SWC Productions Present: The Official SW Community ROTS Spoiler Thread

Palpy gave him a short dose of lightning - smaller than anything given to Luke, smaller than what Anakin takes in AOTC, and smaller than what we'll see in ROTS.

None of these damages were sufficient to kill him. Nothing he takes on DS2 is enough to send him spiraling into a critical condition where "nothing can stop that now."


I was under the impression that the lightning fried Vader's suit, which is why it crackles around his circuitry and he struggles to breathe afterwards. His sacrifice comes from knowing that taking on Palpatine is not a good idea but he still decides to save his son.

If you are right Hud, then I don't think enough was made of this in the OT. It is clear that the machine is keeping him alive and that he is in thrall to Palpatine but nothing is made of the Dark SIde itself sustaining his life.

 

You mean where he says "No, Anakin."? How do you get "Yoda! Anakin's killing the Tuskens!" from that?

I don't.

g

 

I just see it as lazily copying and pasting Qui Gon's "Anakin!" from TPM and then getting someone else to say "Nooooooo!"

It is rubbish and pointless.

 

I can agree that the execution could have been better, but I am in no way opposed to the idea behind Qui-Gon's voice being heard at that particular moment.

In fact, the story of Qui-Gon is one of the aspect of the PT that have surprised me in a particularily positive way after thinking he would be gone after TPM.

 

MANDALORIAN, where did you find that icon? This isn't a Masters of the Universe message board.

 

The music score spoilers are incredible. The music, as it appears in the credits, has gone increasingly good from movie to movie. I just hope Burtt doesn't do to this score what he did to AOTC's score.



I was under the impression that the lightning fried Vader's suit, which is why it crackles around his circuitry and he struggles to breathe afterwards. His sacrifice comes from knowing that taking on Palpatine is not a good idea but he still decides to save his son.

If you are right Hud, then I don't think enough was made of this in the OT. It is clear that the machine is keeping him alive and that he is in thrall to Palpatine but nothing is made of the Dark SIde itself sustaining his life.


Nothing can stop that now..... unless, of course, you know of a good electrician.

This is one of those things where I don't see why it would need to be addressed in the OT. And really, Vader's ROTJ quotes like the one above and his statement in the catwalk can be seen as references to just that.

Just my opinion, but I think this is one of the PT elements that really does add meaning to the OT. It kind of implies why Vader is so subservient to Palpatine post-suit, why he won't turn and adds meaning to his last act of destroying Palpatine. He gains redemption NOT for simply killing the Emperor, but because he was willing to sacrifice his own life in order to do so - the ultimate act of compassion and proof of faith.

 

He gains redemption NOT for simply killing the Emperor, but because he was willing to sacrifice his own life in order to do so - the ultimate act of compassion and proof of faith.

But would this not be true, regardless? That is, he's sacrificing his life to kill the Emp. and save Luke regardless of whether or not the explanation is (1) touching the Emp. while he's in lightning action mode will fry his breathing app. circuitry or (2) your whole Dark Side/Palpatine keeps him alive thing?

I think it's ALWAYS been about Vader sacrificing himself, regardless of the interpretation.

And aside from anything else, it sure sounds like the mechanics are what are failing him post-Palpy toss, listening to the foley tracks.

 

So the line "Nothing can stop that now" simply means his circuits are fried? Motherboards aren't in production these days in the GFFA? No electricians? Anakin is good at fixing things, can't he just pop a fuse back into place? If it was purely mechanical, why can it not be fixed?

Because it isn't mechanical, it is spiritual. Anakin has decided to give in and accept his natural fate to die.

That is the way of things, the way of the Force.

 

So the line "Nothing can stop that now" simply means his circuits are fried? Motherboards aren't in production these days in the GFFA? No electricians? Anakin is good at fixing things, can't he just pop a fuse back into place? If it was purely mechanical, why can it not be fixed?

In time? When you're stuck on an unfinished about-to-be-blown-up Death Star II?

