Symbolism of Babies' Eyes

I'd say that wasn't intentionally so it wasn't done to make
one see symbolism. I just think Luke was asleep and Leia
wasn't lol.
Sometimes a cigar is just a cigar.

 

I believe it was said and can be confirmed with anyone who has a dvd version or goes to see it again that the eyes are not open until Leia is given to Bail's wife which negates 99% of this thread.

 

People will look anywhere for something.

 

On the side, I keep seeing this matter pop up several times, and I never understood why, so I might as well ask here: What's the deal with the importance of either of the babies being born first? Apparently, a lot of people expected Leia to be born first. Why? Is it an EU thing? Apparently, it was a rather shocking revelation for many that Luke turned out to be born first. Why is that? What's the importance of their order of birth? I'm curious.

 

FROM THE EU:

The death of Amidala had been something that had always haunted Leia since she could speak. Obi-Wan had told Bail Organa that it was normal. That Jedi children could usually remember small things from their early childhood but it was always usually something they'd grow up to forget. Unless they were unusually strong in the Force and depending on the circumstances under which they were born. This ?Force memory? could induce memories from the beginning of your life until your death. It was no surprise to Obi-Wan that Leia still remembered Amidala. She must have very powerful Force memory, Obi-Wan reasoned. Obi-Wan clearly remembered the very second Luke and Leia were born. Luke born first, with his eyes closed. Then came Leia, born with her eyes wide open, staring out at her mother, with Amidala smiling at her. The smile. One that Luke missed, being born with his eyes closed, but one that Leia saw. Obi-Wan would never forget that smile, he thought to himself. So much emotion in it. A smile that was very beautiful, but sad. And sincere. All at the same time. Leia even started speaking of Padme before the age of two-years. Thirteen years later and Leia spoke of her mother as if it was only yesterday that she had died. But Leia often wondered to herself, ?If she died when I was very young, how could I remember her so fondly?? She had no idea that she'd been only a baby when Padme passed. A young infant only minutes new to the galaxy when Padme Naberrie Amidala had passed from her life. Queen Amidala of Naboo. Not Queen Organa of Alderaan. Leia had discovered her adoption some years ago, but he had suspected that she had always known on some level as a young girl. She didn?t really look like either of her parents. After all, the mother she remembered often was Padme. Leia called her other mother Queen, when speaking of her. Not Mother, or Mommy. Leia felt compelled not to call her this title for some unknown reason, as if her heart told her that the title already belonged to someone else whom she did not know in person, but wished she did. Oh If only she had gotten to know Padme Amidala! They would?ve been perfect for each other. Leia had known that Bail Organa had never married more than once. He had chosen not to remarry.

 

FROM THE EU:

The death of Amidala had been something that had always haunted Leia since she could speak. Obi-Wan had told Bail Organa that it was normal. That Jedi children could usually remember small things from their early childhood but it was always usually something they'd grow up to forget. Unless they were unusually strong in the Force and depending on the circumstances under which they were born. This ?Force memory? could induce memories from the beginning of your life until your death. It was no surprise to Obi-Wan that Leia still remembered Amidala. She must have very powerful Force memory, Obi-Wan reasoned. Obi-Wan clearly remembered the very second Luke and Leia were born. Luke born first, with his eyes closed. Then came Leia, born with her eyes wide open, staring out at her mother, with Amidala smiling at her. The smile. One that Luke missed, being born with his eyes closed, but one that Leia saw. Obi-Wan would never forget that smile, he thought to himself. So much emotion in it. A smile that was very beautiful, but sad. And sincere. All at the same time. Leia even started speaking of Padme before the age of two-years. Thirteen years later and Leia spoke of her mother as if it was only yesterday that she had died. But Leia often wondered to herself, ?If she died when I was very young, how could I remember her so fondly?? She had no idea that she'd been only a baby when Padme passed. A young infant only minutes new to the galaxy when Padme Naberrie Amidala had passed from her life. Queen Amidala of Naboo. Not Queen Organa of Alderaan. Leia had discovered her adoption some years ago, but he had suspected that she had always known on some level as a young girl. She didn?t really look like either of her parents. After all, the mother she remembered often was Padme. Leia called her other mother Queen, when speaking of her. Not Mother, or Mommy. Leia felt compelled not to call her this title for some unknown reason, as if her heart told her that the title already belonged to someone else whom she did not know in person, but wished she did. Oh If only she had gotten to know Padme Amidala! They would?ve been perfect for each other, relevent on nearly all their ways.

