SWC Productions Present: The Official SW Community ROTS Spoiler Thread

Discussion in 'Star Wars Community' started by Darth-Stryphe, Feb 8, 2005.

Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.
  1. Hudnall Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Feb 23, 2004
    star 5
    Does the lightning age Palpatine or unveil him? You don't know. Does it drain him?

    But we could play this little game with EMPIRE. How do so many ships get away from the blockade? How is the Dark Side in a tree? How does a worm live in the vacuum of space? How does the Falcon attach itself to the side of SD in less than a second? How does the Empire get there before the Falcon? How does the Falcon not detect the Star Destroyers in the system? Why does the swamp monster spit R2 upwards?

    The reason we don't ask these questions is cause they don't matter.

    ---
    #1 - How does the Emperor know Padme's dead at the end of the film?

    Her funeral announcement. He read an obituary.

    #2 - How does Obi Wan know Vader is alive?

    According to an EU junior novel, he reads the paper while picking up groceries in Mos Eisley.

    #3 - Why does Darth Vader wear the mask? He was breathing fine as he
    smoldered by the lava, as he waitied for Sidious, and before the mask on the table.

    To sustain his lungs. I don't remember him "breathing fine." He looked like he had been basted and cooked.

    #4 - Why did Sidious' lighting "age" him, when it didn't do the same to Luke in ROTJ?

    Was it the lightning that aged him, or the overuse of his own power?

    #5 - Why did Mace's lightsaber reflect the lighting back at Sidious, but Obi Wan's didn't do the same when Dooku shot lighting at him?

    Because AOTC sucks.

    #6 - After ROTS, why would Yoda fear Palpatine? And would Obi Wan fear Vader?

    Because he has 10,000,000 Clones who work for him. Obi-Wan doesn't fear Vader.

    #7 - Why does Anakin leave Palpatine alone after he finds out he's the Sith Lord?

    Because he goes to turn him in.

    #8 - Why wasn't R2's memory erased too? Wouldn't he fill 3PO in afterwards?

    Since when did R2 ever do that. Remember A NEW HOPE, R2 didn't exactly tell him everything, did he?

    #9 - Where did Yoda's "good relations" with the Wookies come from?

    I'm scared to ask.

    #10 - Why did Anakin have yellow eyes for ONE shot in the movie?

    He was at his most evil.
    ---

    Why did the Jedi wait three more years in their Sith "investigation?"

    They didn't wait, but the CLONE WARS took priority - but they didn't become suspicious of Palpatine until he began to abuse his executive powers. They have business to attend to and the Jedi are comfortable enough in their position that they haven't felt the need to go into a 'panic' mode.

    I will say, read the novel, it goes into much more detail about this. And is very interesting in its own right. It will go down as one of the best of the novels.


    It's not Faustian .

    It's not Faust, it is STAR WARS, a space fantasy, with a similar theme, "Man sells soul to Devil to save lover and loses everything."


    I'll be interested to see if I feel the same.

    It's interesting in that you have two icons of STAR WARS in the scene, and the escape pod is going up away from a planet - versus landing down to a planet. I really think that was the whole purpose of this scene - simply to say "goodbye" to STAR WARS.


    I haven't heard any bad word-of-mouth, or any word-of-mouth of any sort. I don't actually know anyone who has seen ROTS (except for a co-worker whom I won't get to talk to about his reactions until Tuesday)

    Everyone I know who has seen it wants to go back. I've seen with die-hard fans, casual fans, and a couple of guys who have the old VHS tapes and were disappointed with the last two (saw them once) which are what I call 'normal people'; and they ALL want to see it again.

    I think ROTS will make a lot of money, though I wonder if the adult themes will hurt it some.

  2. gezvader28 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Mar 22, 2003
    star 4
    It's not Faust, it is STAR WARS, a space fantasy, with a similar theme, "Man sells soul to Devil to save lover and loses everything."

    Well in Faustian stories the seller gets something in return. This 'something' is only good in the short term, ultimately it's their undoing, but they get something .
    That's what selling is - getting something in return. What does anakin get ? Sids admits he can't .
    Only an idiot would sell it for nothing .

