TCW Fashion Thread: By Popular(-ish) Demand!

So, why do the complaints about Ahsoka's outfit never finish with "oh, and Aayla looks bloody ridiculous too?"

Wow, Aayla, that one sleeve really kept you warn on Alzoc III. What is it, thermal wear?

 

I think it's because we're all really used to seeing Twi'leks in skimpy outfits. Either that, or it's the Aayla fanboys who are complaining about Ahsoka.

 

Or its because Ahsoka has become the low hanging fruit of this board. How many current threads are thinly veiled Ahsoka bashing threads?

 

I count one, which is, surprise, the general Ahsoka thread. Look, a lot of people don't like her, that's just how it is. Some people are growing to like her more. This place does have an Ahsoka Fanclub, you know.

As for Aayla vs. Ahsoka on the skimpy outfit comparison.. Ahsoka: Padawan, youngling. Aayla: adult, Twi'lek, born in the comic book world. And Aayla is brought up a lot in these arguments.

I think the main reason this thread was made was so people wouldn't be debating the whole skimpy outfit thing in other topics. And there's plenty of other fashion/style stuff to talk about.

 

Sounds right to me.

Yes, yes, and yes. I usually do point to Aayla's comic book origins as the gateway drug for skimpily attired SW *heroes*; previously it was an underworld-y type thing (Slave Leia was a coerced outfit and doesn't count, IU at least).

Again, yep. We got a duchess on the way, people!

 

For people criticising Ahsoka's outfit, I find it silly to justify Aayla's design by saying that its from a comic. Are comics not the home of objectified, over sexualized female characters?

Being a comic design is not an justification, but rather evidence that adolescent lust was at the center of her design. Aayla's design never strikes me as anything but 100% lust (yes, even from George). I like her character, for the same reason I can enjoy an embarrassing Jim Lee-drawn female. But it's still ridiculous.

To add to that point, the only time I've ever been creeped out by Ahsoka's design was here, in a comic:
[image=http://images3.wikia.nocookie.net/starwars/images/5/52/AhsokaSlave.jpg]



In Ahsoka's case, we know that the design was a Filoni drawing with a tank top and a long, pleated skirt. More importantly we know that George deaged her, but also insisted on the tube top, mini-skirt, and action tights. At least in the case of George, who has young daughters, and who has a history of having a good reason for his costume designs, the outfit is explainable with his usual insistence on representing otherworldly, non-Western cultures in the fashion of Star Wars. Specfically, Ahsoka's outfit seems to be an homage to warrior woman, Amazonian style attire. Frankly, she's wearing a lot more than the N'avi.

Say what you will about Ahsoka's design, but until that comic, she has never been put in a situation where she was anything but a simple, innocent young hero. The moment that changes, I will be the first to cry "eww!"

 

Absolutely! I've cited her comic origins as the *reason* for why she looks like she does, but that doesn't mean I call it a justification. In fact, it does (or did at first, at least) bug me as incongruous for a Jedi. When she showed up in AOTC, I called it a draw... a female Twi'lek as a Jedi as opposed to an, erm, object, was a nice change, but the design just didn't fit. It was more in line with typical comic book adolescence. And I totally expect adolescence in SW, just... not the hardbody comic book kind. (And of course I know that not all comics are filled with that kind of ridiculous anatomy, but let's not kid around, most are or have been for decades).

Skimpy attire in SW always used to be in the "underworld"; the overly sexualized female "heroes" always seem to have entered through other media. The worst example EVAR was, of course, TFU Shaak Ti. Video games, comic books... they have their virtues, but they've thrown a lot of un-Star Wars-y T&A at the EU. Case in point, the current comic panel under consideration... jeez, where is that from anyhow?

I think that's all basically true, but in the end I would've preferred Filoni's original design. I like it better aesthetically, but moreover, these discussions would be retconned out of fandom.

 

Yes, it was a completely uncontroversial design (which is arguably a flaw). She looked like a 7th grade Catholic school girl. The only problem I could see would be animating a longer skirt.

I actually think the existing costume strikes a more interesting silhouette. There are still many things about her outfit that I dig, especially the belt, the gauntlet/gloves and the kickass boots. Jedi always have top-notch boots. The dancer tights and skirt remind me of something Kitty Pryde would wear in old X-men comics. The only thing I would change is tube-top. A tank top or fitted tunic would work better.

 

Sometimes this place scares me. The way you guys put it, it sounds like GL is a sexual deviant. But how do you explain changing a fourteen year old in reasonable clothing (Filoni Design), to an over-sexualised eleven year old in a tube top and a mini skirt(GL insistence)?


I realize SW is "exotic", but many of the choices of attire attributed to Lucas seem more like exploitation. The "no underwear in space" rule, and the slave costume, both of which made Carrie Fisher very uncomfortable emotionally, were GL's ideas. Half the Coruscant Lower level was half naked in AOTC. Who wants to be subjected to that?

It is creepy no doubt.