 

where did you get that from...
it's beautiful

 

If this was a "Matrix" movie, then perhaps I'd agree it was intentional, but my personal opinion is that this is just a coincidence...

 

Nice post on Page 4, YYZ-2112. I agree that Leia's rememberance in RotJ is doubly tragic because she doesn't know the truth and the next moment the world is ripped from under her. Yet she remains strong! What a girl!

And to everyone else: why not go back and see RotS again, boost the Box Office a bit and see when exactly Leia's eyes are deliberately open in a close-up shot of hers?

When she is on Alderaan and looking at her adoptive Mother!

 

Regardless of whether in 2005 Lucas was intentionally trying to tie Leia to her birth mom, clearly the story as originally written it for ROTJ did not contemplate the dying at birth scene:

From the ROTJ official script (but not in the movie):
BEN (continuing his narrative)
"When your father left, he didn't know your
mother was pregnant. Your mother and I knew
he would find out eventually, but we wanted
to keep you both as safe as possible, for as
long as possible. So I took you to live with
my brother Owen on Tatooine... and your mother
took Leia to live as the daughter of Senator
Organa, on Alderaan."

The script dialogue of the scene where Leia describes her "Real Mother" to Luke is largely as in the movie. Bottom line, Lucas should have had Padme go into exile with Bail Organa; for whatever reason he felt she had to die.

Ben is not "lying" here, just as he wasn't "lying" when he told Luke that his father wanted him to have his lightsaber. I could be wrong, but my understanding is that when Lucas wrote ANH, he hadn't decided that Vader was Luke's father. At the time of ROTJ Lucas thought that Owen was OB1's brother. Plot hole's and discontinuities are ok--they don't take away from the movies. To think that Lucas had it all figured out from the start is silly. Read some of the early scripts for ROTJ. They are crazy (eg, Yoda's force ghost battling the Emperor over lava).

 

I just found my old novels and annotated screenplays from the early 80's. I'll never sell them or get rid of them.

Long live the continuity errors and problems. Definitely miss the days when Obi-Wan and Owen were real blood brothers!!! LOL

 

Went to see RotS yesterday and looked at the entire scene carefully. On Polis Massa, neither twins' eyes are open. Padme actually briefly touches Luke after his birth. When Leia is born, Padme barely names her and dies. Leia is not even close to Padme, and is bundled in the midwife droid's arms and never once "looks" at Padme. Luke is physically close to Padme's face the whole time, because Obi-Wan is holding him and standing right there!

Leia has her eyes open and stares at Breha Organa on Aldreaan.
Luke's eyes are closed when Beru takes him from Obi-Wan on Tatooine.

Draw your own conclusions!

 

For some reason, I always thought that Leia had been born first. That's probably EU stuff anyways, but did anyone remember reading in one of the novels that she was older than Luke?

 

Luke is born first. http://img175.echo.cx/img175/7533/pdvd0358an.jpg
Padme caresses Luke. http://img175.echo.cx/img175/7130/pdvd0364qy.jpg

Leia is born second as Obi-Wan, holding Luke, stands next to Padme. http://img175.echo.cx/img175/6078/pdvd0469ac.jpg

Leia with wide-open eyes http://img175.echo.cx/img175/1835/pdvd0518pe.jpg
with her new parents on Alderaan http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v508/SnakePlisken/DaughterOfASith.jpg

 

The symbolism might not have been planned, but it's interesting to think about.

BTW, has anyone else got the impression that the baby, with eyes open, looked like ANH Leia; and that same baby, with eyes closed, resembled ANH Luke? There was something, perhaps in the big brown eyes, perhaps in the lil' pout...

Or else I'm just imagining things, bah.

(And that baby is so cute it hurts. )

 

IF that excerpt from something EU was true then it would explain why Leia remembers her mother; but seeing as how Padme was close to Luke but never close to Leia it should be Luke who remembers atleast something of his mother. Second Leia says her mother was "kind" how exactly would she know that? She would know she was beautiful and possibly sad but not kind. And the reason I thought Leia was older was because she seemed older than LUke in ANH; it most likely has to do with Leia being royalty and a politician and LUke just being a sheltered farm boy.

