SWC Productions Present: The Official SW Community ROTS Spoiler Thread

You would think that George Lucas would have put more "umph" into this fight of legends?

Yes, I was also disturbed by the editing of the duel. Remember the shot of Anakin just grabbing Obi by the throat?

That happened right after a cut from Yoda vs. Sid. I mean...there was no leadup to it, and I thought Obi got out of it too easily...all too fast.

Its good that they moved very fast and furiously, but I would have thought GL would have taken a page from everyones love of the EpI fight and would have topped that one.

Right now, my fav fight overall is still the ESB one. It had it all.

EpI is my next fav, and then ROTJ to me, still beats out Anakin vs. Obi.

I also didnt like the way Obi took out Anakin. The high ground??? Yeah...makes sense. But not movie sense, and is very anti-climatic, again...especially considering the lore surrounding these two fighting.

Also there wasnt enough banter between the two. And what happend to the punches and kicks we were supposed to see???

 

So did anyone see Anakin tell Obi-Wan "f-bomb you" when he has Obi-Wan bent over?

 

Saw ROTS... didn't like it!

What was good:

• The Palpatine/Anakin scenes, the nature of the dark side, the history of the Sith, immortality, etc.


• That "bubble" opera -- weird, but cool!


• When R4 (Obi-Wan's droid) gets his head ripped off in the opening battle scene. I actually said, "Oh ****" under my breath. What's interesting was that I DIDN'T say this when anyone else died!


• Padme/Anakin looking into the Coruscant sunset with that very un-John Williams music playing. That scene worked better than any other in the movie. And no stupid dialogue!


• The Duel itself was lame, but the shot of Anakin dismembered on the lava bank was effective.


• Aunt Beru was hot! Was this the same actress from AOTC?

What was bad:

• Jeez, it was a rapid scene cut to scene cut to scene cut to scene cut to scene! This movie, especially the first hour, just did not flow well. (It's 5 in the morning, I don't know how else to describe it.)


• Conehead Jedi is still stupid-looking.


• Threepio is TOTALLY useless! And he's repeating totally useless lines from the previous movies!


• TPM had "Duel of the Fates," AOTC had "Across the Stars." Where was the signature piece of music for this movie?


• Lack of a distinctive beginning, middle, and end. Sort of ties in with the rapid scene changes. Combine this with the fact that Lucas failed to create compelling characters and you have a really boring movie.


• What everyone else said.

 

I believe we've started an ROTS Line By Line thread in the 3SA for it's debut run.

ROTS - Line By Line

 

The duel started way too fast. In ESB Vader was always in complete control of the fight as long as he remained calm and used only precise swings. He only got hit one time by Luke because it seemed he started to get impatient and used his saber more hectically and therefor opened himself for a short counterattack.

This is also how I imagined the duel between Obi-Wan and Anakin. It should start slowly like in ANH and ESB because both know that they are masters and deadly with the lightsaber and never fought to the death before. So after some relativere cautious hits where they try to find a weakness in their opponents technique Anakin is overwhelmed by his impatience while Obi-Wan keeps his composure and finally beats him because Anakin makes a critical mistake. This would have nicely connected with the scene in the OT and not some lame molten emperor.

I also simply don't understand how Lucas managed to screw up the turning. All indigrients were there in ESB. We didn't need some love-stricken teenager falling to the darkside. Lucas should have used Anakins desire to bring order to the galaxy to finally make him turn because the emperor (I hate the name Darth Sidious) promised him something the corrupt and undecisive senate could not: the prospect of a galaxy which bows to his will and his notion of justice and order (twisted somehow by the emperor). So Anaking chooses the easy way to reach his goals. By the time of ESB Vader would have figured out that the emperor is not what he imagined to be the keeper of order and plans to overthrow him.

I think a solution similar to this would just fit better with the information the OT gave us. Alas, the chance is lost once and for all.

 

No duel compares to the Vader and Luke duel at Cloud City. Never ever will.

For me, this tops the TPM duel, in that there was more emotion to it. I liked it intercut with the Yoda-Sidious duel, especially given that 4 of 5 (now 5 of 6) duels are all intercut. To me, that is part of STAR WARS, a duel intercut with an action piece combined with moving music. I will say that the Duel does improve with rewatching, you catch more.

I did not like the music mixing throughout the Duel. The sudden appearance of DUEL OF FATES felt too forced.

-----

That right there tells me ROTS is a weak movie.

Not really. Most books have more exposition than movies. All the themes within the book were captured within the context of the film - I was the most surprised that they managed to pull that off successfully.

