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Full Series TCW: Are We Rooting For The Bad Guys?

Discussion in 'Star Wars TV- Completed Shows' started by GTPodcast, Feb 8, 2011.

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  1. GTPodcast

    GTPodcast Jedi Youngling star 1

    Registered:
    Feb 8, 2011
    Hi everyone;

    This is my first post here, and I thought I'd start out with a topic that I hope will generate a lot of discussion.

    So I'm only a few episodes into watching Season 2 of The Clone Wars, so maybe some of this gets addressed later, but... I keep having these nagging doubts about it. Not about the quality of the show, which I'm really enjoying, but about the moral stance of it. I keep getting the feeling that we are, or at least are supposed to be, rooting for people who are really kind of the bad guys here. A few things:

    1) The whole war really is just a big set-up by Palpatine to get himself into power. Couldn't we at least say, then, that there really is no good guy? Especially seeing as how whoever wins, the people of the Republic lose? In fact, the Republic does win the Clone Wars in the end. How'd that work out for them?

    2) Not to bring too many real-world politics into this, but all other things being equal, I tend to support separtatism/secessionism in general. Now, of course, sometimes all other things are not equal, and a secessionist movement is combined with some other principle that is particularly nasty. But in general, if some place has been in a political union, becomes dissatisfied with it, and wants to go its own way, I fail to see why it shouldn't be able to. Killing people just because they don't want to be in your club anymore is wrong. So what is so particularly bad about the Separatists that the Republic has to kill millions of sentient beings instead of just letting them go? Why do the allegedly peace-loving Jedi go along with this? I mean, what skin is it really off of Coruscant's nose if Geonosis or Serenno want to live their own way and make their own rules? Again - what about this is worth killing countless sentient beings over?

    Also, I know the Separatists do some bad things in the course of the war, but wouldn't you expect that the Republic had as well? All sides in all wars do bad things at times. We know that there are "heroes on both sides" - one would presume that there are villains on both sides as well. So again - how is the Republic that much better than the Separatists?

    3) I brought this up a little before, but let's not forget - the Republic and the people we see fighting for it do not exactly end up bringing freedom to the galaxy. When Dooku (in Attack Of The Clones) told Obi-Wan that the Senate was under the influence of the Dark Lord of the Sith, he was telling the truth. The Separatists had every valid reason to be suspicious of the Republic, and it would have been far better for them in the end if they had been able to break free from it. Sure, the Separatists were under the influence of Dooku, who was a bad guy, but his message resonated for perfectly valid reasons. And the Republic, of course, was under the influence of Palpatine, who was hardly better.

    In addition, let's remember what became of some of some of our friends from The Clone Wars. What happened to Palpy and Anakin is obvious. The clone troopers became the Stormtroopers. Are we forgetting the sight of them mowing down a Jedi temple full of young apprentices? Are we forgetting poor Uncle Owen and Aunt Beru? Our buddy Admiral Yularen, who Ahsoka cried over when he was injured, died on the Death Star - which means he was standing right behind Tarkin when he wasted Alderaan. And these are our good guys in this series?

    Anyhow, all this stuff just kinda makes me... wonder. Are we rooting for the bad guys here - if there is even a "good guy" and a "bad guy" in this story at all?
     
  2. FalorWindrider

    FalorWindrider Jedi Knight star 4

    Registered:
    Jun 7, 2010
    1.) You're going very deep into meta-knowledge with this first point, and at that, meta-knowledge of a future work. None of the characters have any idea just how bad Palpatine is. They see a Separatist movement led by corporate fat cats and a scheming aristocrat, their armies led by bloodthirsty thralls like Grievous and Asajj Ventress. We are shown the Separatists being generally more useless ruthless in general, and in particular, committing war crimes Grievous attacking the hospi
     
  3. Executor_of_Order66

    Executor_of_Order66 Jedi Youngling star 2

    Registered:
    Jul 14, 2009
    My loyalties lie with the Chancellor.

