Full Series TCW: Are We Rooting For The Bad Guys?

To the OP: Keep in mind that Separatists were also engaging in ruthless blockades of poor planets. The idea is that they were essentially using politics and Secessionism as a mask for their corporate profiteering. The Republic is fighting their practices as much as their intent.

 

Which ones are you talking about? Naboo? First, Naboo isn't poor. Second, that was ten years before the Separatist movement started.

And anyhow, that can hardly be worse than storming the Geonossians' planet and burning them to death with flamethrowers.

And Palpatine was using the Republic as a mask to take over the galaxy and achieve absolute power. This is better?

 

Definitely not. I was just saying that the reason the Republic would see itself as correct was this reason.

 

The Separatists ? at least in military and ?inner circle? leadership respects (Separatist Council) ? are war criminals plain and simple. They starve populations, perform genocide, enslave and enact terror bombing campaigns. Despite the Separatist democratic face (put forth by Dooku) it is clear to the Republic that there are corporations running the show, who are in turn being run by the Sith. Ultimately the Separatists are attempting to establish a new Empire under the false mask of a democracy.

In this regard I am assuming you also think it was wrong for the Allies to use flamethrowers against enemy positions within enemy territory during the Second World War? It is war, and during war certain measures must be taken. There is a difference between a War Crime and what you are talking about.

No it isn?t any better, however you have to remember the Republic itself isn?t clearly being manipulated. The Republic, although corrupted, is still a relatively free, democratic and just society. War crimes would be far and few between (especially under the Jedi) and the democratic ideal is generally upheld. Unfortunately the system is weathered and is in need of dramatic reform. The Chancellor however stops this, establishes the Separatist movement and drives the democratic Republic unwillingly into tyranny. The Republic, at the end of the day, is still just and democratic. The system is falling apart however it is clear that the Confederacy is a far more tyrannical regime.

 

'The Separatists ? at least in military and ?inner circle? leadership respects (Separatist Council) ? are war criminals plain and simple'.

From one point of view they are, yes. But you're going to find that many of the truths we cling to depend greatly on our own point of view.

'They starve populations, perform genocide, enslave and enact terror bombing campaigns'.

Another point of view could see forcing a planet to stay in a political union it no longer wishes to be a part of as "enslaving" that planet.

Another point of view could say that burning Geonossians to death when they were just trying to defend their planet from being enslaved in that manner amounted to terror tactics and torture.

'In this regard I am assuming you also think it was wrong for the Allies to use flamethrowers against enemy positions within enemy territory during the Second World War?'.

I'm not too happy with that, actually. It makes it worse when you're invading the territory of someone else who just wants you to leave their territory so they can run their affairs in peace. I'd say the closer analogy would be to American use of napalm during the Vietnam War.

"It is war, and during war certain measures must be taken".

There's no end of the horrors that could justify.

"No it isn?t any better, however you have to remember the Republic itself isn?t clearly being manipulated".

Pardon me, but that's exactly what's going on in the prequel/Clone Wars time frame.

"The Chancellor however stops this, establishes the Separatist movement and drives the democratic Republic unwillingly into tyranny".

Seemed pretty "willing" to me. Again, Padme described the applause that Palps got when he declared himself Emperor as "thunderous".

 

I agree with previous comment- Republic was already like an Empire when Palpy made his clarification of new order whatever.... it was already "evil" as Padmé points out- it happens during this war-
it didn't happen unwillingly- no way..... war made Republic to want order and peace and they were ready to choose Empire it was not unwillingly made to be Empire- Palpatine has strong support in the senate and amongst people- dark times changed that and galaxy was split in two.....
Jedi were silently accepting the evil when they were looking fo the sith -it was not jedi who were 'evil' but neither they did fight against injustice anymore not when it was portrayed by the Republic.....

- but thing is that we have seen seppies doing warcrimes (Ryloth-invasion, Pantoran blockade, Blue Shadow Virus, terrorist strike to Coruscant powerplant) So it's easy to say Republic is good when fighting against that- but what if we would see Republic portraying warcrime for once- I think it would be great and interesting...

still in the end it is clear seppies are bad guys now- Grievous, Ventress, Dooku, Gunray, Tambor, Argente, Shu Mai, San Hill...... they care about themselves not anyone else- jedi however are of course trying to do good things and they fight war honorably and sacrifice themselves rather than civilians (Supply Lines for example) still there are heroes on both sides and evil is everywhere.... many supporters of CIS may have good intentions and they ally themselves with "lesser evil" to fight "the greater one"- or so they think- i don't say seppies are same as 'bad guys' no way- we know how war ends- jedi and seppies are fooled both and they perish......

