Symbolism of the scenes between Padme and Anakin

Discussion in 'Attack of the Clones' started by SmoovBillyDee, Aug 30, 2002.

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  1. Lady_Sami_J_Kenobi Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jul 31, 2002
    star 6
    I think I just did retract. Post withdrawn means "retracted." And many people have the book I have. And lots of people don't have DVD players or access to digital movies. So, those people may not see the scene GL has had inserted.

    And they will believe the book to be correct.

    :)
  2. The_Abstract Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jul 16, 2002
    star 4
    Ok, I don't know what book you have, but mine is first edition, so I don't see where there would be a difference.

    Secondly, everyone that does rent or buy the film on VHS/DVD when it comes out will be seeing the same thing, because Lucas is using the Cinema D version w/the added material discussed on this board and Padme taking Anakin's hand.
  3. PadmeLeiaJaina Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    May 23, 2002
    star 6
    Back to the topics onhand.....

    Jedi-ESwrote:

    The only moment where we see any relief or joy in his expressions since he arrives on Tatooine till the end of the movie is at the wedding. If you look at his face, he does smile to her. And I would suggest that what we see in Ep. III is that the moments that he is with Padme, he is calm and generally okay, but when he is away from her, and it doesn't matter who he is with, that he presents a more brooding manner, sadder, and more melancholy. And these expression changes will be a foreshadowing of when Padme dies. When she dies, IMO, that last part of him that died a little with the death of Shmi, will die altogether, and he will turn.

    The light that we all loved so much in Anakin in the first part of AOTC went out at the end of the fireplace scene. As I'd mentioned - this of course is all due to he and Padme partaking of the forbidden fruit. By their willingness to eat the fruit- they gave up their innocence and entered into the uncomfortable adult world of deception.

    For Anakin- after the fireplace scene he valiantly tries to become just Padme's protector. On the balcony- he does use her first name- but he also calls her Senator, which is something he DOES NOT DO at any point earlier in the film. He tries to distance himself from her further on Tatooine. You notice the complete change in his demeanor when he helps her out of the little transport on Tatooine as opposed to his expression at Naboo when helping her out of the boat. He is crushed. Completely. His face is full of pain.

    He even further distances himself by not even introducing her to Owen and Beru.

    However even though he is trying desperately not to love her- he cannot stop. Only she is able to get to his real problem in the Confession scene. She is the first one in his mind in the Foundry and in the Arena. My favorite tiny moment in the film is when they are flying over Geonosis and Padme points at the vents for them to land in. Anakin has this lost little boy-still-in-love with the girl of his dreams expression on his face as he whistfully looks at her before redirecting his attention to the vents and says "That'll do." And that expression returns for a fleeting moment on the Transport when he says "I can't leave her!"

    It is true that the boy we love has vanished before our eyes at the end of AOTC. The smile he gives Padme at their wedding- doesn't completely meet his eyes, the way it did earlier in the film. His own failure on Tatooine and the battles on Geonosis has changed and scarred Anakin badly.

    I too believe that Ani will completely cease to exist once Padme is gone from his life. Anakin feels completely. He does nothing in moderation. If he believes Padme is dead, he will be dead inside. He will then allow hate to consume him entirely. For when he becomes mostly machine- the demigod who embraces his human side more than his god side, will still selfishly hold onto the last shred of emotional feelings he can muster and understand. And that will be hate and anger, because they are easier to hold onto than to forgive and walk the path of righteousness.

    ****************************

    The scene w/ Padme taking Anakin's hand was in the Digital version of the film- not the film versionb (if anyone here has no idea what I'm talking about here- don't even bother reading the rest of this post- somehow you managed to miss how the fim was released this summer.) There are actually many *tiny* scenes that were inserted into the Digital film that do not appear in the film version. GL likes to edit clear up until the last minute. Converting the digital prints to film takes time- he was able to make more last minute alterations to the digital format- because it didn't have the time constraints as converting to film- I think. The result is the Digital format was a bit tidier w/ the changed scene of Padme taking Ani's hand as opposed to it just flexing at his side.