Because it isn't mechanical, it is spiritual. Anakin has decided to give in and accept his natural fate to die.

OK, my grandfather did the same thing when he passed. Doesn't mean it had to do with the Dark Side or Palpatine, though...

At least, I hope not!

 

So the line "Nothing can stop that now" simply means his circuits are fried? Motherboards aren't in production these days in the GFFA?

Apparently, there isn't enough time to locate a new motherboard or replace all the fried circuits before Anakin dies for good.

My brain is fried from my attempt yesterday to explain the whole Anakin/Vader thing. Forcing your audience to do these sorts of mental gymnastics to make your current story fit the previously written story is one more sign of bad writing.

EDIT:

Just read the new spoiler from T-BONE--I can't believe it! I guess Lady Bail's other brother is Bail Antilles! Is she also Wedge's long-lost auntie!?

GFFA gonna shrink to a black hole by the end of ROTS!

Hopefully, it will suck in everything that is SW junk from 1997 onwards!

 

New spoilers at T-Bone's site actually weigh in on this, too, albeit indirectly. His words:

"- Anakin cannot wield lightning due to the fact that he has a metal arm. Vader also loses the other arm later on as you know so he's basically a lightning rod by the end of the film which is why in EPISODE VI it really does a number on him and you see his skull and all that. He's a (sub)human lightning rod. It would kill him to try to wield it."

 

In the time Luke took to stop and have his little fireside chat, they would have been loaded up and off. The entire Alliance fleet including the medical frigate is just minutes away. Minutes, seconds.

Vader says "nothing" - it is tantamount to saying that no amount of medical help or mechanical or anything. I see why someone could assume that he had a mechanical failure - but it is just that - an assumption. And Anakin himself seems to imply that it is not - it is something that "nothing" can stop.

 

Also, in SW, there are other cyborgs. Look at Dengar in ESB. He has some prosthetics. Luke has a bionic hand. It is fairly common technology. If the Emperor's lightning had just damaged some equipment, then Luke and Vader could have easily replaced it. They were close enough to the Rebel fleet, and there was a medical frigate.

 

True, on one hand there's the physical damage caused to Vader by the Force lightning. I also agree that Vader seems resigned to his fate, giving in to death after realizing Luke sets him free. Naturally, it makes for a nice ending to the film, but I also wonder if there is a Dark Side element to it. Earlier Vader seems trapped and unable to turn against the Emperor even if he wanted ("You don't know the power of the Dark Side. I *must* obey my Master") so maybe his death is as much Dark Side penance for turning on his master as for actually getting fried. A price to pay for betrayal, so to speak. Yet at the same time apparently turning on his Master redeems his good side and, according to the 2004 DVDs, means he shows up as a Force ghost aged about 16, so I'm not sure how the Dark Side could in fact punish him since he was now good and now I've gone cross-eyed.

 

LSHB,

as a Force ghost aged about 16, so I'm not sure how the Dark Side could in fact punish him since he was now good and now I've gone cross-eyed.

I know what you mean! I've been cross-eyed since 1983!

 

Vader says "nothing" - it is tantamount to saying that no amount of medical help or mechanical or anything. I see why someone could assume that he had a mechanical failure - but it is just that - an assumption. And Anakin himself seems to imply that it is not - it is something that "nothing" can stop.

I like that "nothing" means nothing. Really, I get it. I never just glossed over it when watching ROTJ; it's significant. It means he deliberately sacrificed himself to save Luke and kill Palpatine. The ultimate sacrifice.

The debate isn't that, is it? It's what killed him that's at issue. Did the combination of the lightning frying his circuits AND zapping up his old man biological pieces, too? Or is it some parasitic Palpatine+Dark Side-keeps-Vader-alive thing?

"I MUST obey my master" - refers to Palps, not the Dark Side itself. If, as some have argued, this means Vader dies if he tosses Palps into a pit, then why would he be plotting to overthrow the Emp. with Luke in TESB?

