Taoism and disappearing Jedi

Mex wrote: "But as I learn more and more about Taoism and the Tao, I'm getting a deeper understanding of other religious systems like Christianity. In fact, I understand Christianity far better today as a Taoist than I did when I was a dead-card member of a Christian Church years ago."

I too am having this awakening. I haven't been to church in...well, let's say a looong time, but I still read the bible. And when I do read, there are certain passages that are just layered with meaning for me (now that I have some experience with Taoism and Zen Buddhism). I look forward to reading the material you all have posted on the Tao.

May the Force be with you, always.

 

Awesome post Jedi Merkurian! I play also, do you live anywhere in the southern california area?

If you do, do you want to play sometime?

 

Great post, Merkurian.

There are some statements in your post that strongly remind me of certain text passages I've read in classical taoist texts (i.e. LaoTse, ChuangTse, WengTse). I've got to look through this literature again, it will take a few days, but I'll try to dig these passages out.

Something else: There was a quite interesting discussion on spirit body, physical immortality etc. in Taoism on the healingtaousa-www-board. If you are interested, check out this thread: http://www.healingtaousa.com/messages/12105.html
and follow-ups.

 

Good post...


I was wondering how much time you all spend in daily prayer and or meditation. I have endeavored to spend more time in meditation, but I am falling woefully short...

 

Hi Wylding,

no prayers for me, only energy practices (if you consider that as meditation). I've got somewhat more than two hours on train to get to work and back home and I do practice during this time every day. Additionally I try and do for about half an hour in the evening at home those practices you can't possibly do on train. So in total it comes to 2-2,5 hours a day, somewhat less on weekends.

I've been to a seminar with my taoist teacher in Munich last weekend and he told us instead of trying to keep more time free for practice we should try and integrate practice into our daily life, for ex. doing simple exercises when waiting for the train, at the post office, and in general trying to bring awareness from the brain to the DanTien as often as possible. This way, if we add up all these minutes of practice we get a substantial amount of extra practice each day. I've been trying to do this since the beginning of this week, at first it is difficult, but it's getting better in time.

 

Hey Mex,

Sometimes I do that...I will time my breathing to my steps while I'm walking on campus sometimes. It's kind of an adaptation of a sitting meditation that I learned.

 

You have all gone way over my head unfortunately. But I am still thoroughly enjoying this thread. I'm still here, just lurking now....

*Man I've got to get these books you've all mentioned*

 

Extremely intriguing discussion Jedi Merkurian (hehe; my car is a Merkur). I coudn't have spoken more honestly or objectively than you just did. I'm also very glad to see that someone other than me understands the true nature of the Force as an unyielding and unbiased power. This shows a real understanding not only of SW philosophy and its flaws; but also of real world spiritual growth and common misconceptions regarding "the Divine" (as I sometimes call it).

But the fact that I've found someone like you is also very disconcerting; for as such a path as this can save a person it can also destroy them. Therefore; I STRONGLY suggest you read "In Search of the Miraculous" by PD Ouspensky. Ouspensky studied with perhaps the most intriguing man of the spiritual world of the last millenium; whose identity and teachings remain hidden from those not in cahuts with his secret organization. I speak of it here freely because usually no one takes anything too seriously on this forum. And yes; my family is in the "secret" organization; very hard to get in. Regardless of this; you should check out the book and pay special attention to something called "The Fourth Way". There is a theory in the book that there are three ways: the physical(mastered by the Fakir); the spiritual(mastered by the monk); and the intellectual(mastered by the Yogi). But there is also a FOURTH Way; and it is perhaps the most effective. But what is this Fourth Way? Aha; that 'good sir' is the question. I suggest you read the book. Happy Day! Please email me with any questions or comments at nhikrath@hotmail.com . I expect the book will incite you.

And as for my own meditation; I would never dare stop meditating and this is why I never do. Sporadic and periodic meditation is...elementary (for lack of a better word). It's just like only being "spiritual" on Sundays; even though your spirit is always with you. It's there constantly; why not WORK on it constantly? And is there really anything more important than it? This is all discussed in the book I mentioned. I suggest you get it if you ever intend to...work on yourself. Oh I'm so excited! Read it please Merkurian.

Lord Nhik Rath

 

From what I am learning, to master the spirtual *is* to master both the physical and the intellectual. When the illusions fall away and the Divine is realized *all* things become possible. The physical and the intellectual and the spirtual become moot points because *you* or the self has ceased to exist outside of the Divine. And to the Divine nothing is impossible.


Also I would caution against any one organized way. When someone attains this state it is almost impossible for their diciples to attain it because they are merely copying their teacher. Their teacher had a unique experience in and of himself/herself. This experience cannot be put into words and transmitted in this fashion. Therefore, it is imperative the disciple listen to his teacher, but make his own way as his heart speaks to him.

