Symbolism in Attack of the Clones (currently discussing shrouding and obscuring)

Discussion in 'Attack of the Clones' started by Shelley, Jan 13, 2003.

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  1. Jedi_Waster Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Jun 1, 2002
    star 2
    Whatever, it's still a bad story.

    YJ edit: Which has nothing to do with the discussion at hand. Stay on topic.
  2. EmperorNemesis Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Dec 14, 2002
    star 1
    But we don't know if George Lucas has inferred that myth exactly in TPM.

    Fans have misconstrued it.
  3. darthlebowski72 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Oct 5, 2001
    star 5
    I have always thought Shmi was tortured by someone other than the Tuskens. I think the sandpeople just found her mutliated body somewhere and instead of taking her to the human settlements they just stuck her in a tent. it would make sense for Palpatine to set things in motion by killing Shmi though I am not sure if Palpatine actually helped conceive Anakin.

    Shmi's death showed the destruction of a family, a very powerful symbol of evil. What better way to destroy Anakin's goodness than to destroy the good things in his life. Her torture and reckless treatment is another symbol of sadism or compuncture. Whoever did this to Shmi obviously liked what they did and they knew it would disrupt Anakin's force-sensitivity. All of this adds up to the Dark Side's victory over good.

  4. anidanami124 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Aug 24, 2002
    star 6
    I have always thought Shmi was tortured by someone other than the Tuskens.

    In the movie it was said by Cliegg Lars that she was kidnaped by the Tuskens.
  5. EmperorNemesis Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Dec 14, 2002
    star 1
    I think the Tuskens were manipulated by someone into Shmi's abduction.

    Only that would give deeper significance to the scene.
  6. Falls_the_Shadow Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    May 31, 2002
    star 3
    Hell_Sith666 wrote: "Hey Shells, ever seen The Searchers? good movie, you should check it out.

    The destruction of the Lars Homestead in ANH is taken directly from this movie. Certain elements of Anakin's search for Shmi also borrow from this film.

    Does anyone have screenshots from the camp scene in The Searchers to compare with the screenshot of Anakin and the dying Shmi?

    The Searchers link at Internet Movie Data Base

    Tagline: he had to find her... he had to find her...

    --------------
    Your screenname, Hell_Sith666, is a good example of the mix of symbolism between the GFFA and here. Interesting screenname.


  7. anidanami124 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Aug 24, 2002
    star 6
    I think the Tuskens were manipulated by someone into Shmi's abduction.

    Only that would give deeper significance to the scene.


    No not really. If you were to read the bio about the Tuskens you will find that they kidnap people a lot. They saw Shmi and kidnapped her.

    The other reason they don't need to have been manipulated is because if Palpatine did that and Anakin knew and still joined him it would would ruin Anakin's redpemiton in ROTJ.
  8. anidanami124 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Aug 24, 2002
    star 6
    Whatever, it's still a bad story.

    Jedi_Waster is there any thing you would like to add to this thread. Is there any thing you saw in the scene that has symbolism.


  9. EmperorNemesis Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Dec 14, 2002
    star 1
    Are you the police?

    People are still allowed to express their thoughts I believe, if their not flaming.

    Anyways about Shmi's death, Anakin doesn't need to know. Neither do the Tuskens. Palpatine probably used intermediaries, buffers. Palpatine has a lot of buffers. Do not rely too much on your books.

    Oh yeah, Shmi and Palpatine represent the polar opposites of the spectrum.

    Plus, If you look at the picture closely, it looks more like Shmi is in a native American wigwam or tipee or whatever you call it. The wooden Structure she has been put on, does not resemble a cross. More like the prarie structures in the mid-west in 1800's.

    Thus, I believe the earth or environmental intonations are intentionally meant here.
  10. Shelley Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Sep 9, 2001
    star 5
    Whatever, it's still a bad story.

    You aren't on topic, Jedi_Waster.
  11. EmperorNemesis Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Dec 14, 2002
    star 1
    Shelley what do you think of my postulations regarding the Symboliisms of Shmi's death?
  12. DamonD Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Nov 22, 2002
    star 6
    Anakin up on that ledge, wow, what symbolic pictures.

    To stay in the Light or descend down into the Dark - but in this case, his feelings for someone drag him down into the Dark.

    Some of the symbolism in SW is accidental, some is intended. It's fun to try to see which is which.
  13. The_Abstract Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jul 16, 2002
    star 4
    Thanks for those pics cbjedi.

