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Taoist and Zen Wisdom

Discussion in 'Archive: The Senate Floor' started by Wylding, Jan 15, 2002.

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  1. Wylding

    Wylding Jedi Master star 5

    Registered:
    Aug 13, 2000
    I decided to post some cool Zen and Taoist stories I came across (I'll probably post about one a week).

    I love these stories, frequently there are many layers of meaning to each one. It's up to the reader to delve into the various layers and discern their value or lack thereof.


    'Wanting God



    A hermit was meditating by a river when a young man interrupted him. "Master, I wish to become your disciple," said the man. "Why?" replied the hermit. The young man thought for a moment. "Because I want to find God."

    The master jumped up, grabbed him by the scruff of his neck, dragged him into the river, and plunged his head under water. After holding him there for a minute, with him kicking and struggling to free himself, the master finally pulled him up out of the river. The young man coughed up water and gasped to get his breath. When he eventually quieted down, the master spoke. "Tell me, what did you want most of all when you were under water."

    "Air!" answered the man.

    "Very well," said the master. "Go home and come back to me when you want God as much as you just wanted air."'
     
  2. Darth Geist

    Darth Geist Jedi Master star 5

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    Oct 23, 1999
    "The one who knows does not speak. The one who speaks does not know."
     
  3. cydonia

    cydonia Jedi Knight star 5

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    Jun 6, 2001
    That's one of my faves, geist. The tao is all about living here and now, and not presuming you know the answers. Not knowing the answers is knowing the answers. And it is not a religion imo. Just a direct reltationship with god, no intermediaries.
     
  4. Jedi_Master201

    Jedi_Master201 Jedi Knight star 5

    Registered:
    May 5, 2001
    How can anyone with evil (in any form, in any amount) in their lives have a direct relationship with God(good)?


    I'm done wrecking your thread now. Anyone want to argue the point I've just made may do so via PM's. ;)
     
  5. cydonia

    cydonia Jedi Knight star 5

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    Jun 6, 2001
    Two sides of the coin.
     
  6. Jedi_Master201

    Jedi_Master201 Jedi Knight star 5

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    May 5, 2001
    Two sides of a true coin don't contradict each other, but rather compliment each other.

    Evil contradicts Good. To me, they aren't part of the same "coin".
     
  7. Darth Geist

    Darth Geist Jedi Master star 5

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    Oct 23, 1999
    "Evil contradicts Good."

    So much for "God kills because he loves us." ;)
     
  8. Saint_of_Killers

    Saint_of_Killers Jedi Youngling star 5

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    Feb 18, 2001
    I thought you said you were done?
     
  9. Jedi_Master201

    Jedi_Master201 Jedi Knight star 5

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    May 5, 2001
    Well, the point is, "a kingdom devided against itself cannot stand."


    But that's just my opinion, and unless somebody argues my point further, I won't debate anything in this thread anymore. :)
     
  10. Jedi Merkurian

    Jedi Merkurian New Films Thread Reaper and Rumor Naysayer star 6 Staff Member Manager

    Registered:
    May 25, 2000
    Ahh.....good to see you again, Wylding!

    May I assist?
     
  11. cydonia

    cydonia Jedi Knight star 5

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    Jun 6, 2001
    Maybe i should rephrase. The Tao itself doesnt' speak of god, just the Tao, or the Way. It is something unknowable, and unspeakable, so ascribing any word to it other than the Way is probably wrong. Light cannot exist without darkness, and neither could exist without God, but that's my opinion, the tao says the same thing without talking about God in the sense you're used to it.
     
  12. Obi Wan Bergkamp

    Obi Wan Bergkamp Jedi Master star 3

    Registered:
    Oct 19, 1998
    Do, or do not - there is no try.
     
  13. Lord Bane

    Lord Bane Manager Emeritus star 5 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

    Registered:
    May 26, 1999
    Are you going to discuss Taoist and Zen Wisdom or just list a series of quotes? That would be more of a Quote thread that I see as belonging in the JCC.
     
  14. Wylding

    Wylding Jedi Master star 5

    Registered:
    Aug 13, 2000
    Well, it was my hope that we have frank discussion on the meaning of some of the quotes. I'd ask that you don't shut the thread down, because I'm not going to get the same quality of responses over at the JCC.

    Of course you may help Merkurian, it's good to see you too.

    Edit: JM 201, can you tell me what you find evil about Zen or Taoism? What do you find evil about the very first story or any of the stories posted so far? I need concrete examples, not just vague accusations.
     
  15. Saint_of_Killers

    Saint_of_Killers Jedi Youngling star 5

    Registered:
    Feb 18, 2001
    "JM 201, can you tell me what you find evil about Zen or Taoism? What do you find evil about the very first story or any of the stories posted so far? "

    Isn't it obvious?

    That old dude tried to drown that guy! and God didn't tell him to! He's eeeeeeeeeeeevvviiilll!!!!!


    INDEED

    ;)
     
  16. Jedi_Master201

    Jedi_Master201 Jedi Knight star 5

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    May 5, 2001
    Wylding, I don't find anything all-out evil about it, but I do find that it disagrees with the Bible, which, I believe, is God's Word. In my mind, anything that disagrees with God's Word (i.e. God Himself) is wrong, whether evil in the worst sense, or simply evil as in against God.
     