I put this in very clumsy words, but if you read the book Siddhartha you will understand what illusion I am speaking to you.

LOL

In Martial Arts we have a saying: When the master laughs the student cries. When the student laughs the master cries...

 

Hey guys, good to see you're still there. I've been having a very eventful time recently (job wise), but I decided that now it's overdue to do something for the yin yang balance of this thread again ). Okeeday, I promised to look through the literature for parallels of JM's excerpts and comments of StarWars RPG in classical Taoist texts. Here's reference to some passages in the TaoTeKing along with some StarWars quotes (numbers in brackets refer to TaoTeKing chapters; I don't quote for copyright reasons, also it would make this post too long. There is a translation on the internet on http://www.iging.com/laotse/index.htm).

On guidelines for Jedi Action
(5) and (7): wise men are impartial and detached from action, they stay behind.
"We cannot use our power to help her" (Qui Gon)

(30) The wise man just does what needs to be done. He never takes advantage of his power. He strives to achieve results but does neither glory them nor boast.
"I shall do what I must do, Obi-Wan" (Qui-Gon)

(16): Advises us to still the mind and return to the source of stillness and (52): The Tao is the origin of all things, when we the Tao we are free from the fear of death.
"There is no emotion; there is peace. There is no ignorance; there is knowledge. There is no passion; there is serenity. There is no death, there is the Force." (From the Jedi Code)

On Morality:
(38) "When the Tao is lost, there is virtue. When virtue is lost, there is kindness. When kindness is lost, there is justice. When justice is lost, there is morality. Morality is the beginning of confusion.."
Bottom line: A Jedi is not a creature of morality. A Jedi is a creature of the Force

On Weapons and Warfare:
(31) Weapons are applicances to induce fear, therefore a wise man uses them only when he has no other choice. Victory is nothing to celebrate as it is associated with killing, thus it must be viewed like a funeral.
"A Jedi uses the force only for knowledge and defense, never for attack", and: "
Great warrior? Wars don't make one great." (Yoda)

(69) The greatest disaster is caused by underestimating the enemy.
"Do not underestimate the powers of the emperor" (Yoda)

And finally, some hints on possible causes for Anakin's fall are included in (24): boasting, self-righteousness, (27): Disrespect for the teacher, not caring for the student and (29): Trying to improve the universe.


PS: Wylding, what you're doing in walking around campus adjusting your breathing comes close to what I've been taught as "body breathing while walking". You are supposed to body-breath, four steps - breathe in chi, four steps -breathe out chi. Ideally you should disconnect the body breathing from your breathing with the lungs. And I find it completely impossible. I nearly stumble over my own feet and I have a hard time avoiding to run against some parking meter. How do you do it?
What are you reading right now?

 

Great post Mex! That must represent a ton of material read. I admire your dedication to this topic and I have enjoyed your contribution (as well as everyone else's).

To answer your question Mex, when I think about how I do it I realized that I am actually using two meditation techniques. One is a technique all martial artists should be able to do: As you begin to walk, expand your awareness so that you are observing everything in your visual field without giving one thing more time, importance, and/or focus than anything else. This could be very difficult at first. However, all it is is using your peripheral vision alot more than you are used to doing. Then, once I have established this type of visual meditation, I begin to do the breathing excercise. I have no problems with running into things Try the first and get good at it and you'll have no problems with the breathing excercise.

I've been doing the visual meditation for over 15 years in some form or another and it has become an automatic thing for me. So, when you asked me how I did it, at first I did really know. LOL!

PS I just finished reading Siddhartha and I have started to read and supplement my training with "Shaolin & Taoist Herbal Training Formulas for Ch'i Kung, Meditation, the Internal Martial Arts, & Longevity." I am also reading Anne Rice's "Memnoch the Devil" and the book of Daniel & I and II Corinthians in the bible (there are some awesome examples of chi usage in the bible...).

 

Hi Wylding,

thanks for your tips on the walking meditation, I'll check this out. However, I suspect that it isn't quite what my teacher has in mind. For we are supposed to do all our exercises in that kind of half sleep / doozing state you're in when you are in deep meditation (the qigong-state, as he calls it, theta-waves in terms of the EEG). He even suggested we do that while riding a bicycle (didn't dare to try it yet!)

As to the post... tons of material? No, just the TaoTeKing. But actually, it's all in there, and all subsequent texts (Chuang Tse, Weng Tse etc.) amount to a commentary /interpretation of the TTK, don't they?

 

"As you begin to walk, expand your awareness so that you are observing everything in your visual field without giving one thing more time, importance, and/or focus than anything else."

OHO! The Genghis does this on three occasions:

When he is playing video games like the X-Wing flight simulator series.

When he is out at a nightclub observing the interaction between others.

And...

Two occasions.