    If you're going to take shots from other movies, I say take them from the best around.

    :D


    I didn't expect so much turmoil in this thread, but it seems we can't be academic about this movie at all, because the PT is so "terrible". It has no redeeming value whatsoever.



    Anyway, thanks to everybody else who made positive contributions so far, and were open to finding some meaning in these very cool movies.
  14. DarthBreezy Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Jun 4, 2002
    star 6
    Yes, thank you cbjedi... I haven't seen "The Searchers" although I have heard of numerous comparasims...

    There was a general AOTC symbolism thread at one point (unfortunately, it went down in flames) and since we have pretty througholy discussed that short moment in the last few pages, would it be alright to expand on this and make this thread an "AOTC symbolism 2.0"?
    This topic has attracted some very thoughtful post and I would love to see it continue...
  15. DarthBreezy Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Jun 4, 2002
    star 6
    (Missed the Edit option by a hairsbreath)

    I Pm'd Shelly and Yoda Jeff... hopefully this will come to pass...
  16. DarthBreezy Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Jun 4, 2002
    star 6
    What other scenes would be good for discussion?
    the Arena sequence has been brought up... the significance of the placement of the heros... (Anakin placed between the two things that he must eventually choose between...)
    Perhaps we are seeing pictures where there are only ink blots, but why not...
  17. anidanami124 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Aug 24, 2002
    star 6
    What other scenes would be good for discussion?
    the Arena sequence has been brought up... the significance of the placement of the heros... (Anakin placed between the two things that he must eventually choose between...)
    Perhaps we are seeing pictures where there are only ink blots, but why not...


    I would have to think aobut that. Also I wnat to wait to see if YodaJeff renames the thread.
  18. Armaria Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    May 5, 2002
    star 1
    I do not think there was symbolism in Shmi's death, no. I think it was just a scene where Shmi died and Anikan showed his true colors.
    *shrugs*
    But you go ahead and think whatever you want.
  19. Darth_Tim Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Feb 26, 2002
    star 4
    I don't think Palpy had a hand in it. I think the story of Anakin's fall loses something if Palpatine is behind EVERYTHING. Part of Palpatine's genius is in maximizing his gain from the situation, even if what happens doesn't go according to plan, and sometimes, fate can be cruel.

    So IMHO part of it is Palpatine's manipulations, but the other part has more to do with how Anakin handles the cards he is dealt. If Palpatine were behind the Tusken slaughter it would merely be an excuse to foist all the blame on him and say Anakin wasn't responsible for his own demise.

    Cliegg pretty much told it like it was...the Tuskens were fierce, warlike nomads, nasty confrontations with the settlers happened from time to time, and a lone woman out picking mushrooms was no doubt a very tempting target.

    -Tim

  20. anidanami124 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Aug 24, 2002
    star 6
    What other scenes would be good for discussion?
    the Arena sequence has been brought up... the significance of the placement of the heros... (Anakin placed between the two things that he must eventually choose between...)
    Perhaps we are seeing pictures where there are only ink blots, but why not...


    Well there is symbolism in that scene in the fact that Anakin is in the middle. He's a Jedi but he is alos someone who is in love. You put him in the middle because he really is in the middle. Does he choose the Jedi or Padme?
  21. JediGaladriel Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Sep 3, 1999
    star 5
    I think the series has more to owe and is influenced by the pulp sci-fi of the 30's to 50's rather than Mythology

    I'm a bit late, but I'll answer anyway:

    Campbell's point--and I agree--is that all these stories ultimately draw on older sources. It's largely unconscious in the old serials. What Lucas did was make a conscious effort to recognize the pattern and highlight it, which is what brings SW above the level of these progenitors.

    It doesn't have to be exactly the same but I think it has to resemble it more. If Shmi was actually bound away from the cross with her head foward, it would make for great symbolism. But it looks too different IMO.

    Not really--crucifixion imagery can be as simple as a windowpane (if you haven't read My Name is Asher Lev, which deals with just such a crucifixion painting--once with a windowshade and once with some telephone poles off to the side, I really recommend it... it's a good novel and it goes into the process of visual referencing).

    What do you think of my clone symbolism theory?

    I think it ties in well with the messy deaths of women, and the unnaturalness that's coming... but the Skywalker family is set in opposition to the cloning, not as an example of it. Anakin is the diametric opposite of Boba.
  22. JediGaladriel Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Sep 3, 1999
    star 5
    So your saying Anakin is the Anti-Christ? That's pretty deep symbolism for a kids flick.

