Symbiotic relationship between Anakin and Padme

Discussion in 'Prequel Trilogy' started by KnightWriter, May 19, 2005.

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  1. Leias_Lipgloss Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jul 25, 2004
    star 1
    Something I still don't understand though is how Anakin wasn't able to read Padme's mind and know that she did *not* bring Obi-Wan to kill him. Was he just not actively trying to read her? If he could feel her so strongly also, how come he didn't know through the Force that she was pregnant? Instead, he comes to this conclusion through his sense of touch (that she is trembling).
  2. Lelila_ Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Oct 17, 2005
    star 1
    He could tell that something was off when they met up, but since he wasn't actively looking for what it was, he could tell she was pregnant... just as later on he had this hysterical victim complex going on... "You're against me" blah blah blah, so he didn't *want* to really know that she was telling the truth, which is was is, IMO, one of the great failings of the Sith. In ROJ, Palpatine is so confident that Luke is destined to turn that he disregards any alternate paths.
  3. Lumpawarrump Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Apr 3, 2001
    star 1
    I definitely believe there was a strong symbiotic force relationship between Anakin and Padme. I thought Lucas did a beautiful job of communicating this in the 'ruminations' scene. It's a nice echo of the Luke/Leia and Luke/Vader intercutting in Empire, but with an even more powerful sense of emotional connection.

    I also agree that the unintentional abuse of this connection by Anakin is the main cause of Padme's death. Anakin was so focused on saving Padme's life with the dark side, that his force connection with her became corrupted. He became too attached to her life force in an obsessive, selfish way. So much so that as he used his forces powers on Mustafar, willing himself to stay alive so he could still save her, he was really draining Padme of her own life force. Quite tragic.

  4. Leias_Lipgloss Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jul 25, 2004
    star 1
    I agree Lumpa. Anakin was like a vampire draining her of her life force at the end.
  5. Father_Time Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Nov 26, 2003
    star 2
    Yes, I agree too. Ever since Anakin came back into her life she really has been "dying a little bit each day." And by the end of Episode III, Padme has no strength of her own left to even live for her children.
  6. DarthSapient Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Jun 26, 2001
    star 10
    Very nice analogy. As Anakin grew in power from the blood of his victims, his love had her powers diminished slowly from her.
  7. rhonderoo Former Head Admin

    Member Since:
    Aug 7, 2002
    star 9
    Upping for dicussion. :)
  8. ROTSFan Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jul 25, 2006
    star 4
    That's true, Luke was very clear in ROTJ about Leia's real mother, then got a far off look in his eyes and said something to the effect of "I don't remember my real mother, I never knew her"

    An important point...in the ROTS book, it says that when the twins were born Luke had his eyes squeezed shut and Leia had her eyes wide open and was looking directly at Padme, taking in everything. Since these are force sensitive twins, this is quite possible the reason Leia had "images...impressions" of her real mother of being kind, beautiful, but sad. Which is exactly the emotions Padme had when the twins were born. It would also explain why Luke (with his eyes squeezed shut) has no memory of his mother, even though he was there as well.

    It is possible that Lucas had this put in the official novel for this reason. He's good at tying up loose ends that way :)
  9. RamRed Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    May 16, 2002
    star 4
    Yes. Thank you for posting this. When I first watched the movie, my take on her death was that she'd died of a broken heart, which was a pretty crappy fate for someone who'd supposedly been such a strong and self-willed person earlier in the PT.


    Why is it crappy? Why is it so hard to believe that even a strong-willed person can die of a broken heart? The more I read comments like the above, the more I am convinced that human beings harbor a lot of illusions about themselves. Guess what folks? Even strong-willed people are capable of giving into despair and depression. It happens, whether you like it or not.
  10. darthzeppo Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Aug 21, 2005
    star 3
    I like that she dies of a broken heart. It makes her less perfect and less of a ?role model? character.
    I hate ?role model? characters.
  11. leia_naberrie Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Sep 10, 2002
    star 4

    I think that yes, we are to infer a symbiotic relationship. (Sorry I'm too lazy to read the whole thread so forgive me if I repeat points already stated).

    The most powerful depiction of a connection between them is the scene just before he leaves the Temple, when he and Padme stare across at each other through what appears to me their minds and their hearts.

    Why the symbiosis? Well, they are married - husband and wife, and that's a spiritual connection. They also love each other deeply (emotional connection) and are, in a sense, physically connected through the children Padme is now carrying. There is even the possibility that the twins with their Father's sensitivity could have upped their mother's midi-chlorian count, and made her even more attuned to Anakin. (There was a concept art of Padme being in pain over this and going to see Yoda for healing but there was no room for this in the movie.)