    Both versions of the film were released. Because Lucas loves the digital format of film-making the Digital fo
  4. Lady_Sami_J_Kenobi Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jul 31, 2002
    star 6
    That's good to know. Thank you so much. :)

    I'll have to find a first edition.

    P. S. My "the book, the book, the book," is actually a paraphrased line from another great scifi movie.
  5. DarthBreezy Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Jun 4, 2002
    star 6
    "Lady_Sami_J_Kenobi"
    What in heavens name do you feel you need to "PM a mod" for? Don't antagonise without expecting some back. You make it sound like I've been PM ing you with nasty messages or what not when the ONLY thing I've said to you has been on the PUBLIC boards. Period. No PM's, No e-mail. Nothing. I resent said same inferances and politely ask you to refrain from such thinly veiled accusasions in the future as it's incredible unbecoming.

    *In my case End of discussion*
  6. Lady_Sami_J_Kenobi Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jul 31, 2002
    star 6
    DB,

    What you said comes perilously close to slander. Would you prefer I contact my attorney? PPOR, please.

    P. S. What did I do to you PERSONALLY to merit such an attack? I did nothing to you to merit such a vicious response from you.
  7. ViariSkywalker Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Aug 9, 2002
    star 4
    Beautiful, PLJ. Simply beautiful. I couldn't have said it better. That was an amazing description and I agree with you whole-heartedly. AOTC really makes you watch the OT in, maybe not a new light, but an altered light. I don't say "new" because I, and I think many other people, have always been able to imagine what Anakin Skywalker was like, simply by seeing him for a brief moment in ROTJ. And Anakin of AOTC is very much like the Anakin I'd always imagined. He's good and kind, he has morals and honor. The thing that alters is that before the PT, it was hard to imagine what causes Anakin to fall to the Dark Side. Now we know how his deep love for Padmé and how his mother's death affect him and how they help set up for his fall.
  8. jedi-ES Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jun 7, 2002
    star 4
    PLJ,

    I know that we have discussed this elsewhere and we both agree on what you expounded on, but I think one opinion that I would like to give is that because Anakin is hurting inside, because he really doesn't trust anyone, and lives in isolation, psychologically, except for when he is with Padme, he feels resentment when he is scourned.

    I don't think that he could ever be really mad at Padme, but I think that he knows what she feels inside in the fireplace scene, and the fact that she rejects those feelings, makes him bleed and he harbors a bit of not quite anger, but maybe resentment towards Padme for rejecting him. And maybe that is why he acts towards her the way that he does on Tatooine, till the news of his mother comes out.

    For me, the best example of this is when he doesn't introduce her to Owen and Beru. It seems quite rude actually, but he is pained that she cannot allow herself to follow her feelings, like he does.

    But ultimately, because of this reaction, she pursues him the rest of the movie.

    And I don't think that anyone can discount what she does for him in the Confession scene. She is so important, yet she physically does little in the scene. She knows that his rant at the beginning is from pain more than facts, so she pushes further and pushes again, till he is forced to come clean about what has happened. Only she could have done that. Not Obi-Wan, not Yoda, just Padme. And why?

    Because she loves him.


  9. ViariSkywalker Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Aug 9, 2002
    star 4
    Discussion is wonderful. Nice points jedi-ES!
  10. PadmeLeiaJaina Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    May 23, 2002
    star 6
    Viari

    Now we know how his deep love for Padmé and how his mother's death affect him and how they set help set up for his fall.

    True. I think it's also vitally important that we got to see Anakin completely lose control when his mother died. This is not an accident- or a carelessly entered scene into the film. This is foreshadowing. Not foreshadowing of his turning evil- but of how he reacts when those he loves most are taken away from him. He snaps.

    I personally have this feeling he will know Padme is pregnant- but will never know she gave birth. He will be told and lead to believe she and the baby are dead. If he was unable to save his wife and unborn child- god help the man who stands in the way of his wrath. If he is lead to believe OB1 is responsible- all the more reason for him to go after him and for the infamous duel.