    Kids' stories tend to have a rather deep symbolism--fairy tales particularly lend themselves to this sort of critical analysis. (If you're sick of Campbell's Jungian analysis, check out Bruno Bettelheim's Uses of Enchantment for a Freudian take on several fairy tales... but only if you have a rather strong stomach. ;))

    Are you the police?

    He's not; I am. So is YodaJeff. YJ said to stay on topic. I'm re-iterating it. The thread is for academic criticism--analyzing literary meanings--not for bashing. Or "gushing," for that matter, but it certainly presupposes that the movies are worth the discussion; if you don't find them worth the discussion, then... well, it's not a question of being kicked off the thread, but one of wondering why you'd be interested in it in the first place. You're expected to stay on topic and respect the purpose of the thread, and you find the thread purposeless, it becomes a bit difficult to do that.
  23. EmperorNemesis Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Dec 14, 2002
    star 1
    DarthBreezy, JediGaladriel what do you think of my theory?

    Now that we're wrapping up this discussion we should come to a solid conclusion on this.

    I think it works quite well in a Star Wars environment.
  24. winter_chili Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Nov 6, 2002
    star 5
    thinking of yodas whole thing about were things leave it seems like crying would lead to the dark side because you have given in to your emotions and let them control you, in tpm he does cry and remains good but in aotc he cries and turns because he follows his emotion or maybe jake loyd just sucks at acting
  25. JediGaladriel Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Sep 3, 1999
    star 5
    Your theory of Anakin and the twins being clones?

    Like I said, I do think that the appearance of clones is tied in with the death of the feminine and the organic in the galaxy, but the Skywalker family, being in direct opposition to that, simply can't.

    Anakin is a child of a Mystery, produced by the supernatural; Boba and the Clones are children of technology, produced by the subnatural. The twins are an expression of love (and thereby save the galaxy, Luke particularly through an act of self-sacrifice and redemption--of compassion, which seems to be defined here as Anakin defines it), while the Clones are an expression of aggression, anger, and deception (and thereby destroy the social fabric of the galaxy).

    They're related, but related as opposites.

    thinking of yodas whole thing about were things leave it seems like crying would lead to the dark side because you have given in to your emotions and let them control you, in tpm he does cry and remains good but in aotc he cries and turns because he follows his emotion or maybe jake loyd just sucks at acting

    There's absolutely no reason to bash Jake Lloyd in a thread of this nature. My personal feeling is that child actors should always be immune, but I won't enforce that elsewhere. Jake Lloyd's performance was quite adequate to discuss the meaning of Yoda's approach. The point is knowing what is portrayed, and that came across quite clearly.

    The Jedi are concerned with people being ruled by their emotions, not with people having them. It doesn't say that tears are forbidden, but that you don't choose your actions based on grief. It would be all right for Anakin to cry over his mother's death, I think (though the Jedi exercise a level of emotional control that would make it uncomfortable for them to witness it), and I expect they would expect him to feel anger (after all, Yoda is always telling people to be mindful of their feelings). What he can't do is act from that anger. He'd have to wait for it to pass, then decide rationally what needs to be done. It's rather clear that what happens in the Tusken village is a spur-of-the-moment thing; if Anakin had left and brought his mother's body back to the farm, spent the night cooling down, and then decided what to do the next day, I sincerely doubt he would have said, "I think I should go massacre the whole tribe." The Jedi way is to wait for the storm to pass and make decisions from the calm. Of course, they need to make decisions quickly, so they school themselves to weather emotional storms quickly if they must face them, and avoid them when at all possible.

    At any rate, that's not really a question of symbolism; that's theme. Symbolism would be images used to illuminate the theme.

    There are two chaotic, storm-like environments in AotC. The first, of course, is Kamino, with its storm-tossed ocean. The second is the dangerous asteroid field around Geonosis. (Yes, it's not exactly a storm, but it's a chaotic natural environment, and is used the same way in ESB.) Anyway, the plot parallels between Kamino and Geonosis are obvious--they're Palpatine's little test planets to get the war cooking--and I think the violent environments, one of "earth," one of water, really symbolise what's happening in the galaxy. (As opposed to the relatively peaceful desert imagery of Tatooine, which never changes, and the absolutely peaceful water of Naboo.)

    Kind of interesting, in context, that Anakin never sets foot on Kamino and we never see him go through the asteroids... I guess you don't need external storms when the internal ones are so violent.
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