One guy who is soon coming to join Republic heroes of TCW is going to be quite a villain later ....so it seems after good seppies we will be introduced some bad republicans- others than corrupted senators....

Just makes this bit more interesting ....

What if some arc with seppies as obviously good guys for once- no jedi or anything just some Republic officers commanding clones to portray atrocities to civilians of CIS-aligned world- and few separatist heroes defending their homes from ravaging clone patrols until reinforcements of CIS-droids can arrive.... different point of view and imperial foreshadowing at the same time....

 

In that case you would have to find brutality, slavery and war crimes acceptable, whilst you would have to find the Republic?s by ?the rules of war? to be bad. I think it is clear that the Separatist oppress and are far more evil than the Republic. What ?war crimes? and ?unnecessary warfare? has the Republic engaged in? They have liberated oppressed planets and always ensured minimal collateral damage.

You forget who enacted war here. The Separatists engaged in aggressive war... the Geonosians are a major aggressor in the Confederacy. Unless you think the Republic should simply hold its borders then they have every right to invade Geonosis... especially since it is a military target. Did the Western Allies ?enslave? Germany and Japan? Should they have simply got to Germany?s borders and said ?you know what we?re just going to go home now?. These guys are trying to destroy your state, are actively attempting to do it, and you?re just going to let them continue? You don?t ?not destroy an enemy factory? because it?s in enemy territory. If you don?t destroy the factory guess what... those weapons are going to be the ones shooting at you.

...as were the Japanese and Germans during the Second World War. You don?t stop when you enter the enemies territory. Yes they are trying to defend their homes however they are the main armaments nation of the Confederacy. They have engaged in a conspiracy to create war, created war and are now heeding the consequences. If you invade another territory, are subsequently driven back to the point you are defending your homes are you suddenly the innocent victim?

Really? They want to ?run their affairs in peace?? I would say an extensive military build-up with the intent of bullying the Republic into surrender and eventual annexation into your ?coalition Empire? is not a definition of a nation attempting to simply develop independence. The Geonosians engaged in aggressive warfare with the intent on the eventual destruction of the Republic. If Soviet Russia was building up its military with the intent of smashing into Western Europe, war broke out and it invaded, would the Allies have been ?war criminals? for invading a city which supplied the front with armaments? No. It?s a war. These guys are the aggressors not some innocent nation.

These guys had every intention of obliterating the Republic during AOTC. They literally declare war in AOTC and are subsequently eliminated. They rise up, begin to ?attack the Republic? again, and you think they are the victim?

Not to the people in-universe. The Republic is a dying system, but a more democratic one than the Separatists system. The Republic upholds the democratic system more or less... Palpatine shouldn?t really be factored in. The Republic is fighting for freedom... ultimately even the Republic looses. Only Palpatine and the Sith win the war.

You must understand the situation. Do you actually think

 

clones are clones- not good not bad..... for now most are 'good'... "democracy in Republic" is going more and more similar or equal to the "democracy in CIS"
there is good guys on both sides and Palpatine is in ultimate control of both- it doesn't matter who you are rooting for you are inevitably rooting for both good guys and bad guys- but yes Republic has more of these "good guys" on their side- so mathematically thinking rooting for Reps is rooting for "better guys"
ultimately that doesn't help though CIS was destroyed- and Empire took over- in that war situation is easier since there is no secret sithlords in control of Rebel Alliance....

 

I am curious: if the Republic was in its death throes (not counting Sids whipping up a war) - HOW would/should it be reformed?

 

So what is so particularly bad about the Separatists that the Republic has to kill millions of sentient beings instead of just letting them go?

The Separatist were building up a large army, they would have attacked systems that were part of the Republic. It was a no-win situation.