Nothing the Jedi do in this movie comes remotely close to the stupidity they exhibited in ATTACK OF THE CLONES. That was a point where they actually had time to think about whether to surround themselves with a mysterious army, and they did. At least by REVENGE, they've been lulled into seeing the CLONES as partners in the context of the war. The movie sets that up well (internally consistent), as you see several scenes with the CLONES and the JEDI working together.

The only JEDI who knew Palpatine was a Sith were dead by the time Anakin turned. And then they got blindsided.

 

I'm gonna go for the 'good, bad and ugly' format for my review, because my thoughts right now are so bloody disorganized

The good:

--Obi Wan is just awesome. He for me is the only heroic character in the whole of the PT. The "YOU were the Chosen One!" line was awesome, and the look on poor Kenobi's face when he saw what Anakin did to Padme...the only moment that I came close to crying.

--Palpatine was cool too. Too bad the script had him mentioning the dreaded "m word", garghh! But I still won't let that stop me from saluting the greatness of Palpatine (do note, I'm saying Palpatine, not Darth Sidious...more on that later).

--I love the duel. I think I'll probably be among the few bashers who loved the duel. I even like the whole "I have the high ground" part. Great music too!

--The sunset scene, with Anakin and Padme separated. Very nice, with some LOTR-ish music! Alas, this is the only time you'l see me say something nice related to Padme (more on that later)

--Did I mention I looove Kenobi? Oh I did, moving on to...

The bad:

--Poor Natalie Portman, I pity her, she really doesn't contribute much to this movie. Alas, if only I can feel the same symphaty to her character, Padme. Let me get this straight: you know Anakin had killed women and children before, yet you refuse to beleive what Kenobi told you??? Riiight...

--Also, Padme spends the whole bloody movie crying or worrying or nagging Anakin...sorry, but I reached my limit of tolerance for this character! When Anakin choked her, I feel nothing for her. I only feel sorry looking at Kenobi's anguished face. Padme can go to SW's version of hell for all I care.

--And, Padme's worst sin, she simply...lost her will to live? Stupid! Just bloody stupid! I mean honestly, can't they jsut say the force choke caused internal injuries and complicated the birth, etc, thus she died? But noooo, she jsut lost her will to live! Bah, then again, a stupid death is fitting for this stupid character!

--Moving on from Padme...no wait, I can't resist one more mention, her funeral. It's boring, I feel nothing, the new Queen looks stupid, Jar Jar's presence pretty much sealed my dissaproval with the whole thing, at the end of the day the only good thing about the funeral is that Padme is dead! Hurrah! Good riddance!

--Also, not impressed with the CGI battles, Dooku's stupid fast death and the stupidity of Mace Windu ("Let's just go arrest the Chancellor! No need to tell the Senate or anything, or wait for furtehr proof, or use subtlety! Let's just go arrest the most powerful guy in the universe! Yeeehaw!" Sigh...no wonder the Jedi are extinct). But it all pales to my hatred of Padme!

And I move on to...

The ugly:

--Darth Sidious...or maybe I should jsut call him Skeletor from the 'Masters of the Universe' movie. "Poweeeer....UNLIMITED!!!" What the...?! He was so awesome as Palpatine, but from the transformation onwards, this character was just bloody laughable! Awful, just bloody awful!

--Midichlorians...NOOOOOOOOOO!!! I'm ignoring this when I go watch the second time! Garghhh!

--So Anakin joins Sidious to prevent Padme from dying. But Sidious can't guarantee anything. Hell, the guy can't even reverse the damage done to his appearance from the lightning. But still Anakin joins him...bah! I tried liking Anakin, I really did, and there were some great moments here, but at the end of the day, he's just a big idiot!

--Vader's "NOOOOOO!" is just dumb. I hated it. I hate that scene.

Anyway, that's all my somewhat random thoughts. For the record, ROTS is my fave among the prequels, but that's not saying much. And it's nowhere near the greatness of the OT.

Oh, and did I mention I really hate Padme!

 

How does Palpy know Anakin killed Padme ?
I mean the only people who were there when he choked her were Anakin, Obi and Padme .
So how did Palpy know ?

g

 

The duel - wasn't as good as I'd hoped, was it really 12 minutes ?
I think it would've worked better if it were more raw and realistic .
The stuff after Anakin loses is pretty good tho, Anakin burning and clinging on through sheer hate and Obi's final words were powerful moments.

I also liked the idea of the duel in the senate, Sid smashing it up was a nice metaphoric touch .

g

 

Lurking Around wrote: I love the duel. I think I'll probably be among the few bashers who loved the duel.

