Lit Sword of the Jedi by Christie Golden

Discussion in 'Literature' started by Todd the Jedi, Sep 2, 2012.

  1. Barriss_Coffee Chosen One

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    Well obviously it was never meant to be a hanging plotline. But as it is, Jaina has yet to prove she's the "Sword of the Jedi". In the event the series is cancelled (which I currently doubt, but there's still a good chance), it's no doubt going to suffer the same fate as the many other dangling tassels plotlines in the LOTF/FOTJ era.

    There was an individual with this name, but the "white eyes" symbolism has appeared in Denning's books starting wayyyy back with Tatooine Ghost. People starting picking up on the recurring "white eyes" symbolism years before LOTF. The problem is, there was never a satisfying -- or even tangible -- conclusion to the concept. It was just something Denning would throw out there from time to time. Maybe he had a plan originally. Maybe there was no plan and we're meant to make sense of it ourselves. I heard people say it had to do with Dark Empire, Jacen's fall, Abeloth's existence, Cronal's survival, etc, and make several good but conflicting arguments. I personally feel Denning was toying around with an idea he never got an opportunity to finalize and decided to subtly drop it.
  2. Revanfan1 Chosen One

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    White eyes...hmm. I'll have to go back and reread those books, see if I catch on to the white eyes concept. What's this about Cronal's survival? Was he ever in one of Denning's books? And how are those things connected with white eyes? That's funny; I do vaguely remember Jacen seeing a vision of white eyes over a planet that people noted looked a lot like Abeloth's face, but I don't remember if it was one of Denning's books or not. Has anyone ever compiled a list of the white eyes' appearances in his books?
  3. Tim Battershell Force Ghost

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    From the eye colour and his ability to access a datacard/chip without a reader, I'd say that the answer is that the 'White Eyes' Sith in Fury was simply Arkanian.
  4. Barriss_Coffee Chosen One

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    I'm trying to find the original thread someone made on the topic and looking up "white eyes" in the search engine only goes so far back as 2009, when people were already well aware of that theory and quoting the original thread. The link to the original thread seems to be broken. @Havac, you must remember what I'm talking about, right? Is there a way we can search threads before 2009, or is that option not available now that we moved? I can only go back 8 pages on the search engine and it blocks me. I can't even search my own old posts beyond 8 pages.

    Well anywho, it was an interesting idea. It sort of culminated with the Fury White Eyes dude and everyone freaked out, and then uh... nothing happened after that.
  5. LivingJediDream Jedi Grand Master

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    Denning talks about white eyes in the interview with the Star Wars Action News podcast. It's supposed to symbolize that the individual is at the mercy of the Force. I guess you have free will but it is evil to exercise it if it goes contrary to the flow of the river that is Denning's metaphor for the Force.
  6. Revanfan1 Chosen One

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    That's...weird. I'm not entirely sure I understand. :p
  7. Barriss_Coffee Chosen One

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    Ehhh ok. At least he's uh, acknowledged it? For better, ambiguous, or worse?
  8. Havac Some Guy Who Moderates Lit

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    Hahahahaha, "someone."

    Anyway, it appears that you may only be able to get so many results. So I narrowed the search by first trying title-only searches, and then "white eyes cronal." That got me back far enough.
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  9. beccatoria Force Ghost

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    The fact that submitting to the Will of the Force is both paramount to the Jedi Way but also an effective argument that free will is of the Dark Side is something I always thought the mythology should do more with (and possibly why I never found Cade Skywalker as annoying as some).

    As to the White Eyes thing, okay, that's not what I got from it, so that's interesting, but I always thought it was a fairly clear metaphor even if it never had actual narrative payoff. It was a subterranean alternate timeline - a possible future visible through the Force where, for one reason or another, Luke went to the dark side. As such even when it was obviously never a reality that would actually come to pass, certain parallels could be drawn with his alternate self. The subversive darkness of the way making himself the Grandmaster of the Order wasn't a solution to anything, for instance. Everyone might have begged him, but does it make it any less of a dictatorship? And stuff.

    As to Jaina...meh. She was named Sword of the Jedi before Dark Journey. Part of her motivation for her behaviour in Dark Journey was that name. I mean, we can argue whether that was the reason or the excuse (and I have no firm position), but being told that she's supposed to save everyone right after her brothers die and she feels impotent and furious in the face of the war probably isn't going to help matters (and I believe she verbalises as much at some point?)

    So if that's her punishment, well, firstly, I generally defend that book because I don't think it's a pinnacle of writing awesomeness, but I also think it gets judged as if it's a grand fall to the Dark Side and redemption story when, well, it's not, so I'm...not totally sure I agree it counts as something she needs cosmic punishment for? And I think even if it were, there would at least be space to ask whether there are gender dynamics at play here in terms of expectation? (Men get heroic or defiant deaths, women live on in disgrace - even if it's just an unfortunate confluence of events that plays into a broader trope?)

    But more importantly that that - from an in-universe perspective - providing the punishment before the crime gets us into all sorts of causality arguments, questions of free will, and is basically likely to lead me back to the point where I'm siding with Kreia again. Which screw it, I would read that story, but somehow I don't think it's the one we'd get?