 

just new chancellor (Bail Organa, Padmé, Mon Mothma?) and new election of all senators on every worlds to eliminate corrupted ones (wouldn't work perfectly but ties of someone like Gume Saam are probably well known and people wouldn't choose them again)- corporations out from senate and under heavy regulation even by force if needed- their armies away- army of republic to keep the order reorganised from willfull recruits instead of clones- cloning of slaves is ethically questionable....

It would be pretty much like New Republic without Empire.... it would require strong chancellor with good ideals and some actions that would be harsh....

We must remember that Palpatine holds all keys to this mess and he would've been able to solve it peacefully- but of course he didn't want to- he would be unable to rule the Galaxy if he solves this conflict before everything goes to hell- so he masks himself by organising opposition to himself making it look like senate is unable to agree- really it is because of him leading the both sides- Let's say Palpatine wants something good done- all senators would naturally agree- but for some their secret friend Sidious says "oppose Palpatine" and if 50 percent of senators is under his control then 50 percent of senate is against Palpy- in reality everyone is working for same guy they just don't know it- Palpatine managed to neutralise senate- 50/50 so senate cannot make decisions at all.... then 51/49 he can push irrational bill through if he has that 51 percent.....

rest of the senate is freethinking non-corrupted senators but slowly Palpy has built this group of puppetsenators he can control- and when needed they oppose every act that makes sense- it looks like Senate is half-idiotic and Palpatine can say "bill didn't go through -I cannot dictate this state -i love the democracy" and you see senate says no- isn't that democracy?
Palpatine abuses democracy through corruption and fear and makes it sure every corrupted senator is safe from justice- as long as needed- then suddenly he/she lives out his/hers usefullness and Lord Sidious is 'unable to help' and one's corruption is revealed- making it look like one more villain is captured and exterminated as soon as revealed- but really it is just Palpy's way to fool people to reveal them one by one- puppetsenators doesn't know how Palpatine can reveal them- and he tries to make it as confusing as possible so no one could see connection between Sid and Palps....

then of course he can easily tip the scales every now and then- suddenly entire senate agrees.... so he can slowly solve this crisis until during ROTS he puts all big wheels turning and Republic is not Republic anymore.....

 

There's another way to say that - which is that war corrupts everything it touches. Just being in a war at all brings everything closer to the dark side. The problem is that the Jedi charged into this war full force, without ever seriously even asking if it was a bad idea. Through either incompetence or bad judgment, they allowed the Republic, the galaxy, and even themselves to become seriously tainted. Frankly, they should have just said no to the whole thing.

I think "Heroes On Both Sides" was an attempt at that.

You can fight an unjust war as cleanly as you like - it's still an unjust war and fighting it still makes you a bad guy.

I think the Republic should simply hold its borders. Killing people just because they don't want to be in your club anymore is evil.

You say that as though there was no "conspiracy to create war" on the Republic side. Pardon me, but where did all those clones come from? If that wasn't a "conspiracy to create war", I fail to see what could be.

"Surrendering" what, exactly? You sound like the Sean Hannity of the Old Republic. The CIS never intended to annex Coruscant or Corellia. They just wanted to be left alone, and with the above-mentioned clone army (that somehow got created without a "conspiracy to crate war") staring them in the face, of course they built up their military.

I see no evidence of this at all. Show me some.

They declared war in AOTC? And Yoda brought a few thousand clones to Geonosis to do what - bake cupcakes?

You gotta be kidding me. Talking about the Republic during the Clone Wars without "factoring in" Palpatine is like talking about Nazi Germany without "factoring in" Hitler.

 

I don't think jedi would've gained anything by not taking action - senate was going to war- CIS was strong enough to threaten the republic- without jedi, republic would've been just bit weaker but war was inevitable and destruction of the jedi was inevitable at this point- - by abandoning the republic and galaxy, which was suffering, jedi would've gained much enemies, and with two armies Sidious could've wiped them out any time-

Mandalorian Wars in KOTOR showed this situation- jedi didn't take action- republic shattered, splinter group of jedi lead by Revan took action- they became heroes but were corrupted and returned as villains- that was not necessarily only way it could've happened- but probably if council would've said "no" to clone war same would've happened- some jedi wouldn't obey orders and would join the republic forces- passive jedi would be thought as cowards and traitors and republic would be reorganised anyway- jedi would lose their support in senate and they would all die when Empire comes..... plus it would've been against the nature of the jedi to leave the people of the republic to suffer....