"I'm with you too!" The Duel is the one part of ROTS (other than a few visuals and the score--but NOT the mix) that I really got into. From Kenobi saying, "Let her go!" up to that stupid part in the duel where they stand in front of each other and twirl and twirl and twirl their lightsabres--is very, very cool. The best lightsabre duel in the PT. I will never forgive Lucas for intercutting it with that damn Yoda-Sidious nonsense. After the twirly exchange, there are some good moments and some bad moments in the duel. Then, when Kenobi backs onto that pipe, it all goes to hell. From this point on, the whole thing sucks. Idiot Nick Gillard couldn't end a duel well to save his life. It all just tanks so bad that I get angry thinking about it, especially when contrasted to the first half of the duel.

Anakin's "I hate you!" sounded whiney, to the last. But I love Kenobi's "I loved you."

 

From Kenobi saying, "Let her go!" up to that stupid part in the duel where they stand in front of each other and twirl and twirl and twirl their lightsabres--is very, very cool. The best lightsabre duel in the PT. I will never forgive Lucas for intercutting it with that damn Yoda-Sidious nonsense

I sort of agree with you. But I just will not let the intercutting or the twirling (it wasn't too long IMO, so I thought it wasn't so bad) or the various CGI stuff stop me from simply loving that duel. And Kenobi, I just have to say again how much I love this guy. That's why it's easy for me to hate TPM, Kenobi has nothing to do there. Oakessteve's rewrite is the true TPM for me!

 

After the twirl, we do get that really sweet Force contest, and for the first time in STAR WARS - we get a very direct visual of what is going on when two sabers clash and hold; two Force users pushing against each other with more than physical strength.


The stuff after Anakin loses is pretty good tho, Anakin burning and clinging on through sheer hate and Obi's final words were powerful moments.

I also liked the idea of the duel in the senate, Sid smashing it up was a nice metaphoric touch .


right on, gez, I second that

 

TPM had "Duel of the Fates," AOTC had "Across the Stars." Where was the signature piece of music for this movie?

Didn't you hear battle of the Heroes??

 

The way, Burtt (now gone *yippee*), mixed "Battle of Heroes", that theme took a backseat most of the movie.

Best SW theme of the Prequels, but undermined by poor sound mixing.

 

Yep, I can't hum "Battle of the Heroes" because of Burtt. When I walked out of ROTS I was humming "Across the Stars".

 

I didn't even notice any new musical themes. I actually wondered about that after I walked out at the end of my first viewing. There was a LOT more rehashing of musical pieces from other SW films in this one than I remembered there being in AOTC, but I didn't notice all that much in the way of new themes. I suppose I ought to pick up the soundtrack and give it a listen, eh?

 

I don't blame Burtt for any of the poor editing or sound mix, Lucas approves all those things so if it wasn't the way he wanted he say so .

I listened to the soundtrack before I saw the movie and it's not very good, there are no strong themes on it IMO . quite disappointing .

g

 

True, Lucas has the final say. But it was Burtt making the choices that he made, and presenting Lucas with something to which he could say "That's good enough." If Burtt had been on top of his game the way he was during the OT, it would have been a whole different ballgame.

 

Well there goes another one...

I thought it was mostly good actually. Improved dialogue and acting all round really. There is a problem with the general coherence of the narrative, some scenes are too short, whilst others are redundant.

But a few things really bothered me, the biggest being the portrayal of Yoda. I'm one of those who intensely disliked his fiendish lightsabre antics in AOTC. So you can imagine if I disliked his Doofus fight, how I was going to react to the stuff he does in this one...

Yoda with a lightsabre is wrong. Yoda using a lightsabre to cut up and dispose of clones is really wrong.

Mace Windu still irritates me, being quite possibly the worst SW character ever. At least with Mr Binks I know what to expect... but not only does Mace receive the greater bulk of the awful dialogue from GL, Samuel L. Jackson consistently demonstrates he's not right to play the role in the first place with what is without a doubt the worst delivery of any other actor in all three PT films.

The irony is that I have no problems with the character as he appears in the comics (where he rests in the hands of more capable writers).


I have fundamental issues with the entire portrayal of the Jedi in the PT so I'll just stop there....



The Emperor wasn't half as bad as I was expecting. Sure Palps has always been the most reliable of the characters/actors in the PT up to this, but I wasn't bothered about the actual Darth Sidious persona in this one. Apart from the Gollum-ish sounds he makes when he's down.

I don't know... maybe I'm just pleased to hear Ian McDiarmid saying "Goood... Gooood" again.