    So bottom line is: I'm basically in favour - given the varying levels of confidence I have in the franchise's writing at the moment - of just having it be a prophecy that she's gonna kick a lot of ass.

    *crossing everything for SDCC*

    I really, really continue to hope this isn't cancelled. As I've said before, even if it's not good, Jaina as the hero is something I have literally been waiting more than half my life to see. Having that trashed right before the finish line would be...depressing to say the least.
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  10. Barriss_Coffee Chosen One

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    The hell? I could have sworn I heard that from someone else first. Someone who actually put thought into the matter, around the Dark Nest era. Blargh.

    Same here. I WANT to like Jaina. But she spends the majority of her plots thinking about men. So at this point I've sort of written her off as the token scifi female. When she's doing any sort of action I get the sense the authors are forcing it. "Look, the female Solo is doing something!"

    It wasn't so bad before and during most of the NJO. Then her character took a nosedive.
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  11. LivingJediDream Jedi Grand Master

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    Jaina became overwhelmed by the Sword of the Jedi moniker after NJO. Even during the NJO, it seemed like she wasn't as prominent as Anakin and Jacen, whom both acted as foils to one another. Jaina had Jag and Kyp but not nearly as much focus since those two characters weren't attached at the hip like Jacen and Anakin were for much of the first half of the series.

    She's still been better characterized than Ben, though, who has had no foil.
    Last edited by LivingJediDream, Jul 13, 2013
  12. beccatoria Force Ghost

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    I invite you to join the reality I live in, where every time Jaina starts thinking about men, my brain erases it and replaces it with sequences of her headbutting bad guys. NGL, it's pretty awesome.
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  13. Barriss_Coffee Chosen One

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    Ahhhh I found the thread! It's Thrawn McEwok's. I knew it was one of those clever Lit theorists. Unfortunately, the thread's missing the posts past the first page: http://boards.theforce.net/threads/...n-in-troy-dennings-_tatooine-ghost_.17332485/

    I want to give them credit with trying to place Vestara in as the foil, but there seemed to be some conflation between "foil" and "girlfriend."
  14. LivingJediDream Jedi Grand Master

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    Plus she seemed to serve that role more with Luke than Ben.
  15. Jedi Ben Chosen One

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    (my emphasis)

    Now there's a damning indictment of DR's lack of planning!
  16. Revanfan1 Chosen One

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    I agree, Ves was more Luke's foil than Ben's. It was quite clear through the whole series that Luke didn't approve of (or even particularly like) Vestara, and she certainly didn't like him (although she tried in Conviction and Ascension). In fact I think it's safe to say she flat-out hated Luke by Apocalypse. But I think Ben did fine without a foil; sure it might've made him more interesting if he had one, but I think he did just fine with Luke.
  17. LivingJediDream Jedi Grand Master

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    I don't. My (edit: second lololol) biggest problem with the post-NJO stories is that the next generation just isn't as interesting as Anakin, Jacen, and Jaina were in the NJO. I don't think that Ben could carry a novel like Anakin could in Conquest, or Jacen could in Traitor. That Jaina's novel Dark Journey is one of the lowest rated of the NJO series is also something of an indictment on how she was really the most poorly represented in the NJO, but I still think that they did a better job with her then than they have since.
    Last edited by LivingJediDream, Jul 13, 2013
  18. beccatoria Force Ghost

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    In fairness, Vector Prime was just under half my life ago (wow I'm old), but I'm sort of referring to my entire experience of the EU stretching back further than that, and my absurd affection for that vision of the future Luke has at the end of the third Dark Empire comic with the three Solo kids all lightsabered up in silhouette and what I can, in retrospect, identify as a simultaneous thrill and sinking feeling as part of my brain did the math on how likely it was that Jaina would get as much attention as her brothers, and the other part of my brain screamed NEVER TELL ME THE ODDS!

    But I think your point still stands.
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  19. tjace Force Ghost

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    I thought Ben carried Exile pretty well. Of course, I also like Dark Journey.
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  20. Jedi Ben Chosen One

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    Heheheh, yeah that DE image was great wasn't it?

    And if any series was likely to give Jaina her due, it would be SW wouldn't it?

    Didn't turn out that way! :( And I'm not exactly a fan of the Solo kids!
  21. LivingJediDream Jedi Grand Master

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    What do you mean if any series was likely to give Jaina her due, it would be SW?
  22. Jedi Ben Chosen One

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    Of various series, SW has far stronger claim to featuring female characters prominently e.g. Leia.
  23. Revanfan1 Chosen One

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    I never saw that pic. I have to find it now!
  24. LivingJediDream Jedi Grand Master

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    Ah, I've often heard the opposite stated, since Leia and Mon Mothma are the only two females in the whole of the original trilogy, and Padme's role in the prequel trilogy is much lesser than that of Anakin and Obi-Wan.
  25. Revanfan1 Chosen One

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    Jun 3, 2013
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    Okay, I've scoured the internet–Wookieepedia, Google, even Amazon.com–and I can't find a picture of Luke's vision. Anyone got one handy?