Taxation, the Economy, Equality, and Fiscal Policy

You don't need the health insurance

Uh huh. I've spent several thousand dollars over the past several years in health-related payments, and that's with insurance. Care to guess what it would be without insurance?

There's someone younger than me (I'm 27) on the JC who has spent a good deal more than I have, and we both have chronic problems that have no end in sight.

 

Because he brought up the whole point of higher wages means you have to pay more for the things you make and sell.

7 Ways to Annoy a Flight Attendant

7. Whine about the high price of flying.

When I hear people complain about coach airfares, I know they're not keeping up with the news. Fares have rarely been cheaper. In recent years, it's not uncommon for you to be able to cross the continent for under $130 each way, with a maximum of one layover. It's a bargain! At that price, you're barely paying for the fuel to get your body there?never mind the cost of shipping your 50 pounds of gear. You're already on the gravy plane. People point to first class ticket holders and want to know why they don't get the same treatment. Wake up folks: You're getting a great deal. If you want even more, pay more!


Yeah if we want more on planes then we will have to pay more for it. To bad no one will be able buy the tickit. But hey who cares if they have to rise the price of milk to 4.00.

We want things cheap well also wanting to be paid more. We want things cheap but we also want ever thing that the people in first class have. Nothing is cheap and nothing is free in the world and if it comes cheap sit down and stop complaning because that's want you wanted to being with.

You want free health care. Watch you're taxes go way up because it's not free.

 

OK, I'm an old (well-insured) fart and you're going to have to explain to me what the **** health insurance has to do with flying.

Or at least enlighten me on which topic we're discussing. Or if you can't do that, quote my post in which I said that airline prices are too high. You won't find it, because I don't happen to think they are. And I've done a lot of flying in my time and I've never heard anyone say that they want the privileges of first class for flying in coach. Where the heck are you pulling that from?

Also, quote me on the post in which I mentioned "free health care." You won't find it either. I call it "universal health care," and I know my taxes will go up. Which brings us back to KW's original point, which I agreed with--if our taxes include good public transportation and the price of health care, we don't care if they go up. I personally would much rather pay for everyone in the country to have health care, than to pay for our men and women of the military to die in a country that never attacked us. But I didn't get to make that choice.

 

You want free health care. Watch you're taxes go way up because it's not free.


I'm fine with my taxes going up for pay for health insurance. You're assuming no one is okay with that, when in fact many people are, and in some parts of the world, it's standard operating procedure.

 

No many people are not ok with that. Many people don't want to be paying for some else to have health insurance when they don't do anything. And if it costs so much for you, you may want to look at how you are spending you're and what you are spending it on. Then step back and see what you can do with out.

anakin_girl what do you think universal health care is? And I posted that thing about flying for the point of showing you that things cost money. I DO NOT WANT TO PAY FOR SOMEONE ELSE'S HEALTH INSURANCE that's what universal health care does.

 

Obama became President 365 to 172. By popular count, he beat McCain by 7 percentage points, which was a difference of 10 million votes.

The Senate now has 60 Democrats, only 40 Republicans.

The House has 257 Democrats, only 178 Republicans.

Universal Healthcare was one of the biggest reasons behind the overwhelming Democratic victory, cited by votes just behind the economy, and it was a huge part of the campaign. This didn't just "pop up," they knew a vote for a Democrat was a vote for Universal Healthcare.

We won, it's our turn. Obviously not everyone agrees with you, or the GOP would have won.

Also, Healthcare Reform will help our budget and fiscal outlook in the long term.

 

Ah, but you ARE paying ALREADY for someone else's health care - who do you think picks up the tab for the uninsured when they do go to the hospital? You don't see that cost, but you pay it. Now.

Personally, I'd also be happy to pay MORE in taxes if in return WE all got something for it.

And yes, I do have health insurance (employer paid), yes, I do have a (26") flat screen TV and a computer. I also have NO DEBT but a mortgage though I'm relatively low middle class (I would easily qualify for middle income housing in my area ) and depend only on my own earnings. I pay my way, and I'm happy to help our fellow citizens when they need a hand (notice the word is help, not support forever).

 

The government's largest focus for health care should be prevention. The majority of health care costs in the U.S. come from PREVENTABLE DISEASES. Aside from whether or not universal health care is needed, the largest savings could easily come from pevention efforts.

 

If most people were fine with their taxes going up to cover universal health coverage, then why did Obama have to campaign on the promise of not raising taxes for anyone making less than $250k, while also promising to work towards universal health care?

The simple fact is that most people who want universal coverage do want someone else to pay for it. You can't on one hand say that we need a progressive tax system, so that the rich pay disproportionate amounts, and then turn around and say that many people are okay with their taxes going up to fund it.

