Symbolism of the scenes between Padme and Anakin

Discussion in 'Attack of the Clones' started by SmoovBillyDee, Aug 30, 2002.

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  1. DarthBreezy Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Jun 4, 2002
    star 6
    I don't know WHAT happened but the link to Endgames is NOW corrected in my sig...

    I don't know WTF happened and why I couldn't get it right...
  2. PadmeLeiaJaina Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    May 23, 2002
    star 6
    Naw Ibo

    What makes the moral path easy? The moral path is difficult, it's the path of the dark side which is the easy path. Oh sure once you get there it's not so nice and you suffer for it, but what makes it so enticing is the fact that it's easier than the moral path to take. Luke's path was not "the easiest, purest of roads (such as Lukes)", that is the more difficult road to take. That is why it was so inspiring to Anakin to see Luke choose it.

    Good point.
  3. jedi-ES Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jun 7, 2002
    star 4
    In regards to the forbidden fruit, yes in one way it can be seen that the fruit represents the decision that will lead to their downfall. But there is another to see it, as I tried to explain earlier.

    The sharing of the fruit is allowing Anakin in particularly, to have knowledge and experience of something that he would never have as a traditional Jedi. This knowledge - which essentially is Love itself, is what in ROTJ brings him back from the dark side. If he did not "take the forbidden fruit" he would never have a knowledge or understanding of such a deep love for someone else. That love, which specifically is for Padme, will be transferred to Luke in the OT and it is this love that will reemerge in DV and bring about his rebirth as Anakin in the final moments of ROTJ.

    So in one sense, depending upon your p-o-v, you could say that the forbidden fruit symbolizes both his fall and his resurrection.
  4. Undomiel Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    May 17, 2002
    star 4
    PLJ,

    I STILL NEED YOUR EMAIL ADDRESS. *falls of her chair in peals of laughter*
  5. esd1998 Jedi Padawan

    Member Since:
    Jun 3, 2002
    PLJ, you didnt' say anything about the love profession scene or the wedding scene!!

    The marriage is without GL's clunky dialogue and is PURELY visual, the sun setting into a time of darkness on these lovers lives. This is the last, and also most beautiful light this couple will know. The lovers are hand in (mechanical) hand looking into one anothers eyes. The look on Anakin's face is one of sheer joy - he does not think of the repercussions, only that he now is whole, he has the woman he has been dreaming of for ten years in his arms forever. He is the emotional one, as has been mentioned.
    Indeed, the look on Padme's face is worried, almost panicky, and as they move in to kiss, becomes nothing other than desperate. She needs him and she loves him, but deep deep down she knows that this will be their end, but she gives in because she has no other choice.
    Their kiss mirrors their relationship to the present - tentative at first, then as destiny and desire sets in, they surrender fully, losing the world around them, becoming centered in each other.
    The costuming (black for him, white for her) is a less than subtle hint at things to come.

    When they are waiting for their execution, and Padme starts to speak, she is afraid to look at him, embarrassed that she has fought the inevitable for so long. She glances at him and sees that he is focussed fully on her, not fearing the future. She is tired of fighting - fighting politically and fighting her feelings for Anakin. She wants him and as it is the hour of her death, she will succumb. NP delivers the lines well here, convincing us that she actually is NOT afraid to die - life has been pure torture while she tries to deny that she loves Anakin. She would rather die than continue to do so. Now that she has confessed her feelings, she is ready to fight for her life - so she can spend it with him.
    Because she knows of the pin she has in her belt that she will use to pick her handcuffs. She WANTS to tell him she loves him...she is desperate for the excuse to tell him.
    They lean in to kiss each other just as they are being taken to their execution - their relationship will lead to their downfall, just as Padme predicted. They are reluctant and slow to pull away, but in the end they must, to save each other. The harsh light blinds them momentarily as they recover from their moment of passion and truth.

  6. Undomiel Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    May 17, 2002
    star 4
    ESD 1998,

    Very nicely said!
  7. PadmeLeiaJaina Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    May 23, 2002
    star 6
    esd1998

    Well I can't be the only one posting in depth analysis of every scene w/ Ani and Padme. What fun would that be? :p

    Lovely descriptions of the 2 scenes. Well done.

    I have to say, I have never found Lucas's dialogue to be clunky or bothersome. Personally I love the dialogue in Clones. THe film is set in a more "civilized age," and it is a time of courtly love where women are referred to as "M'lady." The dialogue should be more formal- like old Ben talks in the OT.