 

Given that so many spoilers indicate Sidious plans on seducing Luke with the "Dark Side Cheat Death" trick, the Dark Side most likely is what keeps him afloat post-Lava bath.

And add that nice wrinkle into the mess - the guy survives a lava bath, but a short dose of lightning and mechanical failure is unfixable. Doesn't make sense, not that any of this does.

"Master" might mean Dark Side. Who knows. That contradiction in dialogue was something ROTJ created. And clearly from the ROTS spoilers, pre-suit Vader is already plotting to get rid of Palpy.

I don't know if there is a definitive answer exactly what killed him: both, neither, one or the other. My conclusion is only based on what best fits in my own mind given what is out there - and so far, it doesn't exactly say either way.

 

And add that nice wrinkle into the mess - the guy survives a lava bath, but a short dose of lightning and mechanical failure is unfixable. Doesn't make sense, not that any of this does.

Well, let's face it. He simply should not survive a lava bath. It never should have been written this way in the ROTJ novel, because it makes no sense. Flesh cannot endure that. If Anakin can survive that, then Palps can survive in the reactor core!

But that's what's going to happen. And on that basis, the latter part of your statement strikes me as the key.

None of this makes sense.

 

The thing with lava is that it's so hot (often up to like 1200 degrees celsius) that it can kill you without even touching you. I saw a show that was on Nova I think where a number of people died in Hawaii from the heat of a ruptured lava vent, not the lava itself. A scientist taking a measurement over another vent had the fronts of his shoes melt off..comfy. So if Anakin actually takes a dunk (particularly in those nice flammable robes) it's going to be hard to sell unless his midichlorians are made of asbestos. By the same token of course Gollum should have gone up like a torch a la Temple of Doom well before actually landing in the lava, but that's no excuse for not getting it right this time. I never really figured out the whole fixation with lava causing Anakin's injuries anyway, it seems a pretty odd way to be catastrophically mauled in such a technologically advanced galaxy. Molten steel from a Geonosis-like foundry would make more sense (or even from a lightsaber battle - think Qui Gon v. Blast door in TPM). I think the storyline is really going to have to strain to get Anakin and Obi-Wan into a live volcano in the first place.

 

Surviving a volcano isn't just about avoiding the lava. I saw a special recently on Pompeii and many people died from toxic fumes. The pyroclastic flow was so hot, some people were vaporized, others were turned into charcoal instantly, while still others were flash-boiled, i.e., their brains boiled and their skulls exploded.

So, nope, Anakin should not survive the lava bath, and that scene shouldn't have been in the ROTJ novelization.

But, it is. More mental gymnastics!

Hey, GL, I want my gold medal for best attempt at forcing these unbelieveable ideas into a workable format!

 

The power of a thinly described event elevated to legendary status by fevered imaginations...

 

Stryphe wrote: Oh, you've got to be kidding me Binary. What could they do with a 90 minute SW movie?

I'm dead serious. Don't you wish Lucas cut TPM down to 90 minutes by cutting out all the stuff about Jar Jar, midichlorians, Chosen One, and virginal conception? Don't you wish Lucas cut AOTC down to 90 minutes by cutting out the entire Anakin/Padme subplot? If nothing else, a short bad movie is a bit easier to take than a long bad movie.

Wouldn't a 90-minute ROTS with no Grievous or sabre-wielding Sidious and Yoda be an improvement?

Of course, knowing Lucas, if he did cut ROTS down to 90 minutes, he'd probably do it by getting rid of the space battle and the Anakin-Kenobi duel.

 

Trailer viewed today - post on MF.com March 11 - woot!

 

At first I wasn't looking forward to the space battle, but that guy's review has me more interested right now.

 

MANDALORIAN, where did you find that icon? This isn't a Masters of the Universe message board.




Yep. I thought the only way to share my displeasure at Palpatine's new 'look' was to put it as an icon and refer to it in my sig.


I must admit though, some pictures are pretty cool.