    But in all seriousness, I have often thought about this idea but I realize we cannot look at the clone wars with hinesight. We are only given the point of view of the Republic in this series and it is very hard to side with the Seps. Reminder the Seps are not the future rebellion. Although I can see why the Seps want to leave the Republic I don't see why they have to conquer territory also of worlds that want to be with the Republic like Ryloth and Christophsis.
     
  4. Robimus

    Robimus Jedi Grand Master star 5

    Registered:
    Jul 6, 2007
    That depends.

    I find myself not rooting for the Clone Troopers at almost every turn and will be very dissapointed if Rex follows through on Order 66.

    All in all the Jedi are still the good guys, so rooting for them and the Republic they serve isn't really rooting for the bad guys.

    That said we already have the knowledge of what is to come, which we can't avoid. Just remember that all these awesome clone troopers we're getting attached to eventually start murdering Jedi, from the masters to the younglings of the Order. So yeah if your rooting for them I think you may be rooting ofr the bad guys.
     
  5. GTPodcast

    GTPodcast Jedi Youngling star 1

    Registered:
    Feb 8, 2011
    Falor;

    Thank you for the thoughtful reply. However, I still disagree with you. A few points.

    None of the characters have any idea just how bad Palpatine is.

    Well, sure - but remember that my question was whether we, the audience, are rooting for the bad guys, which does assume that we know what we know from having watched the movies. The question of whether the characters inside the story should have figured out the "big picture" of what was going on is another (though just as interesting) question.

    Make no mistake, while the Sith are there behind the scenes, their presence is more clearly felt with the CIS

    Well yes, but isn't "felt" the key word there? Wasn't the fact that the Republic appeared to be the good guy - especially to the Jedi - just because it was in Palpatine's best interest for it to be that way? After all, that was how he got the a couple of important things done. One, he got the Jedi to fight a war that furthered his own aims. Second, he distracted the Jedi from paying attention to his own plans - for example, by doing a really detained investigation into how and why the clone army was ordered. And third, of course, the war depleted the ranks of the Jedi to dangerously low levels. He could hardly have done those things - have gotten the Jedi on his side enough to end up doing what he wanted them to do - unless he had the Republic appear to be a little more honorable. That doesn't mean that, in the end, their cause was more honorable.

    My position on it is this: it's always worth fighting to prevent.

    Always? May I remind you that the American Revolution was a separatist movement? That not many people shed tears about the breakup of the Soviet Union? That many people now support the right of Darfur to secede from Sudan, of Northern Ireland to leave the United Kingdom, and of Tibet to regain its independence from the People's Republic of China?

    Whether the CIS was or wasn't a good cause is something worth debating (maybe even in this thread), but I'd certainly respectfully disagree that preventing separatism/secession is always the right thing, and worth the cost in blood.

    The Separatists had very little reason to be truly rebellious. Look at its leadership. All of them are there to cut a piece of the Republic's power and influence for themselves.

    I've peeked ahead enough in Season 3 to have seen the episode "Heroes On Both Sides", which I think conclusively dispels the idea that the Separatist leadership was all just a bunch of greedy, power-hungry scumbags. Again, there were good people - and villains - in the leadership on both sides.

    Moreover, I question even the corruption of the Republic. We never see any senators on the take, accepting bribes, lining their pockets with government funds, nor do we see them do anything illegal. The most we can accuse the Senators of is representing the interests of their constituents - which was their job. OH! THE CORRUPTION!

    You know, Palpatine got an awful lot of power handed to him, and not all from Senators who were as dopey and gullible as Jar-Jar. I think we can safely assume the fact that a lot of them were corrupted by Palpy one way or another.

    Oh, and the members of the Senate who could honestly be said to be corrupt? THEY ARE NOW SEPARATISTS!

    There was a whole lot of "thunderous applause" in the Senate chamber when Palpy declared himself Emperor. Again, I think we can safely assume that there were reasons other than all those Senators falling in love with Palpy's pretty face.

    The weakness of the Republic was that it lacked political will - exemplified in its usage of clones, rather than a standing army.

    I thought the clones were actually a lot better army than the later non-clone Stormtroopers. No?