    Many people hate the dialogue in the fireplace scene- I think it's brilliant. HC delivers his lines in the most fascinating way- he is completely submissive ("I will do anything you ask") and yet his speech is measured, deliberate, Vaderish.

    When you get to see the scene again listen to how HC speaks, it's wonderfully chilling. The line that always got my attention as seeming a bit off is "You are in my very soul, tormenting me." He waits a beat before saying "tormenting." If you listen to it, and think about it, now think of Vader saying "You don't know the Power of the dark side." The lines are spoken with the same rhythem. It is a wonderful case of showing us, not only is this handsome young man going to become Vader, but that Vader was once a handsome young man, who willingly put his heart on his sleeve, to be stomped on by the love of his life.

    The dialogue in the fireplace scene is reminiscent of I many medieval courtships and mythic tales. Ani's speech is mirrored after many of them (the one in particular is escaping my mind at the moment.) After watching the scene repeatedly, it doesn't bother me. I love the dialogue in fact. Some say it's out of place, to me it's not. It's simply a young man who's dreamed his whole life of spilling his heart out to the love of his life- he probably had his speech rehearsed.

  8. Pooja Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    May 25, 2002
    star 6
    I was just glad to see Anakin and Padme to get together. Waited 3 years for that kiss.
  9. SmoovBillyDee Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jul 2, 2002
    star 4
    PLJ

    I totally agree with your take on that dialouge. The fact that everyone referred to Padme as M'Lady was entirely appropriate to me. She was the royalty, the person of the higher class. Anakin was of the serving class, the Jedi, who basically had nothing. This is a common theme in love stories, particularly from the Age of Chivalry.

    Hayden's lines were delivered perfectly. There was a reason that he won that role over so many other hopefuls. That is, he was able to nail Vader's persona in his speech. It's really very chilling to listen to.

    As for his speech to Padme, I found it all too close to reality. How many times do we recite something like that to ourselves and imagine it to be perfect? Yet, when the time comes and we deliver it, things never pan out as we had imagined it. Anakin probably thought that Padme would collapse into his arms and they would "live happily ever after."

    The dialogue is well planned out and carries so much more meaning that it looks to on the surface.
  10. esd1998 Jedi Padawan

    Member Since:
    Jun 3, 2002
    The fireplace dialogue is strong reminiscient of medieval love affairs between knights and ladies of the court (guineviere and lancelot for example). The fireplace talk is exactly one of those conversations...their relationships were forbidden because the guineviere was supposed to be loyal to her husband and the knight to arthur, his king. Eventually the king finds out about it and dies - guineviere becomes a nun and lancelot chastely lives out his days wishing he had done the right thing. Anakin and Padme serve not a king, but a republic. when the republic discovers their disloyalty, i can't imagine what will happen.

    as a side note, i love how HC delivers the "you are in my very soul" line. it's downright fantastic - gives me butterflies.
    when i said clunky dialogue, i really was simply referring to the critics et al's take on it, not my own. i should have put quotation marks around it. my bad.
  11. PadmeLeiaJaina Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    May 23, 2002
    star 6
    esd1998

    All is forgiven :D There are those though who believe the dialogue in that scene to be just aweful. I just love Anakin's whole speech there. My favorite of all lines though, is just Anakin in a nutshell "You are asking me to be rational, that is something I cannot do."

    Anakin doesn't think clearly, he doesn't think of the consequences, he lives entirely in the moment. Which of course is his problem entirely and will end up having things go down the drain in the next installment. Anakin's theme song really should be "duel of fates" because he swings from one emotion to the next, anger to love, pain to joy. The boy just experiences it all, completely. That's probably why he's my favorite of all SW characters. He embraces everything, and unfortunately, will end up wallowing in his fear, anger and pain for a long time.
  12. AUNTIE_JEDI Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jul 30, 2002
    star 4
    PadmeLeiaJaina: I cannot find words to express how stunning your analyses have been. I could have been written by me but you certainly did it better!!! Ten points to you :)

    What do you think about scene "Attachment is forbidden..."? I think it is one of the best expressed scenes in the whole movie. Anakin/Hayden is really good. When Padmé asks "Are you allowed to love?" And then his answer. His mouth is speaking words but the way he looks Padmé and his trembling and somehow smothered voice tells so much of that emotional confusion inside him. He flashes small uncertain smiles trying to convince someone (himself) that he accepts the situation. Compassion is something to a Jedi but Anakin's expressions talk about a love from man to woman. No doubt that he is attached to Padmé. I have seen the film now ten times and my heart is aching every time I'm watching this scene.

