pulled a lightsaber on him in all of a second and held it at his throat. Then, Palpatine works his little magic.


Anakin isn't exactly in an easy position here. He's been away at war. He's caught in the middle of a power play between Palpatine, the Jedi and the Senate. The Jedi aren't respecting him (I think he had a right to be upset about not being Master), don't trust him (Mace vocally says so), and ask him to do something unethical. Palpatine plays all those strings against the Jedi, and predicts every little move that they make.

Padme and himself have been lieing for too long. And are obviously strained from keeping it undercover. Her pregnancy means that it is only a matter of time before they are found out - something that both Anakin and Padme worry about.

Under that kind of external pressure, he starts having visions of his pregnant wife dying in childbirth. He begins losing sleep, and the guy becomes noticeably more strained as things go. He knows that she is going to die. Remember how bad Luke's vision troubled him, and this is Anakin's wife he sees dying - how can he not be troubled? And Yoda doesn't exactly help. In his mind, he has no one to turn to...

except Palpatine.

The culmination is a state of confusion. A state we see very clearly in their bedroom. He is teetering on the brink of breakdown, and mind you, Anakin is an explosive impulsive personality anyway. He is a volcano.

Then in the heat of it, he snaps. He chooses. Whether Sidious can deliver or not isn't as important as him knowing the Jedi won't (Yoda conversation.) Sidious says that he will. And then strings him along.

Once he's committed, once Mace went out that window - he's got no choice. There was no going back to the Order. Palpatine had to survive and the only way to do that was for the Jedi to killed. There was no turning back for him at that moment.

And from there on out, the more he kills the more evil he becomes. The Dark Side consumes him.

Once you start down the dark path, forever, will it dominate your destiny. Consume you, it will, as it did Obi Wan's apprentice.

I love the scene after he's killed the Separatists, and he's watching the volcanic explosions. I almost get the sense the power of that planet, dark and fiery and explosive, is feeding the Dark Side within him. Visually poetic -


If you don't buy into a Faustian tragedy, the movie just won't work. Ever. I mean, that's the story. The characters do those things, test moral ambiguity and we tell the tale to our children on what NOT to do. That's the story, how you shouldn't behave. I think its OK to say, and I agree with you and Binary, that you can't imagine ever doing that. That's a good thing. Because we're not supposed to, but clearly in this world even, some people do. Anakin was basically selfish, and he did whatever it took to get those things he wanted - placing that story in a fantasy form with a hint of tragedy, REVENGE OF THE SITH told it extremely well.



----

Shane, this may be debated for years to come, but I think Palpatine got his butt whooped by Mace. Really whooped. No faking.

 

Really whooped. No faking.

But didn't you see Sids eyes right after he said "He's beaten me." and acted all worn out etc? He wasn't hurt at all. He looks right out of the corner of his eyes to Anakin and Mace, back and forth quickly.

IMHO, he was bluffing. This was an attempt to draw Anakin in.

This will be debated, I agree. This and the "was the prunish look his actual face, or a result of lightning?". Both will be debates likely to rage on.

I'm glad Sids origins are still shrouded and ambiguous. Heck, Anakin's origins are now somewhat ambiguous too.

 

How many licks does it take to get to the center of a Tootsie Roll Tootsie Pop? The world may never know.

 

But did you see him looking out of the corner of his eye at Anakin?

Look for it. It is quick, but it shows just how Sids was playing along.

Watch his eyes dart back and forth, like he's A-okay after just acting like he was dying. This is right after Anakin tells Mace he can't kill Palps.

 

the only thing that sids was faking was the fact that he was worn out...he did not take a fall. mace disarmed him and clearly beat him.

 

I disagree. That's why he jumps right back up after Mace is minus a hand and blasts him with lightning.

He was not beaten and not hurt. It was a bluff to play on Anakin's loyalty to him. Watch his eyes. He's clearly playing along.

 

well, i guess we'll just agree to disagree...i think this something that some fans will never see eye to eye on...BUT i saw sids on the floor with a saber to his neck before anakin even got there. i thought that was pretty clear.

 

Just came back from the theater. I thought it was okay. *shrugs* Not all that great, but not bad enough that I want to line it up next AOTC in front of a firing squad. Just...okay.