Clone Wars TCW Has Ruined the Villians

Discussion in 'Star Wars TV' started by Garrett Atkins, Mar 30, 2013.

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  1. 07jonesj Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Aug 16, 2010
    star 4
    Yes, everybody is extremely powerful in CW.

    If by "dreadful and threatening" you mean I either laugh or roll me eyes every time he appears, then yeah. Durge has no motivation really in CW. He's a villain that laughs maniacally. Oh, and you defeated me? Muhahahah! I'm back! Like I said, just like a terrible video game boss. I like the Hunter in Dead Space, but that's a video game. They follow different conventions.

    That would be a good example of CW forgetting what SW is about. It doesn't need to be so over-the-top action to have people interested. Mace Windu would not be able to pull off that feat anywhere but the microseries. It's pretty much canon-breaking, it's that stupid. Hell, no one individual should ever be able to take on an entire army and a vehicle that practically destroys continents. Even the Ones would be pulverized. :p

    As I say, it's a nod to the viewers, more OOU than anything.
  2. Slowpokeking Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Sep 21, 2012
    star 4
    And Dooku still beat Ventress badly.

    He is a Bounty Hunter, he was hired by Dooku like many others, it's enough.

    I think Vader made it clear enough in the movies. Or are you saying the movies aren't canon?
    So the viewers think Palpatine, as a master of manipulation should make so many sinister simile for no purpose beside the possibility to expose himself?
  3. Slowpokeking Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Sep 21, 2012
    star 4
    So what? In SWTOR, a Jedi master took down 100 mandalorians all by himself. Dooku is one of the most powerful force users of his era. And why would he put himself in such danger?
    No, GG's performance in CW got perfect explanation.

    Oh no, the movie, come on.

    If you remember, GG got his chest crushed by Windu, so that could explain his performance in RotS. And don't forget RotS got Anakin's downfall, Sidious reveal himself, Dooku's death, Order 66, GG is just a small part of it.

    But this is the Clone Wars, the major conflict is Republic VS CIS, GG has to be a powerful and threatening villain because he's the commander of CIS.

    Or did you forget

  4. 07jonesj Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Aug 16, 2010
    star 4
    For you. Not for me.

    Hyperbole. The Death Star has more individual power than any Jedi or Sith has ever possessed. No Force-users (except for possibly the Celestials/Ones) could break apart a planet.

    The Force is very situational. OOU, that's to generate tension. Watching a bunch of invincible characters would be fairly dull. IU, you need to reach out to the Force, and I've always been of the belief that it's a mutual relationship - that a Jedi can't just Force Push people whenever they desire, they must reach out to the Force and see if that power is available.


    It's to remind the audience that this guy is Sidious. Subtle, no, but you can't be so dense as to not understand the intent. Besides, like I said, it may not actually happen, just like the flickering holograms in Crisis in Naboo. We see them flickering, but they don't actually flicker IU.
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  5. Slowpokeking Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Sep 21, 2012
    star 4
    So Boba Fett makes no sense?
    Sidious, the Sith Emperor and Nihilus all showed they could devour a planet, Luke could even seize a Black Hole with the power of the Force.

    Why is this necessary? If they are not clear they should watch the movies. We don't see him give us such thing in the movies to tell us his Sidious.
  6. Dark Lord Tarkas Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Apr 29, 2011
    star 4
    @Garrett Atkins as I posted in your other thread when you said the same thing (and you didn't respond):

    Darth Tyranus is better in TCW than in the films. He's great in Gungan Attack and Escape From Kadavo. Anakin is a lot stronger towards the end of TCW than in Ep. II because he's older and has more experience. I also think it was stupid to have him captured by pirates.

    Don't care for General Grievous. He's a robot with spinny arms. I think it would be absurd for him to be able to kill a Jedi Master in a fair fight since he can't use the Force. He's about right in TCW and basically the same as Ep. III.

    Ventress was that outmatched by Yoda that badly because of how powerful Yoda is. Her not staying a generic bad guy was a cool twist.

    I can't make up my mind about Darth Maul until we get the rest of TCW, but even if he wasn't the best thing for the series, he improved the character that had two lines and got canned in Ep. I.

    Savage Opress killed Jedi Council member Adi Gallia and had to be taken out by Darth Sidious himself.

    Never liked the idea of the all the corporate executives being in charge of CIS military operations. I like TCW villains better.

    TCW does make the droid army look pretty bad quite often.

    Magna Guards (like Grievous) being such a match for Jedi was always dumb, Jedi defeating them more easily makes sense.
  7. Slowpokeking Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Sep 21, 2012
    star 4
    I still don't get why people are still saying GG could not beat Jedi because he has no Force, he has his own advantage.
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  8. 07jonesj Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Aug 16, 2010
    star 4
    Who said it didn't make sense? I just mean that a villain is pretty weak if they have no motivation.

    Boba Fett had a rivalry with Solo, and through years of the EU and then the prequel trilogy, he's a very nuanced character.


    Sidious and Luke's examples are from Dark Empire, right?

    Although this is completely subjective, and therefore can't be used as an argument, I despise Dark Empire. It's clear that we take away different things from Star Wars, huh?

    Haven't played TOR so can't speak for the Sith Emperor. The information on him in Revan didn't include that info.