    Why do I theorize this? Well isn't it odd that Anakin is "obsessed with finding young Skywalker" in ESB? If Palpy told him that Padme and the baby were dead, and he was given "proof" of some sort to confirm this- wouldn't that just completely explain how he reacts to everything in the OT from ESB through ROTJ? If he believed his son and wife were dead and then Luke SKYWALKER shows up alive- he will know Palpy betrayed him years ago. He directly disobeys the Emperor and tells him not to kill Luke- but turn him. This of course goes against the Sith's law of only 2 Master and apprentice. He then turns around and offers to Luke the universe- literally.

    It still takes him 2 films to fully realize that holding onto his anger and hate will get him nowhere- because let's face it- he admitted it to himself "He is a slow learner." :p

    Jedi-Es

    Thank you for filling in my holes! :)
  11. Lady_Sami_J_Kenobi Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jul 31, 2002
    star 6
    DB,

    "There there Lady Kenobi, those nice young men in thier clean white coats have your medication all ready for you. "

    This implies that I am crazy. And on the PUBLIC boards. That is basically slander.

    Play your little games with other people, not me.



  12. ViariSkywalker Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Aug 9, 2002
    star 4
    Yes, that's such an awesome theory! I've been bothered by the many people who believe that Vader knows that he has a child he just doesn't know there are twins. I totally don't buy that! It goes against everything...why wouldn't Vader have looked for and found Luke or Leia long ago if he knew he had a child? But then again, won't it be hard for Padmé to be pregnant in Ep. 3 without Anakin knowing? So I really love your theory, PLJ! If Anakin knows Padmé is pregnant, but he thinks the child dies, then it totally lines up with the way he behaves in the OT. Nice explanation!
  13. DarthBreezy Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Jun 4, 2002
    star 6
    The_Abstract: Cinama D is the version being released (with yet more tweaking... the added lines to the confession scene)... Do you think those added scenes are nessisary?

    (For those who don't know there is a bit of added diolgue on the vidio/DVD release of Ani saying "I shouldn't have done that... and Padme' telling him he's only Human, Ani's response, "I'm a Jedi")

    PadmeLeiaJaina:
    "It is true that the boy we love has vanished before our eyes..."
    I believe we saw the last of that lifelight go out when Shmi dies... it dies down a little when Padme' shuts him down in at the fireplace but in that instance... his humanity is washed away with that singel tear...

    Jedi-ES, as usual, I have very little I can add to your post. I really think that if anyone OTHER than Padme' had pushed that hard he would have closed up compleatly.
  14. jedi-ES Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jun 7, 2002
    star 4
    Viari,

    Thanks. When you have knowledge of this saga, and you think, and then if you share and learn from other good souls on these threads, and there are some, you can learn a lot.

    Keep expressing your thoughts. That's the only way that we are all going to learn.

    PLJ,

    I have to agree with you on everything you just wrote.

    How about this: in Ep. III, Anakin knows that Padme has given birth while being threatend and while he is fighting in the war, but instead of going to her to protect her, he is ordered by Obi-Wan to fight another battle or perform a mission, and when he accomplishes the mission, he finds out that Padme and the child are "dead." That scenario would certain give Anakin a reason to challenge Obi-Wan, wouldn't it?

    "You kept me away from saving my love and my child. I will destroy for it."

    EDIT:

    DB,

    I think you or PLJ or any of a host of others on these threads could have said it better than me, I just happened to post it at the right time.

    But thanks. :)


  15. PadmeLeiaJaina Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    May 23, 2002
    star 6
    Well we have 3 years to wait to see if it pans out. I just can't see him ever turning his back on Padme and the baby though. That's not in Anakin's nature. He would forgo with being a Jedi before giving up on Love. Love and family mean everything to him.

    GL says Ep 3 will be tragic. People immediately associate tragedy with death. I don't see that as being the only possible outcome for Anakin's turn. GL loves to take ideas from the greatest canons of literature. I see Ep 3 as being Othello meets Romeo and Julliet. Star crossed lovers are lead to believe each other is dead- the tragedy lies that they are both told lies- or stories from "a certain point of view" - Anakin will have believed from Palpy (Iago) that Padme is dead. Anakin and Ob1 will duel - OB1 believes Ani is dead and will tell Padme.