But anyway, lets actually talk about fashion for a moment. Why do we never see anything that might look practical? All these clothing designs have little in the way of utility. The smartest person in the whole series was that little kid on Iego. Coveralls and workboots.
Why do we only see robes and cloaks and armor? Do T-shirts even exist in Star Wars?

 

Darth_Zandalor, there's two sides to this equation. There really is such a thing as exotic Star Wars fashion that does not match Western standards. But there is also the unfortunate pulpy, sci-fi Edgar Rice Burroughs standard of the slutty female companion.

Lucas didn't give Leia European style hair buns or dress Padme like a Asian royalty for icky, lascivious reasons. But he did put Leia in slave garb and have Padme's garments torn in AOTC for icky, lascivious reasons.

I think Ahsoka is more of the former than the later. Again, I pointed out that he deaged her for a reason. Ahsoka is not a romantic lead. She's a gawky prepubsecent who singular character role is "little sister/hero." There is absolutely no evidence that she is supposed to be viewed as a sexual/romantic object. Leia and Padme, at the end of the day, were both reduced to romantic relationship fodder.

In Padme's case especially, the degree of her fashion objectification increased along side the development of her relationship with Anakin. It almost seemed that every time she looked at him longingly, kissed him, or said she loved him, a piece of clothing flew off.

 

I thought I also remembered Carrie Fisher complaining about the uptight outfits for Leia in the first two films and wishing the character would cut loose a little. Not that being enslaved to a giant rubber slug fulfills that desire, but one also should consider that Ms. Fisher was in a considerably altered state of mind during the time in question.

It also enters into the equation that, for a a lot of little boys in the late '70's, ANH Leia was their first "crush", and little boys do a lot of growing in six years. Their interests change. GL doubtless wanted to keep their attention.

Slave Leia was certainly less than progressive; slashed-catsuit Padme would have felt on the rather innocent side of the Edgar Rice Burroughs divide had the Nexu's claws only slashed her, instead of somehow fastidiously and instantaneously resewing her outfit to bare her midriff.

Point of clarification: do we actually *know* GL "de-aged" Ahsoka? What I recall about it is this:

-the character was originally developed to be "Ashla" from AOTC, who would be around 10 at the oldest.
-sketches for this character have now been published and pretty much match up with Ahsoka, age-wise.
-shortly after the official introduction of the character, GL described the show as "like Star Wars but with an 11-year old girl in it" or something like that.
-rather quickly thereafter, the OS clarified Ahsoka's age as being 14.

Did I miss something? Is the development more fully described in the "Art of" book that I really should have by now, but don't?

 

Well... I guess t-shirts actually exist. Here is the proof:

TFU 2 Starkiller

 

Late in the design stage, a sculpted model of Ahsoka by Darren Marshall was deemed by Lucas to look too mature. She was taller, had more developed adult cheekbones, so he asked for her face to be rounded and her height to be shortened. One of the specific quotes was that her longer face looked too much like a Roswell style alien (oval with big eyes). The design shown looks way more like a 17-yr-old Ahsoka.

-Source: Art of Clone Wars

You're right, Filoni's original designs pretty much match the final Ahsoka. My point is that GL consciously decided to deage the character's appearance late into the design stage, which further separated her from being perceived in a sexual/romantic role.

Interpreting something perverse about her appearance is similar to people viewing Watto to be a Jewish/Arab/Italian/pick-an-ethnicity stereotype. It clearly wasn't the intention of the creator, and makes little sense.

 

Makes sense to me, even if it wasn't intentional.

With Ahsoka's outfit I'm guessing the designers thought "Since she's a young girl, let's make something 'girlish' and 'teen', something athletic but kinda cute, and cheap to animate." Superhero stuff may have been on their minds too.

Ahsoka may not be in a romantic/sexy role (at least not in the show), but that doesn't mean she wasn't made with any attractiveness in mind. That's pretty much an issue with designing any character, but especially with females. Padme and Aayla's forced outfits were bad enough, but with the inclusion of Ahsoka and taking into account her age and role, it seems they've gone a little too far.

That said, Ahsoka's outfit really isn't that bad. Oh I still dislike it, but at least they've taken the courtesy of not 'showing off' anything, it's pretty much just her bare stomach and shoulders. If the top was a shirt/tunic I don't think her outfit would be talked about as much as it is.

And, well, fourteen-year-olds do check eachother (and others) out and have boyfriends/girlfriends, and they can look 'sexy', so there can be some appeal made to them, especially now when kids are 'growing up' faster. Maybe Ahsoka is somewhat a reflection of that; I at least think she looks, acts, and sounds older than her age. She seems more like seventeen or eighteen.

 

Exactly. I mean, she's all gawky elbows and long clumsy limbs. She looks like she has a young dancer's physique. About the most tawdry thing about her lipstick and mascara. And isn't that standard, even in a Rebel ice base or while wearing a Boussh mask on Tattooine?