Overall I was impressed with the effort, but the high I was feeling was brought thunderously down by several things:

1) Hearing Darth Vader say "Padme", "is she alright?" and "Nnnnooooooooooo" (nobody beats Van Damme on the dramatic nooos in my book)

2) The midwife saying "nothing's wrong with her, she's just lost the will to live"... eh?

3) The theft of the Binary Sunset shot from ANH. This pissed me off more than anything else in the entire movie... what is Owen doing standing on that knoll looking at the twin suns of Tatooine????!



AWESOME MOMENTS:

-opening shot
-Emperor's return to Coruscant in the rain
-Tantive IV!
-Falcon cameo!
-The conversation between ObiWan and Anakin about who the hero is (because it made me smile, in a good way this time!)
-ObiWan leaving Anakin on Mustafar, picking up the lightsabre as he goes
-Anakin's expression when the Vader mask is being lowered
-Yoda force pushing Imperial guards.
-"So uncivilised"
-That big-titted and barely dressed alien on the steps to the opera
-Jedi getting wiped out (if only for the music)


ARRGGHH!! MOMENTS:

-Buzz droids (eh? is this Stargate SG-1?)
-That fracking iguana and it's piercing cries
-CGI Temueras
-"I dub you Darth... Vader!" - "Thank you"
-Another lame end to a lightsabre duel (pick one)
-Lava Surfing
-Vader crossing his arms
-Yoda saying anything.
-Yoda slicing and dicing clonetroopers.
-Mace Windy "No, he's the traitor!!"
-Any sounds the enemy droids make
-QuiGon being mentioned
-video footage of Anakin kneeling before Palpatine (eh?)

 

Loco

I would figure the situation with the Sith would be the priority since, you know, the opposition in the Clone War is being headed up by a Sith.

That, and honestly, the Jedi are even bigger idiots in this movie than they are in the other two Prequels. Like I asked, why were they so surprised they were betrayed by a mysterious army created from the henchman of a Sith lord? Why was Palpatine the Sith Lord they were "looking for" when they had one by name before them?

Yeah, Count Dooku turned out to be a Sith. He mentioned to Obi-Wan that there was a Sith named Darth Sidious influencing the senate and behind the events of Episode I. Not one of them could brainer it out.

Even before Anakin reveals Palps' identity to Mace, Mace says he feels the dark side around Palpatine. Uhmm... then why don't you arrest him then?

Bertocci
It's supposed to be the most powerful moment in the film, and Lucas picks this time to pay homage to another film?

Worked in ANH (space battle stuff, very last scene). Those are certainly up there in the 'powerful moments of ANH' department.

Yes, the dogfights homage worked in ANH, the frankenvader bit didn't work in ROTS.

C'mon, I know why you like this movie. The gratuitous number of chopped-off extremities in Revenge of the Sith easily outnumbers the rest of the saga combined. What with Dooku getting his arms chopped off, then his head, then Mace getting his hand chopped off, then Anakin losing three limbs, not to mention the clonetroopers the Jedi chop up.

Juan
* Aunt Beru was hot! Was this the same actress from AOTC?

It's funny, ANH happens less than 20 years after all this. So she really must have let herself go. Uncle Owen too.

Lurkin

--So Anakin joins Sidious to prevent Padme from dying. But Sidious can't guarantee anything. Hell, the guy can't even reverse the damage done to his appearance from the lightning. But still Anakin joins him...bah! I tried liking Anakin, I really did, and there were some great moments here, but at the end of the day, he's just a big idiot!

I completely and wholehartedly concur. Right after Anakin helps kill Mace, Palpatine reveals he's got nothing. Instead of Anakin joining Palps, here's what Anakin could have done:
-kill Palpatine
-report the incident to the Jedi council as a failed arrest, with Anakin as the only survivor
-if you think Anakin couldn't live with the guilt of keeping a secret like that, he's managed to keep from the Jedi:
a) his marriage
b) his baby
c) the tatooine massacre

So , really, this WASN'T a 'no going back' moment for Anakin. Especially since he killed Mace for a good reason (not following the Jedi Code), noone knows about it, and Palpatine's got nothing for him.


--And, Padme's worst sin, she simply...lost her will to live? laugh laugh laugh Stupid! Just bloody stupid! I mean honestly, can't they jsut say the force choke caused internal injuries and complicated the birth, etc, thus she died? But noooo, she jsut lost her will to live! Bah, then again, a stupid death is fitting for this stupid character!