    Unfortunately both are alive- but now Anakin is beyond redemption, or so it would seem.

    I have no theory on how Padme dies. I don't want to know how it happens. All I know is Ani will not kill her- and he will not see her die on screen.


    Jedi-ES

    But Lucas has announced the Clone Wars will be over in the first part of the film. The rest will be all character driven. I don't know. 3 years is a LOOOOOONNNNNGGGGG time to have to wait.
  16. DarthBreezy Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Jun 4, 2002
    star 6
    PLJ...

    "I personally have this feeling he will know Padme is pregnant- but will never know she gave birth. He will be told and lead to believe she and the baby are dead."

    Here's where we have the "BIG STICKY"...

    Considering how much Anakin is obsessed/in love with Padme' it's going to be a tough sell to convince him that P is dead... He sensed his mum, (Ok... dreamed about her) sensed Obi-wan (even in Later years as Vader) and considering his bond to Padme' (that 'nookie bond') [face_love] it would take an army to prevent him from trying to find her...

    Also, there's the "Luke SKYWALKER on Tatooine" who happens to live with his step family... I have faith in the great flanneled one but this one leaves things soooooooooooooooo wide open... long three years...

    OH Another thingy of note: It's been said that Padme' is a "Hands OFF" for the EU....

    I THINK I found that on Force net but I can't be sure...
    Hmmmmmmmm makes you wonder....
  17. ViariSkywalker Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Aug 9, 2002
    star 4
    Thanks jedi-ES! Yeah this board is an awesome pace for discussion! That little line at the end of your post was chilling, because I can actually imagine a darkened Anakin saying it. Nice!
  18. ViariSkywalker Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Aug 9, 2002
    star 4
    I've always gotten the feeling that the reason Anakin can sense his mom is not only his strong bond with her, but because Shmi has some slight Force-sensitivity. I know it's never really been said in the movies, but think about it. Why of all people would Shmi be the one to give birth to the Chosen One if she did not at least have some grasp on the Force. I think she is tuned into it enough to be able to feel Anakin's presence and maybe not much else. I think it would be harder for a Jedi such as Anakin to have that kind of bond with a normal person like Padmé. So maybe he wouldn't be able to sense her death, or at least it might be much harder to sense.
  19. PadmeLeiaJaina Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    May 23, 2002
    star 6
    DB

    I know. I know. Palpy could cloud him so he can't sense her.

    And I believe that Jaspor Snippet (or whatever it was) will be the key evidence he will find that will show to him that she is dead. GL didn't add it in for no reason.

    Tatooine is outside the Empire- Vader will never have any reason to go there. There are way too many bad memories for him there. Note - he never landed on the planet in ANH.

    Why do they give Luke the Skywalker last name? I think Padme will insist on it, as a last reminder and link of who he is, and that there was once good in his father. Besides, it's the perfect key piece of the puzzle for our next generation hero to begin his father quest.



    Ugghhh... I'm just going to have to write my own Ep 3 fanfic- I know it.
  20. DarthBreezy Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Jun 4, 2002
    star 6
    Yes, intersting to note that there was a line nipped out of the film where Yoda tells Padme that the "force is strong with her." but irregaurdless... Anakin would not believe his mum was dead.. somehow I think who ever has to try to convivnce him that Padme and his child are gone had better pray that they are well and truly out of his way... (Visions of Tazmanian Devils abound! With Light Sabers yet.....)

    EDIT: ViariSkywalker, I've also ment to say that you've got some great input here too, I''m just having a time trying to keep
    sussed out here!
  21. DarthBreezy Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Jun 4, 2002
    star 6
    PLJ:

    "Ugghhh... I'm just going to have to write my own Ep 3 fanfic- I know it. " Is that a PROMISE????????????????????????