    Please comments...
  13. DarthBreezy Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Jun 4, 2002
    star 6
    The "Attachment, is forbiddon..." diologue...Poor Ani, he sounds like a schoolboy reciting by wrote (sp) (Think Alice in wonderland, when she has to recite "How doth the little 'crocodile'") You get the impression that that particular lesson has been painfully drilled into him, day in day out, even more so than other Padawans... (Can you hear Obi-wan's voice? "Anakin, what does the Jedi Code say about attachments?" anytime he voices concern about someone or something? *shakes head sadly*)
    That embarrased smile that says "I realllllly like you... *hint hint hint* and you're asking me about love? You're looking at me with those big brown eyes, turning me into a babbleing idiot and asking me about LOVE?" *DB giggles, remebering what it's like being on Ani's side of things... 'cept his eyes were also blue... :p * It seems that to him, her asking THAT particular question is SUCH an IN!!! If he can only find a way to capitalse on it... *laughs* Ahhhhhh yes... *sigh* :p
  14. Falls_the_Shadow Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    May 31, 2002
    star 3
    The Greek Myth of Persephone and Hades also had a forbidden fruit.

    Persephone, "the young goddess who is enamored of flowers and cavorting with her friends [Meadow Picnic] is transformed into the wife of the stern and imperious Hades in the Hymn. This is accomplished through one significant event: once in the Underworld, Hades offers Persephone the seeds of the pomegranate, which she accepts. The act of ingesting pomegranate seeds symbolizes the consummation of their relationship."
    Persephone in Myth

    Of course, this isn't just a copy and paste of the Perephone myth. Padme is the older and wiser of the two, yet she selects the lake country, their activities, her dress and she chooses to flirt with this unstable, overgrown child. I saw a signature around here somewhere that fits her: "Old enough to know better, still too young to care."

    On the sun symbollism:
    "But you can't stop the change, Ani, any more than you can stop the suns from setting."

    -Shmi, The Phantom Menace

    This Son of Suns does not heed this lesson so he will break himself and all around him. The sun is setting on this old hope. The visuals support it.

    Compare:
    The sunset of the Antebellum (before war) Old Republic and the Jedi.

    [image=http://64.227.26.45/Grilled-Sarlacc/s/i/e20.jpg]

    The sunset of the Antebellum Tara:

    [image=http://www.creekland.org/ParntStdnt/Tara.jpg]



  15. pandawan Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Jul 12, 2002
    star 1

    Yes and unfortunately if NP had made her emotions more obvious, everyone would bash her for overacting and being overly dramatic.

    I'm truly sorry, but given this position, there is no way one can be critical of any performance. I for one am straight-out saying I'd like to have seen more actual emotion, more 'drama' from her. I just don't get this argument...that if people in general say that NP was subtle to the point of no-presence in some aspects of the story, then the only alternative is to be over-dramatic? Why do you think people would bash her for being too out-there if it didn't take 10 viewings to finally see that she was eyeing Anakin with some desire?

    I agree, I love watching SW over and over and catching new aspects of the visuals, or of the dialogue, or of the settings and progression of the story that I didn't initially catch...but I have to maintain that it is absolutely ridiculous to ask a viewer to watch 10 times to catch a central emotion being conveyed by a central player in an important scene.

    I just love reading your (and those of others too!) detailed and lovingly done analyses of the symbolism and the meanings and beauty of the scenes, and the dialogue which I actually don't think is clunky in most places...something you've helped to convince me of. But I can't get past the position that seems to be on offer--it is either subtlety to the point of requiring 10 viewings to catch, or over-acting. There might be some people who have decided to not like the acting in star wars for some reason, but I don't think it's "everybody" by a long shot--and certainly not me!


  16. PadmeLeiaJaina Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    May 23, 2002
    star 6
    Pandawan

    Personally, I don't blame NP for her acting. I blame HC- he's so damned good (and good looking [face_love]) that quite honestly, I really didn't pay much attention to NP in most of the scenes. It wasn't until after I'd finally gotten over my initial fascination w/ HC's performance (by about my 8th- or 9th viewing :p) that I started to really watch Natalie. When I did that, I noticed that really she put a lot of emotion into her lines and scenes. And she did so subtley.