 

Clumsy? She's pretty skinny, sure.. I'll admit I don't like her pointy shoulders, or the big lipstick lips, it's one of the things that makes her look too old. But the color could (most likely) be natural for her. I don't like Aayla's hot-pink lips either (again, they'll likely say it's her natural coloring.) Yeah, just nitpicking the details..

But anyway, even though Ahsoka's outfit doesn't 'reveal' much of anything, it is still a cheap kind of clothing. I mean, if there are two young girls, both wearing short tops, should only the big-bosomy girl be called 'inappropriate' while the scrawny flat-chest one isn't?

And I'm hoping, if they make Ahsoka another outfit, it'll be a different color than the orange-brown-red set. A light blue maybe? I hope they wouldn't do something dark brown or black to make her copy Anakin.

 

Brilliant-- thanks! Somehow I was pretty sure it would be in the "Art of"... I really need that book.

The Roswell effect would've been heightened by the almost-all-black eyes she originally had (consistent with the film Togrutas (pluralization uncertain)). Which has also been complained about here!

 

By clumsy, I mean her build, not her movements.

Xcell, I refuse to accept the premise that the wearer's build is the main frame of reference in judging how appropriate a piece of clothing is. I think intent is a much stronger reason.

I have a best friend who is a very educated, very professional young woman who's family is from the Virgin Islands. She is a proud feminist who comes from a very conservative church background, and does not partake in what would be "traditionally" considered a life of debauchery. She could not be a more innocent or modest person. She also, during the summer, while the rest of us are wearing t-shirts, usually wears nothing but tube tops. Does that make her cheap? She certainly doesn't have much of anything up there to show off.

Is she flaunting herself? Or perhaps is she just drawing from an non-American upbringing that didn't scorn a certain level of revealed flesh? As a close friend, I assure you that her intent is comfort, not attention seeking. Often, she comes to mind when the "sluttiness" of Ahsoka's attire is being discussed.

Easier example: Are the N'avi in Avatar sluts? Did Native Americans look trampy? Or was their intent something else?

 

It has nothing to do with Intent. You are suggesting that Ahsoka wears the outfit because it is her intent to wear it.

That simply doesn't add up. Ahsoka is shown to be a very practical person. Innovative, and sensible. So, entering a combat zone with little more than a strip of fabric and some yoga pants seems very practical doesn't it?

Ahsoka isn't expressing herself through her clothing. If she were, she would most likely been in something a little more protective.

 

Yes, her intent as a wearer is an important factor, but I was referencing the intention of the designer.

As far as wearer intent, story editor Henry Gilroy has already come on this board and pointed out that mobility is the primary in-universe logic behind her attire. Her fighting style is graceful, fast and feline, and her clothes maximize her movements.

A better question is how does Luminara and Barriss dressing like Saudi women qualify as protective or practical? Are there really dangerous mosquitoes out there? Even in the movies, Jedi always strip off excess fabric for lightsaber duels.

 

For a Jedi, yes. It annoys me to see Jedi wearing armor (don't even get me started on those Old Republic bulky armor Jedi). Yoga pants and light clothing is the perfect thing for a warrior monk to wear when he relies on the Force and his superhuman agility to survive combat.

 

But hasn't clone armour proven itself extremely effective? Rex took a sniper shot to the chest and managed to make it out with only a hole and a broken arm from a speeder crash.

If we are talking about Mobility, Barriss and Luminara both seem to be moving extremely fast in their heavy cloaks. Same goes for Jocasta Nu, even if she was being mimicked by a bounty hunter.

 

LawJedi, maybe you misunderstood me? I didn't say Ahsoka is trying to flaunt herself, or that her intent isn't comfort. I don't necessarily buy that they designed her with just that in mind though. I'm talking about the clothing itself. And I'm guessing this friend you're talking about isn't a 14-year-old Jedi youngling in a war.

As for Luminara and Barriss, I've wondered for some time why Jedi in general have these long robes on so much. Not that I'm complaining, because I like the robes, but even with them off during fights there's layer upon layer of tunics underneath. Wouldn't it get hot and sweaty?

 

I'm totally with LawJedi on this.

Xcell, in my opinion it just doesn't make sense to think they sexualized the look of a girl who isn't in a sexual/romantical role and who was consciously changed to look younger.

GL: "Let's make her a little younger, I want her to look more like a kid."

"Okay good, now let's give her a skimpy outfit because in my universe kids need to be sexually attractive."

In other news: we have a fully covered Ahsoka icon now.

<-----

 

You can hardly tell that she's in the suit with that icon though..

It doesn't make sense that they'd sexualize the look of a non-romantic, non-sexual character? It can happen. Look how they made Ahsoka in that comic some posts back.

All I'm saying is a small top and skirt with tights doesn't exactly give the same impression as the usual Jedi tunics and robe. It's very likely some thought of attractiveness was put in her design, because she's a teen girl. That does not mean I think she looks like a slut.. but I think it leans more that way than the other.

And I wish they did a better job making her look younger. I wonder what this 'older' early design looked like.. Art of the Clone Wars sounds interesting.