 

While somewhat humorous it is also quite effective. In the TPM novel I recall Anakin stating that the only time he could really feel the Force was when he was pod-racing. This is what we refer to in Taoism as "the carnal intelligence". Any athlete can easily identify with this feeling where the body seems to be more capable at an action than the mind. This state is easily obtained when playing any fast-paced game of dexterity such as ping-pong or even the Xwing series. I myself have been "in the zone" while playing video games; in that my hands and body seem to work faster than my mind and thusly better than as well. This is a very interesting phenomenon and what I feel to be the clearest sign of physical mastery where personal growth is concerned; but I could be wrong.

You've probably all read it already; but if you haven't I order you to read 'Dune' by Frank Herbert. This book says more about attention and concentration than most Taoist books I've read. I've become so familiar with the book that I often refer to the physical and mental feats I gain thru my spiritual growth as "Bene Gesserit" training. The registering and intense concentration of a persona are the staples of Bene Gesserit training; and I have learned so much of this subject by reading the book that I can't imagine a life without it.

Also I'm very well aware of how limiting one school of thought can be; this is why my family joined the group we are in. You should be able to tell by the amount of progress I've made in this that I'm no stranger to the path's dangers. The group is a guide for learning; because the process is much more perilous than the outcomes. Many fall into the traps of religion when they search for spirituality because they lack the skills that are outlined in "The Search For the Miraculous". I could tell the one addressed was getting close to a juncture and it is a matter of life or death that he seek proper guidance before moving forward. By no means is the book for everyone; it is a specialty book for someone on a certain step of the path. I simply judged he is close to the step.

Also; thank you for the continued SW to Taoism axiom relations.

Lord Nhik Rath

 

Concerning this meditation discussion it seems to me that we have been talking about two different forms of meditation. What you, Wylding, and Nhik Rath are talking about, is a form of meditation aiming at expanding awareness to encompass everything within reach of your senses. What I had in mind in my original post on the walking meditation was a different form of meditation, which aims at quite the opposite, namely centering, turning awareness inward and not being aware of your surroundings or observing anything at all (which is called the "sealing of the five senses" or "cutting the five roots" in Taoism). In the expanding form you are wide awake, whereas in the centering form you are half asleep (of course, I don't have any problems with running into things when doing the first form, as you may already have guessed ). I'm not sure of the relationship between those two forms, and I don't know if and how they may be combined; I remember a lady, a Zen adept, talking about her teacher telling her that she could practice any form of meditation together with Zen with the exception of the Passana meditation, as Zen also aims at centering, whereas the latter aims at expanding awareness. Any thoughts on that?

On Frank Herbert, of course I've read Dune, but I must admit that although it's a beautiful piece of literature it never became one of my favourites. This underlying glorification of the superior /supernatural skills and feats of the Bene Gesserit and their use to influence (manipulate?) people for one's own purposes is something very un-taoist and has always put me off. For this reason it also never occured to me to think of the Bene Gesserit training as a taoist practice. In Taoism it is said that superior skills are developed as a by-product of training; they are not strived for for their own sake or invoked to raise oneself above ordinary people, much less used to influence them. The latter would be an interference with the Tao, and may well be a first step towards the dark side of the Force.

 

"I remember a lady, a Zen adept, talking about her teacher telling her that she could practice any form of meditation together with Zen with the exception of the Passana meditation, as Zen also aims at centering, whereas the latter aims at expanding awareness. Any thoughts on that?"

I have one. You guys can take it or leave it. I may step on some toes here, so be warned.

We are taught both forms very early on in Jiujitsu. For the beginner we use a sitting meditation where the meditator allows no thought to distract him or her from the sound of silence. I believe it's english translation is "the still mind." It is very centering and discplines the mind very well. After one is adept with this, other forms of meditation which expand awareness are practiced. It is essential to have an utterly disciplined mind at this point, because one of the goals of meditatioins in Jiujitsu is to increase the power of thought so that thoughts can effect the physical world. Therefore, errant and/or stray thoughts could potentially be lethal to yourself or others(in the gravest extreme). So, Nihk's point about destroying yourself (or others) in discovering this path is VERY REAL. However, like Mex said these abilities are cities along the path. Don't dwell in the city, but maintain your walk on the path (with a good teacher). For those of us in my Jiujitsu system this is to know God and these abilities stem from knowing God/Tao/Divine/Universal (insert whatever linguistic term for Him, Her, It that you want to here).

 

"For the beginner we use a sitting meditation where the meditator allows no thought to distract him or her from the sound of silence. I believe it's english translation is "the still mind." It is very centering and discplines the mind very well. After one is adept with this, other forms of meditation which expand awareness are practiced."