 

i think that was just a coincidence

 

Another thing I noticed--the baby Obi-Wan is holding (is it still Luke? I wasn't sure if he had brought Leia over at this point), starts to cry as soon as Padme dies. Like they knew what had happened.

And I'm so glad this thread exists--I noticed Leia was wide awake and Luke was asleep at the end of the movie, and began to fear for my sanity for noticing these things.

 

SW Exegesis: How does Leia remember Padme?

Episode III reveals that Padme dies of a broken heart shortly after the birth of the twins. So how can her daughter, Leia, have memories of her more than 20 years later?

It's worth noting that the film doesn't get specific about the time frame between the birth and mother's death. It could be minutes, it could be hours. I think it's reasonable to say that the intent is less than 24 hours, since it is inter-cut with the re-construction of Anakin. By the time the Vader suit is on, Padme is dead and Anakin's medical needs seem pretty urgent. Suffice to say that regardless of a timeframe or minutes or hours, it seems fast for Leia to have made memories.

Yes, Leia's talking about Padme
I've seen it suggested that Leia is speaking of her adopted mother (the Queen of Alderaan, Bail's wife) rather than Padme. Let's look at the exchange...

LUKE: Leia... do you remember your mother? Your real mother?
LEIA: Just a little bit. She died when I was very young.

Asking someone if they remember their real mother is really gutsy, unless you've had previous conversations establishing that they are adopted. In that context, the "your real mother" clarification definitely means biological mother.

If they hadn't previously discussed it, Leia would have replied, "How did you know I was adopted?" (assuming Leia knows), or "What do you mean my real mother? I have only one mother."

Besides, if it's not Padme then this exchange has no dramatic meaning.

Images and Feelings
So, what does Leia claim she can remember?

LUKE: What do you remember?
LEIA: Just images, really. Feelings.
LUKE: Tell me.
LEIA: She was very beautiful. Kind, but sad.

It is certainly common for every day people to describe their earliest memories in terms of emotions and images. These impressions may or may not be accurate, but feel real. Typically specific lasting memories are not formed until a few years into life, but there are exceptions. This may or may not be true in the Star Wars universe.

While it is in no way critical to this discussion, nor can it be backed up by movie evidence, it is even possible that Bail at some point showed Leia a photograph of her biological mother. It is commonplace for the brain to mix memories of images with memories of the actual event.

Memories or Visions?
Yoda tells Luke, "Through the Force, things you will see. Other places. The future... the past. Old friends long gone."

The movies imply that Leia is Force sensitive. It is certainly possible that while growing up, Leia received visions of her mother through the Force. Visions of the past, precisely as Yoda describes.

Notice that Luke's Force vision of the future also came in images and feelings, "I saw a city in the clouds" and "They were in pain".

Pre-Birth Connection
It is also possible the Leia's impressions of her mother formed before her birth. What can the films tell us about this?

Yoda says of the Force, "Life creates it, makes it grow. Its energy surrounds us and binds us. Luminous beings are we, not this crude matter. You must feel the Force around you. Here, between you, me, the tree, the rock. Yes, even between the land and the ship."

Yoda is certainly not placing the burden of conscience or will, or even sentience, on the connections the Force will make. Life-to-life seems to be the only requirement. (Are rocks alive?) A mother-daughter binding in the Force existed in some form.

It is inconclusive as to whether the general connection in the Force of all things is enough for specific awareness or not. Certainly Padme is not aware of both twins. Then again, Padme is not portrayed as a Force user, so we can't necessarily expect her to feel these Force connections.

Qui-Gon explains to Anakin, "Midi-chlorians are a microscopic life form that resides within all living cells and communicates with the Force." Again, this is a clear description of the nature of the communication and connection in the Force to be an involuntary one, happening without need of will or consciousne

 

I don't know why, but this post gives me the creeps.

 

WOW!!! Thanks for that red. That was actually pretty insightful. I personally think that nothing is a coincidence in the Star Wars Universe. i am too much of a fan to think or beleive that something was an accident. I think that being a true fan and wanting to beleive what i want to beleive is the only way that my questions are going to be answered. Maybe GL does that so the fans can come up with their own explanations so that they can spend hours on a certain website reading about his films! LOL!

Besides, it's the freaken' force!
Yes Leia remembers her mother, her REAL mother.