    These are some of the major reasons why I feel that they shared a symbiotic relationship. I've always felt that there was "more to the eye" of why she died. Remember the movie never says that she died of a broken heart. The med-droids simply say that she's dying for reasons they cannot understand, and the birthing/her dying scene is constantly intercut with scenes of Anakin as he's being converted into Vader - as he's dying so to speak. Perhaps this is the true reason why Padme died physically, because of Vader's spiritual death. Once the twins had left their mother's body, and she lost the protection they gave her, she died.
  12. RebelScum77 Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Aug 3, 2003
    star 6
    Good points, especially that last bit. It would go a long way in explaining her manner of death. I think it's actually a bit poetic, though I know it is still unsatisfactory for some. But the key with their entire relationship is to not look at it at face value, there's a lot going on here including a likely symbiotic relationship, especially when the babies become involved.
  13. Master_Shaitan Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Dec 31, 2004
    star 5
    I always looked at "dying of a broken heart" as basically meaning that Padme was not able to adapt.

    There was an interesting cut scene from AOTC where Padme spoke to Anakin about a group of alien beings she had helped when part of a relief group. They had to go and live on another planet as their own one was dying. But after a short period on the new planet they died as they were not able to adapt.

    That's basically what I think happened with Padme. Anakin indeed broke her heart, much like how the aliens planet was dead. But no matter what happened, she just wasnt able to repair the damage caused or adapt to her the world she was now in.

    I'm disappointed when people say "what about the kids! Surely she could have lived for them?". I don't think that has anything to do with it. The damage was done. Imagine Padme was stabbed in the heart instead and died. We wouldn't be then questioning why she didnt make herself go on. Well, for me, having her heart broken is the same as having it physically damaged. She simply couldn't go on. She couldn't adapt to her new environment.

    I also think this makes Padme's character better not worse. I think it underlines what a pure and good person she was and how she was tainted by Anakins greed.

    I think the symbiotic relationship between A&P and Padme's death of a broken heart were two very strong points of the PT.
  14. Dezdmona Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jun 9, 2005
    star 4
    Interesting MS. [face_thinking] I hadn't thought of it in quite that way before.
    I do agree that she could not abide by the change in Anakin, thus the symbiosis between them was broken.

    By letting go, she actually afforded the children protection from the Sith.
  15. voodoopuuduu Classic Trilogy Trivia Host

    Game Host
    Member Since:
    Mar 22, 2004
    star 5
    I always looked at "dying of a broken heart" as basically meaning that Padme was not able to adapt.

    There was an interesting cut scene from AOTC where Padme spoke to Anakin about a group of alien beings she had helped when part of a relief group. They had to go and live on another planet as their own one was dying. But after a short period on the new planet they died as they were not able to adapt.


    Yeah, Lucas should have left that deleted scene in. Dying of a "broken conflicted brain" rather than "broken heart" would be more like it.
  16. Master_Shaitan Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Dec 31, 2004
    star 5
    I think that last point you make Dez could be very true as well.

    Im not saying Padme just stopped and thought to herself about letting herself die to save her kids. I see it as a subconscious choice. Deep down inside her. If she lived the Sith would have sensed it. They would have known that the children survived and they would never have been safe.

    So from this POV Padme did her kids a great service and protected them from the Sith.
  17. Loco_for_Lucas Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Aug 15, 2002
    star 5
    I never understood the whole "if she dies, the children are safe" angle. I would if she believed Anakin was lost, but before she dies, she makes it known that she believes there's still good in him.

    If there is still good in him, in her belief, then there is reason for her to live because that means there is still redemption for Anakin. By saying there's still good in him, she believes he can still come back, and, in keeping with her nature and personality, she would try to bring him back. It doesn't make sense for her to "lose the will to live" when she still has much to live for. The Republic she loves is in shambles, the man she loves has potential to return, she has children that could use a mother: there is no reason for her to die.

    From what we've seen, Padme is not the type that takes things lying down; she fights even when there is the slightest chance. She makes the most of that single chance for the sake of the "bigger picture." She could have brought Anakin back if she tried, she could have gotten him to defeat the Emperor. It doesn't make sense for her to "lose the will to live."
  18. Master_Shaitan Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Dec 31, 2004
    star 5
    Thats true. But she knows that at this point he is bad and that his Master is of course evil. The kids would be at risk.

    But I do think thats the point. The point is that the damage to her has been done. Her heart has been broken, everything she worked for has crashed and burned. Anakin turned to save her. She may think that she couldnt help Anakin anymore. She may think that she would be a risk to her children.

    She was pretty much in the centre of everything that went wrong. It has a catastrophic effect on her. There wasn't really anything she could do if she lived. She would only bring danger to her children. And above all this she was simply mortally damaged.