 

Ultimately I would like to make clear this war is a massive shade of grey. Both sides are controlled are by the same man and organization and are ultimately not really any more innocent then the other. However, when looking at this war, the good and bad guys are drawn on different lines. It is drawn on how the war is conducted. It is very clear the Republic are playing ?by the book?, whilst the Confederacy are enacting war crimes at left right and centre. No sides are free of fault, however it is clear that the Republic are the ?better?, whilst the Confederacy are the ?worse?...

What if Hitler was secretly controlling the Allied powers in World War 2? Without the knowledge of any diplomats (except a select few) or any soldiers? Are you still the bad guy?

You expect the Republic to hold its borders whilst the enemy builds the shotgun which will clean their head right off? Are you saying that you shouldn?t try and stop the shotgun being built? You?d just let it happen, and when the round hits you in the face you just go 'all well'?

No ?conspiracy to create war? from any Republic senators or leaders except Palpatine who was really the master of both sides. The Republic had obviously no intension of war, whilst the Confederacy had every intention of it. Where the allies part of a ?conspiracy to create war? because they build-up their military in response to German militarism? Did France and Britain somehow have a ?conspiracy to create war?? No, they, like the Republic, were taking precautionary measures against an aggressive enemy.

That?s what the Confederacy places at its face. It says it wants independence but really it doesn?t... that?s what the whole point of the ?puppet? Separatist Senate is. It is apparent Dooku and the other ?puppeteers behind the curtain? make it clearly known that they plan on bullying the Republic into absolute submission. This could either mean complete annexation or literally dismember the Republic like the Allies did to Germany in the Treaty of Versailles. The Confederate ?slogan? is that they want independence, but really Dooku, Sidious and the other ?corporate leaders? want galactic domination. You also seem to this the military build-up was in response to the clone army... it is clear that, other than Dooku, the Confederacy had no idea that the Republic had a secret army... they were building up their military with the intension of ?bullying? the Republic. How can you justify this military build up against a defenceless Republic.

Dooku and the corporations sign a treaty where in they pledge an aggressive military build-up in the hope the Republic will bow to ?any demands we make?. Given the nature of these corporations do you really think they would do anything but obliterate the Republic? At the very least they would render it useless and eventually allow it to decay to the point it naturally slips into the Confederate fold.

Last time I c

 

Please.... let Hitler out of this such parallels are not working- you can never know if Stalin was in fact Palpatine and Hitler Dooku .... as far as i know Hitler was not sith lord so damn it use Alexander the Great or Napoleon for once.... ww2 had no no secret sith lord behind it....

this is not WW2 damn it- we can find parallels but we cannot use ww2 history as argument- there is no antisemitism in CIS or anything these parallels are cripple arguments....

 

Normally I support your opinions Swash, however I must passionately and respectfully disagree here. The point is that World War 2 and Hitler are common knowledge, and bringing other dictators into it will likely suffer from people not knowing much about the topic. GTPodcast used the analogy of Hitler and the Nazi?s and I merely extrapolated... it was used to prove a point. We are not delving into controversial topics; we are merely saying if ?x? dictator was this then would you be that (etc, etc)... Hitler was merely used for familiarity sake. It wasn?t my intent ? nor do I necessarily think it was GTPodcast?s ? to actually debate World War 2 or Hitler... it was merely an analogy used to familiarize with the topic... and Hitler is, whether you like it or not, what most people are familiar with.

I could use many different examples... Stalin, Napoleon, Julius Caeser, Pol Pot, Chairman Moa, Genghis Khan, Ivan the Terrible, Hussein... however I am unsure if others would need to research or immediately understand...

I personally think, by you emphasizing a negative point, that you derail a thread. I only use Hitler or any other real world device as a metaphor and I specifically avoid actually debating the real world topic... if this debate degenerates into such I will not debate it. I specifically ensure that it is only used as a metaphor... I personally have no need to debate the topic with anyone to be honest since this isn?t the place. Last time I checked, when Hitler was brought up, it was not me but you who delved into an unnecessary discourse. I made sure I didn?t comment any further.

The analogies I used were in fact very removed from Hitler... it was merely just an example of aggressive nations conspiring to create war, and nations adapting to this military-build-up... but anyway...