This was also stupid. Why not make her have a stroke or something. Like someone else here said: she's alive, she's got two healthy young children, she's apparently got nothing left to life for.

I think once I collect my thoughts thoroughly, I'll post what I did/didn't like in the Sanctuary come Monday.

 

Yes, the dogfights homage worked in ANH, the frankenvader bit didn't work in ROTS.

This is a matter of opinion of specific cases, whereas hawk's post read to me as questioning the very idea of the practice.



Rick McCallum loves you!

 

Thought I'd answer my own questions...

#1 - How does the Emperor know Padme's dead at the end of the film?

As someone pointed out, the editing of this announcement to Vader was all wrong. I'll admit I didn't catch it the first time I saw the movie, but the 2nd time, I thought to myself "How would Sidious know she's dead?" I suppose it all comes down to how thrown together the last 5 minutes of the movie is. It's just horrible. Like someone looked down at their watch and said "Oh my! Look at the time! We need to wrap this up..."

#2 - How does Obi Wan know Vader is alive?

The problem is that we have no idea of what Obi Wan thought. Did he think Vader was alive or dead? Did he leave him there to die, or to suffer until he was rescued? Think about ANH - Obi Wan knew Vader was alive. But why? Because he saw it on Galactic CNN?
That's lame. There should have been a scene or a line that set the stage for what happens in ANH.

#3 - Why does Darth Vader wear the mask? He was breathing fine as he smoldered by the lava, as he waitied for Sidious, and before the mask on the table.

When you think about Vader, you think of the mask. The whole point of the mask is so that he can breathe.
But with the excpetion of the scene when he is being wheeled into the hospital, he breathing on his own.
They should have left the mask on him while he was on the table in the operating room. They should've shown him struggling to breathe as he was trying to claw his way to higher ground. There should have been an excessive amount of clues that Vader couldn't breathe.
Instead, the mask just seems like a cosmetic cover up for his wounds.

#4 - Why did Sidious' lighting "age" him, when it didn't do the same to Luke in ROTJ?
#5 - Why did Mace's lightsaber reflect the lighting back at Sidious, but Obi Wan's
didn't do the same when Dooku shot lighting at him?

For 5 & 6, the answer is the same = A force power, or lightsaber, can only do what they do. They can't change from movie to movie. If a laser hits a lightsaber, it bounces off right? If a lightsaber suddenly absorbed a laser blast, you's ask yourself "What the hell? A lightsaber can't do that."

Lighting either kills or drains - one or the other, not both.
A lightsaber either absorbs lighting, or refelcts it back. One or the other not both.

#6 - After ROTS, why would Yoda fear Palpatine? And would Obi Wan fear Vader?

Yoda has no reason to fear Palpatine or hide from him. Yoda held his own and did damage to him. It just so happened that Palpatine held on to a Senate Pod longer. Yoda shouldn't have run in the first place. He has no reason to think that he would automatically lose a fight against Palpatine.

Obi Wan has no reason to fear Vader (assuming he knows he's still alive).

So why would they decide to go into hiding for 20 years? Yoda can hang with Palpatine, and Obi Wan has already bested Vader once before. If they are going to stop the Sith, NOW would be the time to do it!
Clone troopers? Obi Wan and Yoda took care of them when they returned to the Jedi Temple, so I imagine they could figure out a way to get to Palpatine whether Clone troopers were around or not.

#7 - Why does Anakin leave Palpatine alone after he finds out he's the Sith Lord?

Does Anakin not know how to use a cell phone? Wouldn't he call Mace and tell him he's got the Sith Lord they've been looking for at saber point, and he needs some back-up? Instead Anakin LEAVES! What kind of an idiot would do that? "Hey Palpatine. I'm going to tell on you. You wait here until the Jedi arrive."
STUPID!

#8 - Why wasn't R2's memory erased too? Wouldn't he fill 3PO in afterwards?

Of course he would. R2 & 3PO are buds. R2 would've spilled the beans to 3Po, and 3PO would've told everybody in the OT. BOTH their memories should've been erased.

#9 - Where did Yoda's "good relations" with the Wookies come from?

This is the only film where Yoda even mentions Wookies. Now all of a sudeden they're best friends? Whatever. Let's be

 

SKYWALKER QUESTION:

Does anyone know why Luke retained the last name of "Skywalker" while in hiding on Tatooine? Isn't that a bad idea?

 

That's been a problem ever since ROTJ, unfortunatley. ROTS couldn't fix that terribly easily without some contrived silliness. I guess for the same reason Obi-Wan changed his first name when he went into hiding, but not his last?

 

What scene was the falcon cameo in??