    The Jedi serve the Republic, and they have no love for the scum that runs the Separatist movement.

    Yeah, but isn't that exactly the problem? That the Jedi marched off to serve the Republic without asking enough questions about what was really going on and whet
     
  6. GTPodcast

    GTPodcast Jedi Youngling star 1

    Registered:
    Feb 8, 2011
    Reminder the Seps are not the future rebellion.

    Well, yeah, but they couldn't be. Not the leadership, anyway. But that's because Anakin slaughtered them all on Mustafar. They weren't doing anything besides pushing daisies by the time the Rebel Alliance was formed.
     
  7. GTPodcast

    GTPodcast Jedi Youngling star 1

    Registered:
    Feb 8, 2011
    All in all the Jedi are still the good guys

    I'd disagree just slightly. I think the Jedi always have good intentions. But then again - we all know what road those pave.
     
  8. FalorWindrider

    FalorWindrider Jedi Knight star 4

    Registered:
    Jun 7, 2010
    On the subject of corruption, the Senate agreeing with Palpatine is not necessarily corruption. Think, for a moment, outside the sphere of Jedi vs. Sith. Most people viewed Palpatine as a hero. Even if he did set off the Clone Wars and was the man behind the scenes, he didn't have direct agency in every little battle of the war, nor could he have directly influenced every Separatist warlord carving through Republic space. In other words, while he was the one who struck the match and set the fire, he didn't have total control over where it spread, how hot it burned, etc. Not every general had a personal com line to him, after all. Millions were still fighting on their own accord. The idea that someone, somewhere, was looking out for them was a comforting thought for Republic citizens who had long ago sacrificed military strength for the crutch of uneven diplomacy and the protection of the Jedi Order. Oh, and the Jedi Order? Distinctly prone to treason. Who would the average Republic citizen trust? This is why the Republic should have started a conscription. Then the Jedi would have had a viable power base from which to launch a coup.

    And as for the senators...does having political allies make you corrupt? Making deals is a part of the trade. Just because Palpatine is on good terms with most of the Senate does not mean he's handing them wads of cash.
     
  9. rumblewagon

    rumblewagon Force Ghost star 4

    Registered:
    Sep 24, 2004
    I'm rooting for the Bad Girls.
     
  10. Kualan

    Kualan Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    Dec 4, 2008
    This is certainly something I'd like to see. I'm sure if Tarkin ever makes an appearance, he'll fit nicely into this role. I can see him and whatever Jedi is present coming to blows over their respective methods; e.g. Trapped in a besieged city, Tarkin orders the execution of prisoners to save food for the troops - something that is morally opposite to a Jedi's belief, but militarily justifiable enough for Tarkin to retain his position.
     
  11. Swashbucklingjedi

    Swashbucklingjedi Jedi Grand Master star 5

    Registered:
    Oct 3, 2010
    This is interesting subject really- there is no good vs. evil situation in this war- there is secret evil and good allied to fight the evil supported with good as well..... I would say this is very much like WW2 actually when you think about it- capitalistic western world allied itself with soviet union to fight fascist oppression- still not many can count soviets as "good guys" if you know their war crimes- not that capitalists would be perfect 'good guys' but i think modern world generally accepts that Allies were fighting for better purpose- winning side (as usual) writes the history though.... anyway nazis are generally accepted as evil- and i of course agree such mindless slaughtering of innocent people is simply unforgivable- but soviets pretty much did the same thing... and even worse... concentration camps were invented by soviets not nazis you know...
    I'm from Finland and if you know your history after German attacked Poland and ww2 began- Soviet Union quietly used the opportunity to attack Finland- they used exactly same excuse as German for Poland- fired their own positions and claimed Finland attacked- later Germany helped Finland in Continuation War but in Winter War Finland was all alone- US even considered helping little country- would have been crazy situation since US and Soviets were allies against Germany on Finland they would've been enemies....

    ok enough of realworld history for now.....