    Hey, have you checked in to "The Rocker Chair"? I posted a new chappy tonight....
  22. jedi-ES Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jun 7, 2002
    star 4
    Viari,

    It comes from trying to write fanfics. I love to think of what Anakin would think or say in certain circumstances, and I actually had been thinking about what Anakin would tell Obi-Wan in that circumstance.

    Also, check out a fanfic by Master-Windu called The Hour of Separation. It's very tragic and you get a sense of what Anakin would feel if separated from Padme. I wish I knew how to link on here, but if you go to the fanfic page, you should be able to find it.

    PLJ,

    Do you think that Obi-Wan would purposely lie to Padme that Anakin was dead, even if he hadn't turned yet?

    Yeah, I know what GL said, but I am trying to tie it in to Obi-Wan, and I would have to think that it's Obi-Wan's fault why he can't be available to "save" them, which would lead to him challenging Obi-Wan.

    DB,

    Good point. That whole "Jedi powers" thing does get in the way. Maybe Anakin is lied to in that Padme does die, but the children don't, but he is told that they all died. I am just guessing.


    EDIT:

    Padme is hands off for the EU? Interesting.

    Viari, I always thought that Shmi had to be force-sensitive to some degree, though no "evidence" is given.




  23. PadmeLeiaJaina Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    May 23, 2002
    star 6
    DB

    Considering I don't like being schytzo with my writing- I need to finish my trilogy in my "Destinies Entwined" fanfic first. And that won't be for a VERY LONG TIME. I'm not even done w/ part 2 yet.

    However once that's done- I'm debating between 2 ideas- an Ep3 fanfic or Anakin's rebirth- a story with the struggles going on in Vaders head after he learns his son is alive after ANH.

    Both would require substantial brainpower on my end I think in order to get them done properly- who knows if I will do them. Possibly. Ok probably. But not until either later this year or even 2003. I just don't like writing more than one story at a time. I get into trouble -and don't finish things- if I do that.

    ;) I'll have to check out Rocking Chair.


    ES=


    Do you think that Obi-Wan would purposely lie to Padme that Anakin was dead, even if he hadn't turned yet?

    I don't think it will be on purpose. I think OB1 will believe, completely, that Anakin is dead after he fell into the lava pit. He won't learn until later that Anakin was saved and changed into a monster by Palpatine. Unfortunately it will be too late by then.
  24. JediHeretic47 Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jul 16, 2002
    star 1
    Amazing discussion guys. I have enjoyed reading it so very much. Upholding the Suite101 tradition. :)

    You want to know something wild? I have no where to actually add this, but remember Padme's first love, Palo? And did you ever read Campbell's essay on "The Mythology of Love?"

    In it, he talks about a scene in Dante's Inferno in which a couple are in a hellish circle reserved for carnal lovers. The woman was sitting with her husband's brother one night, reading the tale of Guinevere and Lancelot. Things progressed between the two, and then they, well, "read no more." Anyway, the woman's name was Francesca, and the man's name was ... Paolo!

    Okay, not exact spelling, but soooo close!

    And if I may add to the earlier discussion about whether or not all this subtext and symbolism is intentional, quite frankly, it makes no difference to me whether it is or whether it isn't. It's there regardless, and it's easy to see, provided one knows what they're looking for. I recall William Hazlitt, a nineteenth century critic, saying that the very definition of genuis is that it works unconsciously. And along those lines, it was sort of the essence of Romanticism that art was an organic process. It couldn't be forced, it was completely natural and spontaneous. And best of all, it had no ulterior motive.

    I mean, if you're walking through the woods one day and you see a beautiful lakeside scene with sun and flowers and trees blowing in the wind, does it really matter whether or not it's intentional? No, according to Campbell. Myth is about experience, intentional or not, not anything so trite as "meaning."
  25. The_Abstract Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jul 16, 2002
    star 4
    DB

    I personally feel it should have been left out. The silence is far more haunting. But I think it clears up the fact that he is sorry and Padme is there to comfort him.


    I would love to see the whole screenplay on film. I hope it will come true some day.

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