  17. Wylding

    Wylding Jedi Master star 5

    Registered:
    Aug 13, 2000
    Please show me what disagree's with God's word here. I think it complements God's word for example:


    John 12:25 "He who loves his life will lose it, and he who hates his life in this world will keep it for eternal life."

    Notice the parallel's to the story:


    "A hermit was meditating by a river when a young man interrupted him. "Master, I wish to become your disciple," said the man. "Why?" replied the hermit. The young man thought for a moment. "Because I want to find God."

    The master jumped up, grabbed him by the scruff of his neck, dragged him into the river, and plunged his head under water. After holding him there for a minute, with him kicking and struggling to free himself, the master finally pulled him up out of the river. The young man coughed up water and gasped to get his breath. When he eventually quieted down, the master spoke. "Tell me, what did you want most of all when you were under water."

    "Air!" answered the man.

    "Very well," said the master. "Go home and come back to me when you want God as much as you just wanted air."

    Really try to understand what the Hermit is saying. Don't be shocked by his actions. Look at the message. Then read John again:

    John 12:25 "He who loves his life will lose it, and he who hates his life in this world will keep it for eternal life."

    It's pretty hard to claim that the message is not the same.


     
  18. Ardens_Furore

    Ardens_Furore Jedi Padawan star 4

    Registered:
    May 14, 2001
    I find it strange that some people, trying to assert that their religion is the right way, will denounce all other ways of thinking. Especially when the other ways of thinking can be made to compliment their own religion. If parallels and complimenting qualities can be found, it can reinforce whatever you believe in. By denouncing something that could support your own religion, you're actually denouncing your own faith.

    I've heard priests say that many religions have a common element, which means we all believe in the same thing, just a different interpretation of it. I believe that is the correct way to have faith.

    BTW, I don't understand the moderation policy. If we only post quotes, this thread will be closed, but look at [link=http://boards.theforce.net/message.asp?topic=5178429&page=2]this thread.[/link] I don't see it being closed for just posting of poetry. I hate to bring this up, but really ... the policy isn't quite equal now is it?
     
  19. Jedi_Master201

    Jedi_Master201 Jedi Knight star 5

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    May 5, 2001
    Wylding, that's a good point.


    However, I doubt that all parts of Taoism compliments the Bible. In fact, I know that some of it most certainly contradicts it.
     
  20. Wylding

    Wylding Jedi Master star 5

    Registered:
    Aug 13, 2000
    I have story for you JM201, but I won't post it for some time. I'd like you to become a little more familiar with some of the stories first.

    Here's another one of my favorites:



    'After winning several archery contests, the young and rather boastful champion challenged a Zen master who was renowned for his skill as an archer. The young man demonstrated remarkable technical proficiency when he hit a distant bull's eye on his first try, and then split that arrow with his second shot. "There," he said to the old man, "see if you can match that!" Undisturbed, the master did not draw his bow, but rather motioned for the young archer to follow him up the mountain. Curious about the old fellow's intentions, the champion followed him high into the mountain until they reached a deep chasm spanned by a rather flimsy and shaky log. Calmly stepping out onto the middle of the unsteady and certainly perilous bridge, the old master picked a far away tree as a target, drew his bow, and fired a clean, direct hit. "Now it is your turn," he said as he gracefully stepped back onto the safe ground. Staring with terror into the seemingly bottomless and beckoning abyss, the young man could not force himself to step out onto the log, no less shoot at a target. "You have much skill with your bow," the master said, sensing his challenger's predicament, "but you have little skill with the mind that lets loose the shot." '


     
  21. Wylding

    Wylding Jedi Master star 5

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    Aug 13, 2000
    I'd like to know what's evil about that story...
     
  22. cydonia

    cydonia Jedi Knight star 5

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    Jun 6, 2001
    There's nothing evil about that story as far as i can tell. There's nothing evil about any of the stories as far as i can tell. But i'm sure somewhere the evidence that it is evil will pop up.
     
  23. Majestic_Elliair

    Majestic_Elliair Jedi Youngling

    Registered:
    Sep 19, 2001
    These are wonderful Wylding. I am happy they are posted and you seem wise enough to post them.
     
  24. Jedi_Master201

    Jedi_Master201 Jedi Knight star 5

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    May 5, 2001
    I find nothing evil about that story, Wylding. I don't think there's anything wrong with following other philosophies along with following the Bible. But when it contradicts the Bible is when you have to watch out. The Bible is the center of my beliefs. I do think, however, that God allows wisdom for other people who don't follow the Bible.
     
  25. Wylding

    Wylding Jedi Master star 5

    Registered:
    Aug 13, 2000
    Good points JM.


    'A university professor went to visit a famous Zen master. While the master quietly served tea, the professor talked about Zen. The master poured the visitor's cup to the brim, and then kept pouring. The professor watched the overflowing cup until he could no longer restrain himself. "It's overfull! No more will go in!" the professor blurted. "You are like this cup," the master replied, "How can I show you Zen unless you first empty your cup." '


    Edit: Thanks ME, I'm glad you like them! Feel free to comment on any of the stories as I am looking forward to discussing them.



     
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