    so in this war we have many factions as well spacenazis (future imperials like Tarkin) are those who are ready to do whatever is necessary to keep the order- they want to turn the republic to be militaristic organization where peace is kept by violence and fear- more of these guys are needed in this show- Mot-Not-Rab is close though

    peacekeepers want to end the conflict as soon as possible and keep the democracy and freedom alive- they focus on negotiations, saving lives in the middle of the conflict and other charity work instead of fighting- this faction is shattered- some count on jedi like Bail Organa and other future rebels Mothma, Amidala and Onaconda before his murder- some have chosen Dooku instead and believe CIS would be 'new republic' like Mina Bonteri or Kerch Kusi (Kusi even naively believes senate of CIS would be over corporation-rule:oops: ) also some of CIS- memberworlds join the rebellion later on like Sullust......


    greedy trade baronsThese claim they are outsiders and neutral but they are not- many of them openly support the CIS while they still keep their representatives in republic senate- Trade Federation and Banking Clan are two biggest of these and they have great influence over CIS through Dooku- they have given their armies, officers and warships to Dooku and Grievous. These guys profit from both sides and money is their motive- war is good business- as long as they would keep it out of their planets but jedi do all what they can to destroy this conspiracy within the republic.....
    ultimately i think they didn't care which side wins but Dooku promised slice of the galaxy for each corporation so most probably count for CIS-victory for now- they are supporting the CIS forces more and use their neutrality to align more worlds with CIS (like is Sphere of Influence or Supply Lines)

    Techno-Union is one guild which "neutrality" is unclear- Geonosians and Colicoids are builders of droids- allies of Dooku and 'neutral' guilds but openly seppies i think.... not sure about whole union

    then cloners of Kamino who are pretty much republicequivalent of Geonosians- they profit the war as well- as long as it stays out of Kamino... there is many allies for these guys in the senate- like Mee Deechi- who obviously also profit from the cloning somehow

    Palpatine is of course faction of his own and spacenazis and some peacekeepers root on him very strongly- he is link between these sides and symbol of the Republic struggle agains the seppies- he seems to rely on jedi but we know what he really does-
    Sidious is making his empire and everythi
     
  12. koonfan

    koonfan Jedi Knight star 4

    Registered:
    Oct 15, 2008
    Hey there, welcome to the boards! Nice opening topic! :D

    Small tip: After you're done posting, if you need to go back and make a change, look at your recent message(s). There should be an 'edit post' option. ;)

    What you raise is interesting indeed. I'd certainly hope we see a more nuanced view of things and ties to the Imperial Officers or heroes of the Separatists...not to wholly dominate adventure and action, but now and then as a reminder. :)

    As to your opening points...Well, the short answer would be that there is no really LARGE organisation of good to root for, but on a smaller case-by-case scale of good characters, the Republic generally has the better deal. Seemingly.

    1) Ah, yes, that's one of the limits of a 'prequel' story using these particular characters. I suppose the easiest way to find good is to root for the Jedi, or the characters you're particularly fond of. To their credit, while they're detached and sometimes ignorant of the galaxy at large, the Jedi still have mostly good intentions, and try to do right by their troops and the people. There are probably a fair number of honourable Confederates who do the same, but for now, this is (out-of-universe) the main 'sign' of who's 'good'. Yeah, they're ultimately playing into the hands of the Sith, they're enforcing martial law in some places, leading men to their death in others, but like you said: Good intentions. And some of those translate into...well, good. ;)

    2) Yeah, very true. You can't make a clean cut argument that the Republic is 'wholly good' or even 'better' than the Separatists. Heroes on Both Sides raises the idea that they aren't really that much different: They have the aggressive factions pushing for security and influence (e.g. taking planets for power or resources), and the moderates who want to leave well alone.
    Of course, that does raise the same issue that the Separatists are doing some bad stuff themselves, and have some equally or even more slimy people in positions of power. My guess is that both sides had people who would have inevitably jockeyed for more power ("Look! We have a rival! We must get stronger so they won't crush us! Who's with me?!"), whether it was the Republic or the Separatists.
    That doesn't justify that the Republic is trying to 'reclaim lost territory' and strike back, but it does at least establish that yes, they're BOTH in the wrong, so there isn't quite good. :p