As always, with the kindest regards and respect... however I don?t really think we need to have it immediately called out as sacrilege.

Regarding your last point... World War 2 was a lot more than anti-Semitism... but I digress...

This is a good question. Essentially I think they needed to create a strong state with no to little influence from corporations.

The Republic was going through what democracy?s inevitably degenerate into; it simply stopped to function. I think they needed to tear down the rotting structure and rebuild it... a first step would have been a centralized military... this would have enabled protection of the smaller planets from more powerful ?states? and corporations. Another step would have been to ?crack down? on corruption... by doing away with truly influential corporations and having more rigorous systems in place to punish those involved in corrupt actions... someone like Bail Organa, Padme or Mon Mothma would have been able to keep the Senate in line and not be swayed an bullied by the Senate...

Essentially a democracy without rule of corporations would have been enough to reform the Republic.

The Republic was an old rotting scaffold beginning to teeter on collapse. The Empire built a sturdy column of tyranny within this system and allowed the Republic to disintegrate around it, leaving nothing but the tyrannical Empire. What should have happened is that they should have rebuilt it from the ground up replacing old system as they built upwards... the end result would have been a Second Republic far stronger built out of steel rather than wood... now the termites of corruption have a far more difficult time destroying it. A coating of military would have kept this structure strong...

 

Just like last time when i took it to 'unnecessary discourse' I just want to remind that even though americans see it so- ww2 was not conflict between good and evil -it was conflict of different views and extremist views were really powerful at the time, fascism and communism- it was for americans defending their country and the world from fascist ideals and war for western democracy which is a noble cause yes- but communists were also aggressive party and they were allies of capitalists only because they needed to get rid of fascism- common goals made alliance to be only way to win the war- but it was 'unholy alliance' and cold war was natural continuation of it- communists were -just like nazis- building a huge empire for their ideals and for their dictator- Stalin's U.S.S.R. was nothing like communist-utopia should've been according to Marx and those guys- it was very much like Nazi Germany in many ways- they were not heroes- more like villains- and yet they were allies

of course -you are american yes?- for you allies mean america's own boys- and of course 'good guys'.... but it was not so easy really- you have american point of view when talking about "generally known and generally accepted"- but yes Hitler is most well known dictator in U.S. and generally in the world but i dislike the way bringing him as "bad" guy and then making allies as "good guys" sounds to me somekind of communist-propaganda since soviets were also "allies"-
I see WW2 having villains on both sides- Hitler was @$$h*le but so was Stalin....


Then of course someone can bring up Hiroshima and Nagasaki....again.... i wouldn't call them heroic deeds either and they were done by U.S. but well many americans do think they were right choice- maybe they were it definitely ended the war..... but blowing up civilians for 'good cause' .... huh starts to sound much like this "evil" of Hitler- he was not killing jews for 'bad cause' either- he claimed they are problem- of course he was wrong jews are normal people but still were these japanese civilians then guilty for the war? i think not....

I think we are going to very grey zone when talking about 'good' and 'evil' in real world

 

So how does Yoda compare to Stalin or Hitler? Your saying the Jedi are not the "good guys" because war is complex, I say it boils down to intentions.

Thats the question here SBJ, if your going to paint the Jedi as in the same light as those two.

 

Me? Well now you have gotten me wrong- Yoda is Churchill without cigar Hey i just said we shouldn't do WW2 parallels since even though WW2 has some similarities with the Clone Wars they are two different wars with two different sides- altogether- Yoda is good guy he wants good for the galaxy but he makes mistakes and when going to war on Geonosis- jedi are walking towards their destruction.....

What i was saying is that WW2 was not good vs. evil- Clone Wars is neither completely but it has more pure good and pure evil sides- but mixed- jedi are good,some senators, officers and so on are good, greedy seppies are bad, sith are bad and spacenazis are bad but for now one sith leads boths sides and bad seppies and good jedi and other good guys are lead to destruction

Jedi are not nazis or communists that's definitely not what i meant

 

World War II was a fight between relatively morally neutral countries (the US still had segregation, the British Empire was still alive, and everyone knows about the USSR), but considering who they were fighting against, pretty much every value of Western civilization was at stake. The price of failure meant that all of Europe, Asia, Africa, and eventually, the Americas would be under the heel of Nazism. If the Allies were gray, the Axis was the darkest of black, morally. That doesn't change the big picture of the war, even if the only people fighting on the Eastern front were Soviets being slaughtered by the thousands, not the stereotypically noble Western armies.