    Maybe she should have been a bit more forceful with her performance- her eyes could have lingered on Ani's strong back on the balcony scene- or in other places she could have expressed more emotion- but I also think that would have gone against Padme's character. Padme has been a very emotionally guarded woman her whole life- being a politician she learned early not to let her true personality show- otherwise she could get stomped on. Padme just had the hardest time reprogramming herself into behaving like a human with Anakin.

    The funny thing is Anakin is 1/2 god- yet he is MORE HUMAN than any person in the PT films. The fact that he so openly and fully embraces his emotions and speaks from his heart. This is what Padme responds to with him.

    I think it was just hard for NP, because HC positively glows and shines in the film. He eclipses her completely. She often stands in his shadow and must work hard to try to get any recognition.

    The good thing is - the way the LS progressed- we got to see a rebirth of Padme. When she declared her love in the face of death- the old stoic Padme has died, which I believe firmly is where her line "I've been dying a little bit since the day you came back into my life" has come from. Padme has recognized that she no longer wants to live w/o love, and wants it all. In the arena when faced with death, Padme uses her mind (lock picking) and suddenly appeared to have picked up a spark in her personality that wasn't there before ("No I call this aggressive negotiations") simply because she has allowed herself to fall in love. She is now a complete person, whereas before she was only 1/2 alive.

    I predict we'll see a different person of Padme in Ep 3. She's going to be the bane of Palpatines existence, because she's got a new fire in her. How will it all end? I have no idea. All I know is, from at least an emotional standpoint, I firmly believe ep 3 will be Padme's film. I think the fact that we have never been given any real sign of how Padme died is going to be crutial for EP 3. Her death/ or apparent death will be as shocking as Vader's confession to Luke in ESB. It will be the key element that will send Anakin over the edge, and close our tale on its tragic note. God 2005 is such a long ways away....
  17. Master_Grover Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Aug 22, 2002
    star 2
    The sharing of the fruit is allowing Anakin in particularly, to have knowledge and experience of something that he would never have as a traditional Jedi. This knowledge - which essentially is Love itself, is what in ROTJ brings him back from the dark side. If he did not "take the forbidden fruit" he would never have a knowledge or understanding of such a deep love for someone else. That love, which specifically is for Padme, will be transferred to Luke in the OT and it is this love that will reemerge in DV and bring about his rebirth as Anakin in the final moments of ROTJ.

    Fantastic explanation, jedi-ES!
  18. jedi-ES Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jun 7, 2002
    star 4
    I agree that Hayden does an absolutely incredible job with an incredibly difficult character. It's one thing to play DV in the whole suit and armor. It's another to play a young man in turmoil, conflict, and confusion. I personally don't think that anyone could have done a better job. And I think one point to make is that he cared. That with his charisma and natural ability produced what we saw.

    I think the biggest problem people have with Natalie stems from the audience not really understanding the character and I think it comes from Natalie's beauty. We are not use to seeing someone with that beauty in positions of power. Our society considers them mutually exclusive areas.

    When the audience sees Padme, first when her ship blows up and then when she enters Palpy's office, she looks stunning. Her hair flows out in such beautiful "twists" when she takes her helmet off and again when she walks into Palpy's office, she looks darn good. I just think that it's hard for the audience to remember that she is a Senator.

    Without that fact in their minds, they don't understand why she acts the way she does. The audience doesn't consciously realize that her whole life has been in public service and she has had no personal life or relationships and she has learned to keep her feelings silent, due to the nature of the political sphere.

    Without that in mind, they see her as a beautiful young woman, who someone is trying to kill. So they don't understand the conflict that is present within her. They think that it is a result of Anakin being a jedi, but it is just as much from her own conditioning throughout her life.

    Just a thought.

    Master-Grover,

    I appreciate the kind words. Just some info from a mix of sources and posters on these threads and my thoughts.


  19. pandawan Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Jul 12, 2002
    star 1
    Jedi-ES,
    that was a very thoughtful analysis of the tricky situation for an actress created by the character of Padme. She has spent all these years supressing her emotions, and the package that this supressed persona comes in being as stunningly gorgeous as it is makes it harder perhaps for the audience to accept, since we so often equate great beauty with more, shall we say,display.
    I just wish NP had shown more of the conflict brewing in her, more of that 'dying a little each day', more of the old suppressed Padme falling away...