    So if one guy sells his car for $1000 and another guy says he sold his car but got nothing, it's similar, but rather crucially different .

    g

  3. Patrick Russell Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jul 9, 1998
    star 4
    Well... while I see what you're trying to get at, the important thing to the Faust story isn't that he got what he wanted for a short while... the important thing is that he sold his soul to the devil out of the same kind of greed that Anakin did.

    There's a boatload of Faust in this movie.

    "Something I noticed the 2nd time - padme looks pregnant during the funeral."


    I noticed that when I saw it today. It's an interesting little touch... it's supposed to be common knowledge that she's dead, but not that she had her babies. By padding her stomach for the funeral, they maintain the illusion that the babies died with her.

    (Hud, I saw the Falcon too. Landing just after the shuttle carrying the Jedi and the Chancellor lands at the Senate docking platforms. A nice little cameo there.)

    So, I saw it a third time today, and I must say... I like it. It's not necessarily up there with SW and ESB, but it might possibly be up there near ROTJ. It's holding up quite well for me, and I can safely say now that Lucas finally made one of these prequel films that worked for me.

    The ONLY thing that really whizzes in the Cheerios for me is that belly-laugh-inducing "NOOOOOOOOOOOO!!!!" from Vader at the end. I'm sorry, but that needed to be handled without nearly as much camp. IMHO, it would have been far more effective (and perhaps even chilling) to have Vader croak out the question about Padme while he was lying on the table, have the Emperor spin him the line about Vader having killed Padme, get the slow burn reaction from Vader as the mask is coming down (with Vader slowly but audibly building up to an outburst), and then the "NOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!!!!" right after his first mechanical breaths while the camera is still on the mask.

    The way it was done in the film really almost looks like it's intentionally being played for laughs.

    Beyond that, though, there aren't a lot of things that stand out to me as being overly-distracting. When it comes right down to it, I'm just happy that I managed to dig one out of three of these PT films.
  4. JohnWesleyDowney Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Jan 27, 2004
    star 5


    I liked the "nooooo"! I liked the way Lucas staged and directed the entire Vader scene, from the intercutting with the births, to the surgery, to the look on Anakin's face as the mask is lowered on him.
    Beautifully done.

    The Frankenstein homage was great for me. I didn't interpret the end of the scene where he yells "no!" as campy at all, just an emotional reaction. Different strokes I guess. Like many things in this amazing film, you can take it in different ways.

    I think the audience I saw it with was in such shock by that point at all they had seen (I don't think many of them had been spoiled) that they just went with whatever was onscreen as "oh, that's how it all went down."
  5. TrueJedi Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Jun 22, 2000
    star 5
    I have only one complaint about ROTS and that is, Yoda looks like a cartoon. I still prefer the Yoda in ESB.
  6. hawk Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    May 3, 2000
    star 5
    No offense but I'm sick of the explanation for something bad as a "homage". It's supposed to be the most powerful moment in the film, and Lucas picks this time to pay homage to another film? A simple change would be to use the angry scream from Vader in TESB. Rememeber when he gets hit by Luke's lightsaber and he gets furious? That sound x 10 would have been much more powerful.

    As for Obi-Wan knowing about Vader. Wouldn't he simply know Anakin survived through reputation? He knows the Emperor gives Anakin the name "Darth Vader" and then the Empire is partly maintained by the evil Darth Vader for 20 years. I think he would assume Anakin survived especially if he learnt of this character's appearance.

    One major problem: Who designed Anakin's constume? I think the mask of Vader should have been something Anakin wears before he becomes Darth Vader. Otherwise, it seems contrived that the Emperor would design a nasty mask for Anakin to wear. Did he say to the droids: "oh, and make sure his breathing mask looks evil". It would be better if Anakin incorporated his own dark vision to his suit.


    Then again, it could be coincidence that the mask looks like a skull. The breathing grate was probably needed as well as the eye mask and helmet. Maybe it was coincidence that it looks frightening.
  7. EMPEROR_WINDU Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Nov 23, 2002
    star 5
    The Emperor may have picked out the design for the suit for sheer intimidation purposes. Vader is a scary looking dude...