It's a stupid comparison for the Clone Wars. But again, even if the Republic is more authoritarian than in previous years (and let's face it, they were too nice for their own good), their conduct is still miles ahead of the Separatists.

 

I am not American; I am an Australian. So I don?t believe I have an ?American? point of view, but rather I prefer to think I have an a lot more objective point of view of the war. History ? specifically the Second World War and Nazism ? are my passions and I am not attempting to speak before knowing what I?m talking about. I know that in most wars grey is exists everywhere... this includes World War 2. I know Hitler isn?t the pure devil we often mistakenly paint him as. I know the Allies were guilty of War crimes (The Dresden Bombings for example). Anyway, FalorWindrider essentially summed up what I would have said perfectly:

The point is I think you have unnecessarily derailed this topic. Fact of the matter is nothing I said was necessarily unworthy of contrast to the Clone War. GTPodcast brought up Hitler and I thought it was a reasonable contrast to get the point across. I am not ignorant of the facts of the Second World War... it was simply used to portray a point. German rearmament and the Western Allied responce? I don?t see how that isn?t a worthy contrast to Inter-War Europe...

Sorry to be so blunt with this Swash... nothing personal in any of this just so you know.

Now can we please get back on topic?

 

Yeah.... just please try to avoid ww2-parallels in future they bring these problematic historical contradictions with them and they have no place in pure moral discussion when talking about fiction like this..... And even though i share many opinions with Falor Windrider- i'm still resisting his radical views of military terror being good ruling(assassinations of senators etc.) there is delicate balance between real security and oppression and i think Falor's personal views really are closing that border... he has good points and republic is bit too "nice"- but problem is that when someone has power- misusing it is always too easy- power must not be centered too much to the one person/little group or someone can too easily take it and misuse it- that's why democratic system with all it's flaws is better- it's slow and not so effective in solving crisis' but in the long run it's better than effective militarism and extremely machiavellian politics- there is balance needed to be found between too nice and too tough and i think Falor really is representing "too tough" side- it's easy to slip towards terror and oppression....

Well in-universe comparison for once- politics is much like the Force- there is light side (freedom/equal opportunities) and dark side (oppression/rule by fear) but neither is working perfectly- too much dark, too much light... too nice- too "lightsided state" will easily corrupt- (pacifistic Mandalore ) no one is keeping peace and order and danger of violent rule or oppression (darkness) is big since there is no defense..... that's why balance need to be found between extremes- here is where opinions differ- where balance is- what is too close to the dark- that border is very blurred....

 

Machiavellian politics aren't ne

 

You take this business far too seriously- Star Wars is fairytale more like politically realistic story that's why it shouldn't too much focus on politics anyway... season3 really took this too far- i'm ok with few eps like Supply Lines, Sphere of Influence and Heroes on Both Sides sometimes -but such a marathon of politics with some awfully weak representations like Corruption - was unneeded- politics in TCW can be fairytale monarchs vs. evil greedy slimeballs and militaristic blackshirts kind of slightly unrealistic stuff- but it shouldn't be this central as it was during first half of season3....

 

See, again you add Godwin into the discussion. This is the kind of thing that disgusts me about this show. It tries to shove an overly-idealistic form of governing down the throats of impressionable viewers using strawmen for all the positions it disagrees with to make their position seem stronger. Fairy tales monarchs are actually more ruthless than we picture them because years of Victorian filtering have made them benign, because Victorians were all about being kid-friendly moral guardians. To govern, one must be ruthless, that is a fact; otherwise they would not last long. If the TCW team wanted to make good political episodes, they should have dropped that idiotic, impractical idealism. They make the Republic look stupid. Frankly, I think George Lucas despises institutionalized government. Only the rebels are good. The Empire is evil and the Republic is stupid. He's fallen into the trap that countless people do. They think that rebellion is subversive, exciting, and therefore it must be good. Once rebels become politicians and statesmen, they are invariably corrupt. No, they are not all corrupt, but they are not going to be idealistic paragons, so get used to it.