This was one of my first thoughts when reflecting about the relationship of the two meditation forms. However, it would imply that Zen adepts never get past the beginner's stage, wouldn't it? This is a bit hard for me to swallow. I think there must be more to the centering form than this. Maybe it's just a matter of different methods employed in different ways to the ultimate goal, I mean in martial arts the expanding form is probably much more important than in Nei Kung. As I know it, there's much more to the centering form than just stilling the mind. I really don't see how even most of the more advanced Nei Kung practices may be accomplished without centering (e.g. Bone Marrow Nei Kung, Fusion practices, Kan and Li meditations etc.) And the Sealing of Five Senses is actually one of the last stages of Taoist inner alchemy ("At this level, death is transcended entirely"). I read somewhere that the human body is a microcosm that exactly reflects the macrocosm of the universe. In this view, the universe is like a hologram, with each of it's parts encompassing all aspects and characteristics of the Whole. That way, the centering meditation, which focusses on the Part (the human body/mind/spirit), achieves the same goal als the expanding meditation, which focusses on the Whole.

 

"This was one of my first thoughts when reflecting about the relationship of the two meditation forms. However, it would imply that Zen adepts never get past the beginner's stage, wouldn't it? "

I didn't mean to imply that Zen adepts never get past a beginners stage. Rather, I think what is happening is that in order to do some of the things involved in expanding awareness, you need a good background in centering. The ability to center also goes hand and hand with a strict discipline of the mind. Therefore, mastery of such centering forms as "the still mind" is a required step in an evolution of meditational practice before moving on to the advanced forms in my particular system.

This might be completely backwards to someone who is studying a different system. However, I think that with the proper teacher and the right mindset anything is possible in any system. I'm not sure if what I am saying is clear...

Do you agree/disagree? Am I even making sense?

lol

 

I understand completely what you're all saying. It must be made clear that in a path so completely dependent on the person who walks it; the processes and studies used to walk along and eventually reach a goal differ for every person. In this way there is no such thing universally as "a beginner" or "advanced forms" of meditation/study/awareness/etc. It must be stressed though; that while following a certain school may be beneficial to you at one time it may hinder you later.

An analogy I often like to use is rock-climbing. When you are at the bottom of the mountain you need a rope to get you a certain height and when you find a rope it is very helpful. But when you're past the point where the rope is attached to the rock and you go higher than it; the rope eventually gets taught and you cannot move any higher. The rope may even weigh you down as you try to go higher that it. You then need to discard that rope and look for one that is attached at a higher point. People get confused and think that every school is all at the same level and that one is as good as another. While comparably to eachother they may be as good as eachother; relative to you and your position on the "mountain" they are unequal in quality.

This goes further to explain your discussion regarding meditation techniques. I myself believe all meditation (be it sensory-isolation or awareness focused) to be a form of attaining complete control over your being's mind; body; emotions; and spirit. What you do with this control all depends on your goals. Physical and mental feats may have romantic attractions; but are they really your goals? (I'm glad you didn't like how I refered to the Taoist physical feats as cool little Bene Gesserit tools. I was being humorous in how I treated the subject and it's a testament to your loyalty that you did not find it humurously arousing. But don't think that taking this subject seriously will make it any easier. The things of the most importance should be treated with the least amount of seriousness.) There are several techniques and several schools; and some that are even lost to their own causes and reasoning. Because of this; you should always be looking around to other people who have the same goal as you; as we are all doing now; because not every school may have the right agenda or goal that mirrors your own. Make sure you know what you want and why and how.

Do all my posts seem to be corrective lectures? I apologize for that.

Lord Nhik Rath

 

Don't worry, Wylding, you're making perfect sense ). Well, for the moment I've decided to think of the centering form as a necessary introductory step to all forms of meditation. From there on, you may switch to other forms of meditation or you may further pursue more "advanced" variations of the centering form. It's different tools and paths to the top of the mountain. Can you go with that?
(Unfortunately, all this doesn't help me with the walking meditation, at least with the form I was taught; I fear that riding a bicycle half asleep might get me into Nirvana in quite a different way than intended! LOL!)

I really do like this hologram analogy, it really mirrors the multitude of possibilities that eventually all amount to the same. You're right of course Nhik, on certain occasions you have to discard a method or even the whole school if you feel it's not getting you anywhere. But switching to the opposite extreme is not any better at all, I mean this "teacher hopping" that's sometimes observed with people who desire spiritual development but lack the patience to stick with a system long enough for it to get them anywhere at all. These things take time and effort ("Gong Fu"!!) and a little advance of trust and confidence is required before you can judge if a method is working for you. But I'm sure that this hopping attitude is not what you meant to imply.

And I'm really glad you were joking about the Bene Gesserit stuff, I apologize for not realizing that. I'm always somewhat wary if someone on the spiritual path appears to try and use his knowledge against people. We've got enough darksiders already in this world, and sadly I've had to witness the consequences of a friend of mine being abused by one of them. This may explain why I may take this stuff a bit too seriously sometimes.