    One thing's for sure, everyone probably has a TON more respect for what Luke did in the OT, considering what Vader and especially the Emperor are capable of
  8. Hudnall Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Feb 23, 2004
    star 5
    I've had tons more respect for Luke all along. Nothing new to me.

  9. JohnWesleyDowney Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Jan 27, 2004
    star 5
    No offense but I'm sick of the explanation for something bad as a "homage". It's supposed to be the most powerful moment in the film, and Lucas picks this time to pay homage to another film?

    I am NOT defending the scene BECAUSE it's an homage.
    Let me go into this in more detail.

    Lucas said in interviews long ago that the scene would be done in the "vocabulary of the 30s cinema" and many people at the time (there were threads about this as I recall) guessed that meant it would be a Frankenstein-type scene. Vader is certainly a Frankenstein-type of character. He's a monster that steps off an operating table. It's a very appropriate homage under the circumstances.

    I will defend the scene on it's own merits.

    You referred to the OT Vader in the middle of a light saber fight. These circumstances in ROTS are completely different. You're watching his first moments, his first steps, many many years earlier. He's certainly not going to be the Vader of the OT at this point! This is Vader in the suit less than 2 minutes.

    In fact, a critic named James Berandelli made a good point that in this scene, we aren't so much seeing Vader as we are seeing the dying throes of Anakin's identity.

    A simple change would be to use the angry scream from Vader in TESB. Rememeber when he gets hit by Luke's lightsaber and he gets furious? That sound x 10 would have been much more powerful.

    Powerful? I would contend "powerful" would be the absolute worst imaginable directorial choice for this scene.
    Here is why:

    I can't speak for anyone else, but if I had just had two legs and an arm cut off leaving me limbless, been fried in lava, had major surgery, had a helmet put over my head so I could BREATHE and just been told that I had killed the one person in my life I wanted to love and protect more than anyone else I WOULD NOT BE FEELING POWERFUL. I would be physically and emotionally DEVASTATED. The tragedy of this character is what is being shown. That is what is necessary for the scene. This is the moment when the audience sees the end result of Anakin's Faustian bargain: he's in a walking iron lung suit for life and the love of his life is dead. His path to the dark side has ended in tragedy for himself, Obi-Wan, Padme',the Jedi and the galaxy. This is a moment of profound sadness. I think Lucas was trying to make a point here, and I think he gave a lot of thought to his scene.

    The scene of Beru and Owen dead at the Lars Homestead in ANH is an homage to John Ford's The Searchers. Just because it's an homage, doesn't make it bad. Much of Star Wars is a reference to other movies, while at the same time it has it's own identity.

    Just because Lucas shoots a scene different than a fan prefers, doesn't automatically make it bad. That's what I notice over and over again. People didn't like the way the scene was done so it's "bad." No, it just means it's different. For me, it's not necessary to condemn the choice as "bad." There are endless number of ways for a director to shoot almost any scene. When I see a director has done a scene in a film I don't like, I just say, well, I didn't agree with his choice, but I don't automatically characterize it as bad. It's just an interpretation I didn't agree with. I also make a big effort to understand WHY did a director chooses to present a scene a particular way. I've often found on further thought and reflection I was dead wrong, that I hadn't thought deeply enough about the content of the scene to understand why a decision was made to do a scene a particular way.

    We'll have to agree to disagree on this one, Hawk. :)

  10. a2dmusic Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Mar 4, 2001
    star 3
    A simple change would be to use the angry scream from Vader in TESB. Rememeber when he gets hit by Luke's lightsaber and he gets furious? That sound x 10 would have been much more powerful.

    I concur. In fact, I said the exact same thing when walking out of the theater on first viewing.
  11. FutureEmperor Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jul 15, 1998
    star 3
    Downeydude

    "Powerful" is being used to convey the power of a scene, NOT the power of a character.

    I thought such film talk was easily understood.