    At this point, I would like to state my awareness that you're not saying "OMG TEH REPUBLIC IS TEH EVULZ", but rather that BOTH sides have their share of flaws, which I can respect. Sorry, when I type long replies, I worry that I lose my point or forget the tone of the discussion. XD

    3) It's an interesting question, really: If the war hadn't been a deadly and costly play by the Sith, could there be peace? Would the victor leave well alone and get back in shape? Not likely, but I think there's some possibility; Heroes on Both Sides seems to show a peace effort come dangerously close to working, until the Sith go out of their way to sabotage it. Oh well. More hypotheticals. :p

    So, in the long run, I guess we don't really have a wholly or even mostly good organisation to root for. What we DO have, though, is moments, fleeting though they may be, that can show the Jedi and the clones at their best. Or worst, depending on your point of view. But for my part, I'm a simple guy that goes "I like to think the Jedi are good.". So if I see them doing good (like going out into space to save your stranded troops), I'm happy. [face_laugh]

    Sorry if my reply doesn't contribute much more than a simple "look for the smaller moments". :p
     
  13. Swashbucklingjedi

    Swashbucklingjedi Jedi Grand Master star 5

    Registered:
    Oct 3, 2010
    I wouldn't limit that attitude towards jedi- if i see someone doing good it's always nice- clone, senator, droid, separatist, bounty hunter, farmer anyone.... if fictional character defends justice it is great to watch and we should root for them naturally "Let's go good guy!".... jedi try to do good but they won't succeed all the time- we know how this goes so i don't need to root for any side of this fictional war... problem in this series is usually that "good guys" and "bad guys" are not equally succeeding.... so my sympathies are usually on the wrong side :D
    I'm happy to see how Grievous succeeds for example.... guy is evil but he is beaten up so hardly that i couldn't really cry for Nahdar Vebb for example instead i was just like A4-D "Let's go master kill him!" [face_laugh]

    there should be more equal fight- so justice would feel great... now it is like "good guys win again[face_tired]"

    in Ryloth trilogy for example we saw how seppies were evil so i rooted for clones "destroy those damned clankers and capture greedy Tambor!" and it was great trilogy to watch and my sympathies were on right side for once[face_laugh]

    Now get us 'Republic does evil stuff- arc' so we can freely root for the droids- get those "plastic boys-damned meatbags" [face_laugh] ...

    Nightsisters really made me feel bad for Ventress but Monster made me feel bad for Savage... these personal revenge-stories were great but Witches ended oddly so.... i don't know if even Savage is worth of rooting for anymore[face_thinking]


    I just watch the show and see how it goes:p
     
  14. Robimus

    Robimus Jedi Grand Master star 5

    Registered:
    Jul 6, 2007
    Still what does that make them? If Obi-Wan is not the "good guy" now then why is he 20 years later?


     
  15. Only-One Cannoli

    Only-One Cannoli Ex-Mod star 7 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

    Registered:
    Aug 20, 2003
    I hate when I leave lacwac for a week and then come back straight into a thread like this.
     
  16. Swashbucklingjedi

    Swashbucklingjedi Jedi Grand Master star 5

    Registered:
    Oct 3, 2010
    ummm... what.... Obi-Wan is good guy now and later but Anakin is good guy now but not 20 years later.... what this has to do with other jedi?- Jedi is not same as good guy but jedi tend to be good guys in SW-stuff.....
     
  17. grungebunny

    grungebunny Jedi Grand Master star 3

    Registered:
    Jul 20, 2005
    Don't overestimate Obi-Wan's goodness. He's a good guy but he's not a nice guy at the best of times. He clearly believes in episode one that he's above other lifeforms, especially Jar Jar. I know Jar Jar is a fool but you don't come out and say you don't want any more pathetic lifeforms on board. That's just cruel. He maniplates Anakin on behalf of the council into going against his moral decency 'for the greater good', which Palpatine latched onto. He used Padme to find Anakin and reveals himself at the worst possible moment. He manipulates Luke into training so he can kill his father, but he won't tell Luke this truth to avoid complications. Luke succeeds by going against Obi-Wan and Yoda's advice, becoming wiser than them in the process.