Kimball Kinnison

 

Sure you can. I'm fine with my taxes going up, as long as those of people poorer than me go up less and those of people richer than me go up more.

 

You can't on one hand say that we need a progressive tax system, so that the rich pay disproportionate amounts, and then turn around and say that many people are okay with their taxes going up to fund it.


I think that's the most illogical thing I've ever read from you. Of course I can say that. There are a lot of progressives in this country who are fine with their taxes going up for the purpose of paying for universal health insurance. I know this to be a fact. You can see it even in this thread.

"Many" people are comprised of people from a wide range of incomes, not just the rich.

 

Except, that's not how they're selling it! The progressives aren't saying "Your taxes will go up, but you will get universal health insurance". They're saying "We'll tax the rich to give you universal health insurance."

After all, are you earning more than $250k? If not, then why aren't you asking for a tax increase? Why instead are you advocating increasing taxes for the rich to pay for this sort of programs?

Kimball Kinnison

 

But KK, I didn't say anything about how they're selling it. I just said that there are many people who are okay with their taxes going up to pay for it. That's all.

 

I have skin in the game, and I'm not the only one who voted for Obama with the knowledge that it might increase my tax burden to pay for something as necessary as universal health care. We don't get much for our current hybrid capitalist/socialist health care system. Managed care is an inefficient private bureaucracy designed solely to suck billions of dollars out of the system before anyone ever gets treated for anything. We already ration healthcare in this country. We ration it by price, we ration it by the health of those looking for coverage, and we ration it by employment status. We ration it by age.

We all already pay for the healthcare of other people. We pay through taxes, we pay through our insurance rates and the social costs of obesity and unhealthy lifestyles. What we've got for our high priced luxury private healthcare system is the infant mortality and life expectancy of a second-rate country.

 

I read a stat yesterday that indicated insurance company profits are up almost 500% this decade. That's obscene, even if it's only half that.

 

You realize that someone else would be paying for your healthcare too, right? That's also what Universal Health Care Does.

 

Then why aren't you advocating raising your own taxes?

You say that you would be okay with having higher taxes, but that's not the same thing as calling for your taxes to go up. The only people you've actively called on to have their taxes raised are the wealthy. In short, your actions (calling for increased taxes for the rich) don't match your words (passively claiming you would be fine with higher taxes yourself).

Incidentally, you never answered any of my earlier questions about how you define fair, equal, equitable, or just. Do you ever plan to do that?

Kimball Kinnison

 

And what does the UK get with its National Health Service? Nine-month waits for arthritis treatment.

In Canada, their single-payer system results in rationing hip and knee replacement.

How can we expect it to be any different in the US?

 

We can't. My wife blew out her knee in a skiing accident last year. Luckily, we have great insurance. We got one of the top orthopedic surgeons in Chicago to get her a lovely cadaver ACL for the graft, she did two months of physical therapy before the surgery, another couple of months of therapy after the surgery. And in December she was ready to ski again. Her knee was literally better than new and still is.

But she didn't really need the surgery. She could walk fine without it. For a lot of people, a torn ACL is an inconvenience that they live with. The only thing really at stake for her was whether she would ever get back to Deer Valley. No one would have cried for my wife if she had to wait in line 9 months or even 2 years for a cadaver graft.

But look, we would have paid for this whether or not the insurance covered it, because she really wanted it and we could afford it.

There are ways to build a universal health care system to give a little extra health care and premium service for the rich, if that's what we're afraid will go missing.

 

KK, I have advocated raising my taxes. Several times. I would be glad to pay more taxes if it means good universal health care.

 

Not in this thread you haven't. All of your statements have been passive:

That's not saying "Raise my taxes" (which would be advocating it), it's simply saying "If my taxes went up, I wouldn't mind." (which is passive).

Again, that's not advocating it, it's merely saying that if it were offered you would take it. That's passive.

Again, you are merely saying that you are fine with it (passive again), not advocating that your taxes go up.

If you have actually advocated (i.e. actively called for, instead saying you would passively accept) your taxes to go up, where have you done so? Where is your criticism for those in power who aren't working to raise your taxes?

Finally, are you going to answer my earlier questions or not? They aren't going to go away, and ignoring them only shows that you don't think that your position is fair, just, or equitable.

Kimball Kinnison

 

I hereby passionately advocate raising my taxes to pay for universal health care. I actively, passionately, ecstatically, faithfully, humbly and ardently advocate raising my taxes for that purpose.

I think even you will understand that.

 

K_K, two questions:

Did you at any point support the wars in Afghanistan or Iraq?

If so, did you advocate raising your taxes to pay for said wars?

 

Because socialism. Sure, UHC countries pay less per capita for health care than Americans do, and have lower infant mortality rates, but the idea of MY MONEY helping some poor person is just abhorrent to many Americans.