    And no one is saying an homage is necessarily BAD, but that poorly done homages that render incredibly emotional and pivotal moments of a film saga cheesy ARE bad.

    In any case, I just rewatched the "Tragedy" long version ad. The way Vader is put upright by the table after the series of moments in the ad is 'powerful' and it should not have been capped off by a lame "nooooo!" zoom-out that cuts.

    Hell, even if he had done the no but the camera had stayed still, I think I coulda hung with it.
  12. JohnWesleyDowney Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Jan 27, 2004
    star 5
    Future Emperor,

    Thanks, but I don't really need you to explain things to me. I have a very thorough understanding of everything I spoke about, and I stand behind every single word of it.

    Peace. :)

  13. Patrick Russell Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jul 9, 1998
    star 4
    Again, it's not the fact that Vader yelled "NO!!!" that I have a problem with... it's the way it was filmed. I've seen this film three times now, and that moment has gotten laughs every single time. Not "this is cool" laughs, but "You're ****ing KIDDING me!!" laughs.

    Every time.

    It sucks all the drama out of the moment and turns it into something reminiscent of a Simpsons bit. It's the slow pull-back of the camera as Vader arches his back, throws his head back, waves his tiny hands in the air and bellows a very Shatner-esque "NOOOOOO!!!!" that pooches the thing for me. The way it's staged and filmed is just about the campiest thing I've seen outside of "Jedi Rocks". I understand the moment, I understand why somebody in Vader's situation would yell that, I just think it needed to be handled differently so as not to make it into the moment of unintentional comedy that it is.
  14. EMPEROR_WINDU Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Nov 23, 2002
    star 5
    I have to say that I agree with JWD


    Nobody laughed during this scene the two times I saw the movie...
  15. Hudnall Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Feb 23, 2004
    star 5
    It's not even so much the "Noooo" or those first uncomfortable steps that sets it over the top, it is the extremely awkward pose that he holds for several seconds. It looks funny. Homage or not, Vader isn't Frankenstein - and he should look powerful, not mentally challenged. Powerful and furious like he is destroying the room. Powerful.

    It is a very weak moment in the film. The pose doesn't match the mood or the character or even what he is saying.

  16. DARKAURUM Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jan 21, 2002
    star 3



    For me Anakin's turn is a highlight of the film. I love it. He is simultaneously ripped apart by grief at what he's done, yet he's made a conscious decision (from before he even arrived on the scene of the Windu/Palpatine fight) that he is going to follow Palpatine to the end until he solves the mystery of how to save Padme. It is a coldly calculating decision. Evil as an amoral pragmatism: I will bind myself to Palpatine in order to get what I want - no matter what the cost, no matter who I have to kill, no matter what I have to become.

    Well said.


    Anakin's turn is the worst part of the movie. It was supposed to be the whole point of the first three movies and Lucas BLEW IT! It doesn't make sense.
    a) Why was Mace so insistent on killing Sidious. What happened to the Jedi code?
    b) Why did Anakin continue to serve Sidious? 5 seconds after Anakin pledges his allegiance to him, Sidious reveals that he doesn't really know how to cheat death, but maybe with Anakin's help he could figure it out. Why does Anakin stay loyal to him? Why not simply kill Sidious, and say Mace died in the fight?
    c) You need to be evil for a long time before you get the stones up to killing little children. Even Hitler had someone else do it for him.

    Binary


    1. In Ben Burtt's little world, why must everything sound like a little, chattering, chittering, juvenile, Nickelodeon gag? Why does he think that animals sound like sirens?

    The sound was crap. The mix was crap. The music was turned down for the crap sound effects, just like in the DVD OT releases. I should have seen it coming.

    Binary
    Hudnall, I certainly wouldn't kill a bunch of children in order to save my wife from certain death. Even more so, I wouldn't kill a bunch of children because I had nightmares of my wife dying. Yet more so, I wouldn't kill a bunch of children because a guy who told me he didn't know how to save my wife told me to kill the children. (You know, Sidious's line that went something like, "Only one had the power to prevent death. But I'm sure that together we can unlock the secret.")