    He's always a character to not be taken at face value but what makes him a good guy are his limits. Anakin was a good guy, saving his wife was a noble intention but he had no limits.


     
  18. GTPodcast

    GTPodcast Jedi Youngling star 1

    Registered:
    Feb 8, 2011
    All;

    There are some great, and very thoughtful replies here, and I don't have much time to reply before I have to head out for class (my students need help getting through MLK's Letter From A Birmingham Jail), but I'll make a couple general points before I go, and post more later.

    There are a couple of fine lines I'm straddling in asking whether the Republic is "the bad guy". First, there's the idea that good people with good intentions may end up fighting for a bad cause - either because they're deceived into doing so, or because they have a certain blindness to what's really going on. This is what I believe is largely the case among the Jedi. Obi-wan can still be a "good guy" as an individual, while fighting for "the bad guys". We see this in our own world - I think Erwin Rommel and Erich Hartmann, for example, were noble and honorable men with good intentions, but I still deplore the Nazi cause. I think Robert E. Lee was a noble and honorable man with good intentions, but I still deplore slavery.

    Second, there's the idea that a victory by "the good guys" may lead to bad unintended consequences later on. I think that may actually have been the case with the Rebel Alliance's victory. This may raise some hackles, but ask yourself this - if the rebellion had never happened (or if Yavin had been blown to bits by Tarkin), would the people of the Galaxy actually have been better off in the end by having an intact Imperial fleet and a couple of operational Death Stars between them and the Yuuzhan Vong when they showed up? Would that actually have saved more lives and prevented more misery and suffering than getting rid of Palpatine did? Maybe.

    But, and this is an important point - I don't just think the Republic's victory leading to the Empire was just a case of unintended bad consequences. First, the consequences were very much intended - by Palpatine, whose plan this was all along, and who played the whole galaxy, including the Jedi, like a cheap fiddle in order to get into power. Every time you see our heroes cheering a victory somewhere just remember - Palpatine made this happen in order to gain power. Then ask yourself what's to cheer about.

    Secondly, I have some real problems even with the Republic's stated goals, and even its methods. I've talked a little about the goals above. As for the methods, as yourselves this: The Republic uses human beings it regards as "throwaway people" in order to fight its battles - people bred just to fight and die for this cause. People who (as we have seen) have real emotions, and feel real pain and fear. People who no Jedi ever seems to care whether they might want something else out of life other than endless war and inevitable death for a cause they hardly benefit from (Do clones get to vote in Republic elections? Is there a Senator representing the clones? My guess is no). The Separatists use machines. Which fights more humanely, again?

    Anyhow, off to class.
     
  19. CT-867-5309

    CT-867-5309 Chosen One star 7

    Registered:
    Jan 5, 2011
    I agree. I find the whole situation very strange. It's all about corruption, but the Separatists are the corrupt ones. I think it would have made more sense if people like Bail Organa, Mon Mothma and Padme Amidala were the ones who wanted to secede, which they ended up doing anyway. What do the Separatists have to complain about? They ARE the corruption, they are the ones profiting from it, they are the ones getting away with everything. The only reason they have to secede is extreme greed, they want to take their personal power to the next level. The people that serve the Repulic to the best of their ability only to have corruption negate their efforts are the ones who should want to secede.
     
  20. GTPodcast

    GTPodcast Jedi Youngling star 1

    Registered:
    Feb 8, 2011
    What do the Separatists have to complain about? They ARE the corruption

    Again, I hate to disagree, but... the Separatists ARE the corruption? And Palpatine and his coterie aren't? Remember, it was the Republic Senate that voted Palpatine the power to create the Grand Army of the Republic. It was the Republic court system that acquitted Nute Gunray over and over again. It was the Republic Senate that made Palpatine Emperor, and gave him a standing o worthy of a Led Zeppelin reunion when they did.

