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Taoist struggles to sort out confusion - on darkness and light, issues of balance, and Jedi and Sith

Discussion in 'Star Wars Saga In-Depth' started by mandragora, Sep 20, 2005.

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  1. Cryogenic

    Cryogenic Force Ghost star 5

    Registered:
    Jul 20, 2005
    As I said above, I don't think the Force partitions off into "Light" and "Dark" aspects - or any aspects for that matter. The Force just is. That goes for the Living and the Unifying components (i.e. there's no "Light" or "Dark"). In fact, I should follow my words through - "The Force just is" - to the next logical point: dividing the Force up into "Living" and "Unifying" may ultimately be apocrypha. Anyway, proceeding with those terms for now...

    As Palpatine's plot gained in strength, both the Living and Unifying aspects were potentially "clouded" by the Dark Side. Now, that might seem to contradict what I've just said, but stick with me... You could look at this in different ways. One analogy is that of a sea of water being polluted. In this analogy, the sea itself is the pure Force aspect - and the pollutants that infest it are the Dark Side. But another analogy is that of a sea simply undergoing a change of form. In this analogy, there is no pollutant - the Dark Side exists as part of the sea and it is the actions of others that alter the sea, creating waves and disturbances, good and bad.

    I'm not sure if that actually makes any sense - but it's about the best way I could think of describing it.

    When Yoda says, "the Dark Side clouds everything", I'm not sure the Dark Side is an impenetrable fog in absolute terms as much as it is an impenetrable fog in relative terms. What do I mean here? Quite simply, that Yoda (or any of the other PT Jedi, for that matter) cannot penetrate the fog because they don't understand it. Relative to their teachings, their dogma, their limited understanding of the Force, the Dark Side is a malignant outside entity to the Jedi - the cosmic gatecrasher of the Force's New Year's Eve party. That's how the Jedi perceive it. To them, it feels like there's absolutely no way of understanding or lifting that fog. Save for brute force methods like dispatching recognised Dark Side practitioners. This seems too limiting and unrealistic to me. For as I argued before, everyone has the capacity for good and evil. This is also why the PT Jedi fail. They're living in perpetual denial - that someone is either part of the Dark Side or they're not. They see things in a polarised fashion. As such, they're either unwilling or unable to see the Dark Side in themselves. And because they reserve the Dark Side for outsiders, whilst believing themselves infallible, they no longer know what the Dark Side is. It's a foreign agent to them. They sense the effects of the Dark Side but are utterly unable to comprehend the Dark Side itself. Even Qui Gon didn't get the chance to prove to us just HOW different he was to the Council. Could he have discovered the Sith plot before it was too late? Could he have saved Anakin? Instead, this responsibility falls to Luke. And Luke only succeeds because he senses the Dark Side within himself, and rather than repressing it like the PT Jedi did, Luke takes that negative energy and turns it into something positive.
     
  2. mandragora

    mandragora Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    May 28, 2005
    I think that is a good way of looking at it. What could this pollutants imagined be? A thought on this that occurred to me: In the "Sith and Satanism" thread I've posted on similarities of the Sith and the Sat-tan philosophy. One of the excerpts I've quoted there states:
    ?The force of destruction that is inevitable for all things that exist, is called the force of entropy. This dark, entropic force combined with the force of light would only destroy and crush out the light of creation.?


    When reading this I got the idea that maybe the dark side of the Force in a wider sense, maybe even a "dark side" of the unifying Force, could be associated with the force of Entropy. This would also explain why the dark side is stronger (according to Lucas on the DVD commentary to AOTC): If the dark side is associated with the force of entropy, the second law of thermodynamics in a sense is the reason why the dark side is stronger: No matter what happens, in the end events will always result in a state of greater entropy. If you use the dark side of the Force, you're supported by the law of increasing entropy.

    I agree.
     
  3. Jedi_872

    Jedi_872 Jedi Youngling star 1

    Registered:
    Aug 3, 2005
    First off, great posts everyone! I love threads like this.

    I am still of the opinion that there is no Light Side of the Force. For me the Dark Side is a way to explain misuse of the Force. The things that are said to be the Dark Side (fear, anger, hatred) can be used in a good way, and if this happens these emotions are not bad. For example, if you are angry that you have been hurt and so try to make sure that no one else is hurt the same way. You are still angry and are acting on your anger, but it is not the Dark Side. The Dark Side can't be made up of emotions with the potential to be distructive, because all emotions have that potential. This is what made the PT Jedi avoid as much as possible. However, what they did not realise was that all emotions have the potential to be constructive, as well.

    Just a Jedi could listen to the Living or Unifying Force, a Sith could, too. After Anakin turns to the Dark Side he is acting in the moment, or using - though not listening to - the Living Force. However, Sidious spent many years plotting to figure out how to gain control of the galaxy. In this instance, he was using the Unifying Force.

    I think there are three things that were imbalanced during the PT.

    1) Living and Unifying Force. The Jedi are too concerned about the future and not concentrating on the presant.

    2) The cycle of creation, preservation, and disruction. In this era, very little is being created or destroyed. The Jedi have become stagnant in their veiws, and, as nothing was being cleared away, nothing more could be added. This leads to their downfall, as Anakin has no sense of this, and thus wants to stop distruction, Padme's death, without understanding that death is nessacary for birth.

    3) Self and others. The Jedi are completely selfless and do things only for others. The Sith think only of themselves and couldn't care less about anyone else. Neither of these are right; there must be a balance between the two.
     
  4. mandragora

    mandragora Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    May 28, 2005
    So again it would amount to not let yourself be controlled by your emotions. But then again, this also is a part of Sith teachings. The difference seems to be that while the Jedi avoid their emotions, the Sith use their emotions for their own ends. And of course the ends themselves are different (at least they seem). The closer one looks at the issue, the more it becomes obvious that there are indeed quite a number of similarities between the Jedi and the Sith.

    I agree, especially with the second point. The order had become stagnant and started to degenerate, as had the Republic. I think this is one reason why their ability to use the Force had begun to diminish. This is not only the case with not having been able to detect Sidious, the Clone Army creation and the like. There is further evidence that "the Order was not was it once was" in the novelization, when it comes to Anakin's visions. Yoda there states that in former times many Jedi had this ability of clear visions that proved to be correct, but at present there were very few that still had this ability. A further indication that the power of the Jedi to use the Force had been diminished.
     
  5. mandragora

    mandragora Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    May 28, 2005
    Just to up this one again - some additional Taoist reflections (and confusions) that came to mind after attending a Taoist weekend seminar two weeks ago. Interestingly, in an article the Secretary General of China's Qigong Research Institute Master Li, Zhi-Nan was quoted as having warned in a lecture of "joining dark forces to increase one's potential."

    I found this interesting, for several reasons.

    Firstly, it is in line with Lucas' quote that "the dark side is stronger" - since it clearly implies that there is a possibility to increase Chi (i.e. "Force") potential by means of "joining dark forces".

    Secondly, it seems to contrast with the common notion that in Taoist systems - or Far Eastern systems in general - that they work from a cosmological perspective which refrains from value judgements such as "good" and "evil". The warning of using dark forces seems to imply that this is a path that is dangerous at least, if not "evil" in the Western sense. I'm not quite sure yet if this idea fits into classical Taoist philosophy or if it is something more Confucian influenced instead. Then again, from the viewpoint of classical Taoist philosophy one could argue that acting against the Tao has always been warned of. However, I'm not sure how the reference to "dark forces" fits into this :confused:
     
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