    In a nutshell, I didn't feel one iota of sympathy for Anakin.


    Exactly. Anakin stays loyal to Sidious even after Sidious admits he's holding a bad hand.

    ShaneP
    but WHAT POWER? Sid is actually losing against Mace in a not-too manly way I might add.

    You missed the point of that scene. That was a bluff to play on Anakin's loyalty.


    No, after watching it twice, I believe Sidious really did lose. Only after Mace got his arm hacked off was Sidious able to kill him. The point of that scene is that the Sith are, in the end, cowards.

    On a side note, so many problems in these movies could have been ended by a quick stab to the throat, instead of internal debates and talking. Like Anakin, when Sidous reveals himself, Mace, when he had Sidious cornered, he hesitated, and Obi-Wan not finishing Anakin off, even for pity's sake.

    vaderfandan
    Here's 10 questions I have for anyone who enjoyed ROTS -

    #1 - How does the Emperor know Padme's dead at the end of the film?
    The timing is off here. It would have made more sense if the scenes weren't intercut. Padme's death become public knowledge shortly.[b/]
    #2 - How does Obi Wan know Vader is alive?
    Does he? If he does, it's unexplained.
    #3 - Why does Darth Vader wear the mask? He was breathing fine as he
    smoldered by the lava, as he waitied for Sidious, and before the mask on the table.
    I think he was barely staying alive.
    #4 - Why did Sidious' lighting "age" him, when it didn't do the same to Luke in ROTJ?
    I didn't think it was Sidious's lighting being reflected on him, so much as using up that much Dark Side power corrupting him
    #5 - Why did Mace's lightsaber reflect the lighting back at Sidious, but Obi Wan's
    didn't do the same when Dooku shot lighting at him?
    More to the point, why didn't Obi-Wan teach this trick to Luke? And Yoda the trick where you absorb it with your bare hands?
    #6 - After ROTS, why would Yoda
  17. Hudnall Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Feb 23, 2004
    star 5

    Exactly. Anakin stays loyal to Sidious even after Sidious admits he's holding a bad hand.

    What do the Jedi have to offer? Nothing. What choice does he have at this point, in his state of mind? None. That's why he went in the first place, that's why he allowed Mace to be killed. He chose already. There is still the promise of power - and that is all that he needs.
  18. HanSolo29 Manager Emeritus + Official Star Wars Artist

    Member Since:
    Apr 13, 2001
    star 6
    Regarding the NOO! - I had no real problems with it. I wasn't even remotely worried about it too much. I was too sucked into the scene and what was happening. And you know what? It worked for me. I can perfectly understand Vader yelling something like that. In a way, this is the last time Vader brings himself to care about ANYONE until Luke enters his life. The NOOO! signifies that and I like it.(I can't believe I'm bringing myself to defend the film like this - but it totally blew me away!)

    Now, since I didn't get a chance to post this before, here is my review:

    This is the Prequel I have been waiting for - no doubts about that. Although, I went into this movie feeling the complete opposite. I thought it was going to be on the same scale as both AOTC and TPM - I was greatly mistaken. This film far exceeded anything I could imagine and totally blew me away. When the end credits started to roll, I had tears streaming down my face. Lucas finally delivered - the magic was back.

    The opening space battle started nicely with war drums and a pilot's POV of weaving in and out of the fleet. When the battle itself is finally revealed, things start to become hectic. The pacing was a little weird all throughout and it just drug out. We needed a breather badly by the time it was over.

    The little quips and screams from the droids got annoying as well. Since when can battle droids feel pain when they get shot or sliced through with a lightsaber? They never yelled, "OWW!" "OOO!" before when that happened. Even the droid starfighters had something to say and were jabbering to themselves throughout the battle. In short, the droids spoke too much and got VERY annoying.

    The acting itself was greatly approved this time around. Hayden really gave it his all and it showed. He was top notch - especially in the latter half of the film after his turn. The love scenes were still a little awkward, but they worked. It was believable this time around - even Natalie. So, kudos to that.