    Yes, we never actually see Palpy hand someone a stack of Republic credits in a brown paper bag, but I figured it was pretty much a given that he had corrupted the vast majority of the Senate by hook or by crook. Again - when Dooku told Obi-wan in AoTC that the Dark Lord of the Sith had taken hold of the Republic, he was telling the truth, and the problem was that Obi-wan refused to believe him, or even seriously consider the possibility that he was right.

    Remember, the Separatists' goal was to get away from Palpatine and his rule. How is that a bad thing? Wasn't that basically what the Rebel Alliance rebelled against as well? Couldn't you even say that the Separatists were smarter than the rebels, because they saw Palpatine for what he really was a long time before the likes of Bail Organa or Mon Mothma did? Or at least, were willing to do something about it long before they were?
     
  21. hanimal

    hanimal Jedi Youngling star 1

    Registered:
    May 31, 2000
    It's an interesting issue, especially in light of what we've been discussing in the Mortis episode threads. Are Jedi really the good guys, or has their extreme light-sided-ness caused them to tip out of balance in that direction, just like the sith (by their very existance) are out of balance on the dark side. Can we call an order of people who take children away from families without thier own choice "good"?

    Good job, GTPodcast on bringing up a very central issue to The Clone Wars. Is it possible to truely call any participant in a conflict "the good" one? I think not. It's my belief that violence is "out of balance" in relation to sentient beings. Doing harm to any sentient causes one, no matter how altruistic, to step away from the "good."
     
  22. FalorWindrider

    FalorWindrider Jedi Knight star 4

    Registered:
    Jun 7, 2010
    Except not really. Just because one is against Palpatine does NOT make one the "good guy." Look at Dooku, who is a wealthy aristocrat, and, according to many, many EU sources, an unrepentant racist. Look at Nute Gunray. The Republic acquitted him, yes, but that calls into question the conduct of the prosecution. We are not told whether he was acquitted or whether one or more of his three trials was a mis-trial. Given the fact that much of the evidence against him was ironclad, I'd think at least one of them was due to prosecutors flubbing up. The Separatists are ALLIED to THE most corrupt individuals in the Galaxy - Nute Gunray, Wat Tambor, all of them. To support them is to support an unrepentant thief because the police didn't jail them, even if some of them are dirty.

    Again, I fail to see how Palpatine establishing legitimate political relationships is corruption. THAT'S POLITICS! If it were anyone, but Palpatine, we wouldn't be having this discussion. It is a double-standard levied against Palpatine simply because he is a Sith. If the Jedi wanted to outmaneuver Palpatine, waiting until his cadre encompassed most of the Senate was the wrong move.

    The Rebel Alliance is totally different from the Separatist Movement. They are seeking to rebuild the Republic, not shatter it with separatism. The Separatist movement would have shattered the Galaxy into many smaller states warring against one another, with peaceniks like Padme caught in the middle until someone finally has enough and decides to string her up as well, to send a message to a castrated and utterly powerless Senate. The Galaxy would have been ruled by corporate oligarchs, and everything would have become worse. I doubt the Rebellion would have sprung from the Confederacy - the ideals of the Rebellion are distinctly Republican, not Confederate, in nature.
     
  23. shanerjedi

    shanerjedi Jedi Padawan star 4

    Registered:
    Mar 17, 2010
    Just as there are heroes on both sides, there are also villains.

    In a misguided way, the separatists were the forerunner to the alliance. But they had different responses to the corrupt nature of the republic.
     
  24. Darth_Tarkus

    Darth_Tarkus Jedi Padawan star 4

    Registered:
    Jan 10, 2011
    No disrespect intended, but I cannot figure this out...
     
  25. koonfan

    koonfan Jedi Knight star 4

    Registered:
    Oct 15, 2008
    I think it might, in spirit, be a little like how Rommel the Desert Fox, despite being a Nazi, was still widely respected as a competent, worthy leader.

    Come to think of it, Yularen (or rather, officers like Yularen) has been compared to Rommel. :p
     
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