    I agree with jedi-ES and PLJ--HC did a fab job with the role, and his performance and his good looks might make it hard to spend much time focused on NP on the first few viewings (at least for those inclined to ogle the boys rather than the girls...)
    Come Novmeber I'll get to watch for more symbolism *and* try to keep a closer eye on NP..
  20. Talz Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Sep 26, 2001
    star 1
    What's this? Intelligent Attack of the Clones discussion? It pleases me greatly to see such a thing exists! :)

    Here are a couple things I noticed in Anakin and Padme's scenes which have not been mentioned in this thread yet.

    1) Anakin's line to Padme, "The thought of not being with you... I can't breathe!"

    As we will, the Padme-less Anakin of the Original Trilogy cannot breathe without the assistance of an artificial lung.

    2) First kiss/Marriage

    The same setting is used for both scenes. I think that the pan back after the kiss and after the marriage are VERY similar shots. Padme says, "I shouldn't have done that..." after their first kiss. The line resonates with that shot after the marriage also, "I shouldn't have done that..."


    I also want to agree with the point someone made earlier about the "Obi-Wan would be grumpy" line during the fruit scene as being interesting because Anakin is doing so many things that Obi-Wan would be grumpy about: using the Force for trivial things, having a romantic dinner with the senator he's supposed to be professionally protected, and pursuing a relationship that run contrary to the teachings of the Jedi Order.
  21. Anakin_Skywalker20 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Nov 16, 2000
    star 5
    Padme... I love you. :p I read your posts. :) I agree!! I agree with the other two too. [face_blush] :) I can't wait for ep3. *sighs* *hugs all*
  22. PadmeLeiaJaina Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    May 23, 2002
    star 6
    Talz

    1) Anakin's line to Padme, "The thought of not being with you... I can't breathe!"

    As we will, the Padme-less Anakin of the Original Trilogy cannot breathe without the assistance of an artificial lung.

    2) First kiss/Marriage

    The same setting is used for both scenes. I think that the pan back after the kiss and after the marriage are VERY similar shots. Padme says, "I shouldn't have done that..." after their first kiss. The line resonates with that shot after the marriage also, "I shouldn't have done that..."


    Excellent observations! That "I can't breath" line does resonate when thinking of Vader doesn't it? It's also interesting to think that any woman would have "haunted" the man who became a monster. It's what I love about that scene so much. It makes Anakin so human, thereby it humanizes Vader.

    For everyone here- they've added 2 lines of dialogue to the DVD film version during the Confession scene. Before Anakin starts to cry Padme says something like "You're only human Ani." And Ani replies "No I am a Jedi, I should have known better."

    Isn't that line an interesting contrast with Luke in ROTJ where he can declare before the Emperor "You've failed your excellency, I am a Jedi, like my father before me." Luke, unlike his father, has nothing to regret in his life. He stared at the precipice of anger and stepped away from it, whereas Anakin took the giant leap.
  23. SmoovBillyDee Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jul 2, 2002
    star 4
    Holy moly, Talz! That observation about Anakin's breathing line is very perceptive. Thank you for pointing that out to me. That was surely deliberate and I would have never noticed it.
  24. Just_A_Slacker Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Aug 4, 2001
    star 4
    Going back to the beginning of this thread, there was mention of fire being used to light the most important scenes in Anakin's life (e.g. Qui Gon's Funeral, the Dinner, etc...) I noticed two scenes were omitted:

    1) Luke in Yoda's hut "auditioning" for Jedi training (TESB)

    2) Luke in the hut again being told the only way he will be a Jedi is to confront Vader again. (ROTJ)

    Going back to this motiff of fire lighting, I think these scenes are important because they represent the beginning of Anakin's redemption via Luke's journey.
  25. Talz Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Sep 26, 2001
    star 1
    It's obvious that the people in this thread have put a lot of thought into Anakin and Padme's relationship. I would like to hear whether or not you think Anakin and Padme's relationship is a healthy one. Is Anakin's live really unconditional as he claims or is he a stalker ("I've thought of you every day since we parted")? Is what they are getting involved in right or should Padme have stuck to her arguments?

    I say the relationship is unhealthy because of Anakin's fixation and attachment problems. In the fireplace scene, the fire and the leather costume seem to represent lust to me and this relationship is built on Anakin's idealization and infatuation with Padme and Padme's "giving in" more than with true, deep love.
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