    Grievous was a bit anti-climatic and didn't really have anything to do in the film except cough and give orders. Kashyyyk was also not needed but both do not drag down the story too much. They are still entertaining.

    Now for the biggie - Anakin's turn. For me, it was believable. I could see where Palpy was coming from and why Anakin ultimately chose the path that he did. Although, the turn itself was a bit quick, he still had good reasons to turn. What would have made this perfect was to slowly have Anakin accept what Palpy was offering him instead of a quick, "Yes, Master" after Mace flies out the window.

    The ending was perfect. It really brought everything full circle. From the time the twins were born onward, I was an emotional wreck. These scenes played out VERY nicely and really brought the whole thing home. What really got me going was the final shot of the twin suns. Just beautiful.

    Overall, this was a very good movie. I actually loved it and had no doubts about it after leaving the theater like I did with both TPM and AOTC. With Ep3, this is the only Prequel for me and the other two can be completely disregarded. ROTS definitely has the feel and magic that surrounded the OT films and I love it! :D
  19. Loco_for_Lucas Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Aug 15, 2002
    star 5
    They didn't wait, but the CLONE WARS took priority - but they didn't become suspicious of Palpatine until he began to abuse his executive powers.
    They have business to attend to and the Jedi are comfortable enough in their position that they haven't felt the need to go into a 'panic' mode.


    I would figure the situation with the Sith would be the priority since, you know, the opposition in the Clone War is being headed up by a Sith.

    That, and honestly, the Jedi are even bigger idiots in this movie than they are in the other two Prequels. Like I asked, why were they so surprised they were betrayed by a mysterious army created from the henchman of a Sith lord? Why was Palpatine the Sith Lord they were "looking for" when they had one by name before them?

    I will say, read the novel, it goes into much more detail about this. And is very interesting in its own right. It will go down as one of the best of the novels.


    That right there tells me ROTS is a weak movie.
  20. AdamBertocci Manager

    Manager
    Member Since:
    Feb 3, 2002
    star 7
    It's supposed to be the most powerful moment in the film, and Lucas picks this time to pay homage to another film?

    Worked in ANH (space battle stuff, very last scene). Those are certainly up there in the 'powerful moments of ANH' department.



    Rick McCallum loves you!
  21. AdamBertocci Manager

    Manager
    Member Since:
    Feb 3, 2002
    star 7
    #10 - Why did Anakin have yellow eyes for ONE shot in the movie?

    More than one. They come back again when he's collapsed on the ground just before he goes all Denethor.



    Rick McCallum loves you!
  22. rhonderoo Former Head Admin

    Member Since:
    Aug 7, 2002
    star 9
    And when the mask is lowered.
  23. DarthBane93 Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jun 11, 1999
    star 4
    I'm wondering what are your thoughts on THE DUEL.

    I for one was underwhelmed. It started off ok, but then just wasnt exhilerating after.

    With all the lore, myth, and hype surrounding this duel, it should have been better.

    I believed it failed.

    Any thoughts?
  24. AdamBertocci Manager

    Manager
    Member Since:
    Feb 3, 2002
    star 7
    To be frank The Duel did not meet my expectations either. I also dislike how it was intercut with Yoda versus Sidious.

    I think it all moved too fast. The characters are so good we can't see that they're good. Compare with TPM, I think it's the best swordfight ever put on the screen ? we can see what's happening even though it's fast.

    I think my disappointment in The Duel is one of the chief reasons I didn't like this as much as AOTC. I mean, we use capital letters for this scene. We don't ever write "The Crawl" or "The Part Where Sidious Says Mysteriously Ominous Things" or "The Exposition Scene".



    Rick McCallum loves you!
  25. HanSolo29 Manager Emeritus + Official Star Wars Artist

    Member Since:
    Apr 13, 2001
    star 6
    I thought it was overhyped. It ended well, but the duel itself wasn't anything special. I thought the duel at the end of TPM was much better choreographed. Don't get me wrong, the Anakin vs. Obi duel had it's moments, but it was WAY overrated. I found myself enjoying the slow dialogue scenes more. They really helped to flesh out the characters.
Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.