    Could she? She was the reason Anakin turned. She probably thinks, if she did think about it, that she would have a negative effect on Anakin. She knew from the start that she shouldnt have been with him. And look how it ended. I think that her telling kenobi there is good in him is significant. It shows she is passing on her knowledge rather than acting on it. She knows there is nothing she can do.
  19. DARTHCLANDESTINE Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    May 17, 2005
    star 3
    She knows there is nothing she can do

    Im in agreement here, because there was an bond between them (see rumination scene), she says she "knows" there good him, like he felt Padme alive. Ive mentioned this before, but I believe she realizes if she was still alive and be with her children Anakin would sense it. She realizes she better go, otherwise he'll go after her and them. With her dead, this may be only chance for Anakin to see the good in himself. But as long as she was alive, Anakin would sense it.

    It makes sense also that Yoda and Obi Wan decide that the children must be separated so that the Sith (that would mean Vader and the Emperor) would not sense their presence.

    Padme realizes that she was involved in Anakin's turn (and obviously everything that preceded it). So there it is. The bravest thing for her to do was give up her life. That was the only way. She let go, like Obi Wan himself did, when he stopped fighting Vader more than 20 years later.








  20. leia_naberrie Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Sep 10, 2002
    star 4
    Is there really any where in the book or the movie that says that Padme willed herselt to die?
  21. Master_Shaitan Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Dec 31, 2004
    star 5
    I think the "lost the will to live" part is vital here. That to me is telling us that Padme realises, consciously or subconsciously, that she no longer has a purpose and that, it would be a greater service to let herself go.

    She was dying of a broken heart and inability to adapt but she could have fought it. She simply "lost the will to live". That tells me that she was letting go.

    At face value we question why she wouldn't stay alive for her kids.
    But I think its clear that she knows she will be a danger to them.
    She knows that she would only cause more problems with Anakin.
    She knows she has no part to play in resurrecting the Republic.

    Its just her time.
    And IMHO its an act of selflessness and compassion.
  22. Dezdmona Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jun 9, 2005
    star 4
    Please remember that it was the Medical Droid that said she had "lost the will to live".
    The Droid could not come to a better explanation for what was happening to Padmé.
    Obi-Wan makes an interesting comment to Dex in AOTC regarding Droids ability to notice details that seems applicable in this case as well:

    Well, Dex, if droids could think, we wouldn't be here, would we?


    Padmé told Anakin he was breaking her heart, and he was going down a path that she could not follow.
    The reason she went to Mustafar was to verify what OWK had told her, when she had, she took a stand, even though it broke her heart. :(

    I believe it is significant to note that Padmé did not "give up", she "let go" of the symbiotic relationship because she loved Anakin. (She could never love Darth Vader)

    In a symbiont circle, what happens to one will affect the other. (OWK-TPM)
    Remember that "Anakin" was lost to the darkside that day. ;)

    I agree with MS that her act was selfless and compassionate.




  23. Master_Shaitan Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Dec 31, 2004
    star 5
    Good point Dez.
    But do you think that the droid may have been correct in this instance?
  24. Dezdmona Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jun 9, 2005
    star 4
    Perhaps it is a matter of semantics, but my thinking has been that "loosing the will to live" is a more passive act, whereas her "letting go" is more deliberate.
  25. thefreezebreeze Jedi Padawan

    Member Since:
    Jul 28, 2006
    Sorry if I touch on something already said here. I do not have the time to read through the whole thread.
    I like the idea of a symbiotic relationship. I am not sure I agree with the "letting go" thing. I am currently very much in love, and if my partner were to die, I could conceive continuing, but if she were to completely turn on everything "we" beleive in. I am not sure I would have the will to live. So I have always understood Padme losing the will to live. I like the idea that Anakin caused Padme's death. I think it is a perfect example of self-fulfilling prophecy. Anakin saw Padme die in his dreams. So he deviated from his path, his morals, and from everything he believed in to stop that from happening. In a similar fashion to Darth Vader in Episode V trapping Luke by causing prophecies of Leia and Han dying, I think that Palpatine projected misleading prophecies into the force, so that he could bait Anakin with the power to create life. Anakin wanted that power since Ep II. "Someday I will be able to keep people from dying." -Anakin Taking in the fact that Anakin and Padme have a symbiotic relationship, we get this senario: Anakin finds a way to stop Padme from dying, so he completely rejects all that he and Padme had believed in as a couple to learn that power. When this happens, the bond between them is cut off. Anakin survies because of Palpatine's power-to-create-life, and Padme dies because she no longer has the will to live. It may be a little far-fetched, but hey, it's a thought.
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