    KOTOR 2 is an example of the video games having more crazy things happen than the movies/show.

    Your examples are good though, and I will partially concede that there are examples of the Force doing more crazy things. Not in the films/show however. Never in G/T-canon.

    You forget that TCW is not just for the adult audience. I see no problem in reminding the audience of Palpatine's true role.

    And yet you complain that Dooku was captured by pirates, saying that Dooku shouldn't have been taken because he had the Force.
    Last edited by 07jonesj, Mar 30, 2013
  9. Slowpokeking Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Sep 21, 2012
    star 4
    He wants money, he dislike Jedi, he loves to kill, that's enough.


    No, Luke's is in the Vong War.

    G canon does not have it simply because it's movies, you can't show too powerful things, especially the OT.
    Why? It would harm his character and his chancellor ego.

    Because Dooku is one of the best Force users of his era, even in CW he beat GG easily.

    And the pirates aren't GG.
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  10. Jordan1Kenobi Host of EUC Battle of... Games

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    Sep 30, 2012
    star 5
    It's gonna be another one of those threads... :rolleyes:
  11. JackG Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Aug 15, 2011
    star 4
    Grievous: yes, character ruined.
    Ventress: disagree, I thought she was done perfectly in the show.
    Dooku: too cookie-cutter cackling villain, not enough charismatic political idealist. I don't know who would think joining the Separatists in the show's world is a good idea.
    Maul & Savage: no comment.
    Gunray: Awesome! Took down a clone commander and had a typically snarky attitude.
  12. Slowpokeking Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Sep 21, 2012
    star 4
    And no Durge, he could have play a big role in the Mandalore arc.
    Last edited by Slowpokeking, Mar 30, 2013
  13. Circular Logic SWTV Interview Host

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    Mar 3, 2013
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    @Slowpokeking, I think you are taking Vader's quote about the Force a bit too literally. It's a hyperbole, and while he has undoubtedly witnessed some overwhelming Force powers from Sidious, I doubt any Force user could ever annihilate a planet as thoroughly as the Death Star. I am aware of the powers of Darth Nihilus and Emperor Vitiate in the EU, but even they merely devoured planets of life (and in Vitiate's case, the Force) rather than completely obliterate them. Also, as @07jonesj pointed out, the videogames like TOR and KOTOR are neither G-canon or T-canon, and Lucas isn't beholden to their portrayal of OP Force abilities.

    Also, I really don't see how Windu's Force Crush on Grievous could have so dramatically reduced his combat prowess between the end of the microseries and RotS. Yes, he probably had to gasp for air at times, but he still retained his skills as a duelist, and possessed the same superhuman reflexes as depicted in Labyrinth of Evil. The Grievous we see in TCW more realistically transitions to the Grievous in RotS. I agree that there are times in TCW where Grievous seems rather pathetic, and I think LOE does a better job of portraying Grievous' power than the microseries (and much of TCW) does, and I preferred LOE's version of the assault on Coruscant over the microseries.
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  14. Slowpokeking Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Sep 21, 2012
    star 4
    In Tales of the Jedi, we see through some devices, the Force could cause stars to go super nova, that's clearly above the Death Star's power. Even C canon require Lucas' permission to do so.

    Force Crush was on his chest, his heart is inside that, it would clearly affect his body. Of course, in RotS he mostly used the wrong tactic, you see in CW he only use his fan style when fighting multiple opponents. In 1V1 it makes little effect and could affect his mobility. And in LoE it was made clear the chip in his brain could help make reasonable counterattack against the enemy during the fight. He was even able to do it against Windu's Vaapad.

    As for RotS and TCW, I already said it, in RotS GG is just a small part, the main focus is not on him. But in the Clone Wars, which the biggest conflict is the Republic VS CIS, GG should be a powerful and threatening villain because he's the commander and general of CIS. Especially Sidious needs to mostly stay behind the stage, even Dooku should not appear too much.
  15. CaptainRex115 Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jan 11, 2013
    star 3

    Last edited by CaptainRex115, Mar 30, 2013
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  16. Seerow SWTV★Manager

    Manager
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    Jun 7, 2011
    star 6
    If TCW ruins the bad guys its because they cast them like cheesy Fox Kids villains. You got your head honcho guy, the minions, some one shot monsters of the day, and then the foot soldiers. Another problem is characters like Dooku were not used as much as they should have been. TCW could have uses many more villain centric episodes to develop them The portrayals themselves are not inconsistent.

    Dooku had the bad guy stamp on AOTC. He's got plenty of guile and even charisma in both. Check out Dooku's portrayal in the last two episodes of the Rako Hardeen arc.

    Grievous the minion. He was described as a coward on screen in ROTS and this like is about repeated in "Grievous Intrigue". He was sadly defeated by Gungan's but actually about killed Ahsoka twice. I think the bigger problem with Grievous is lack of winning battles, you know when leading droids again clones. The lack of seeing him as a strategist.

    Asajj is awesome in TCW. She has a fantastic minion of evil to redemption story. She kicked no shortage of butts in TCW.

    Maul knew that Sidious had come to collect his ass. The way he gets down on his knees is like a child who knows he's going to get beat by an abusive parent. It makes sense to me that Maul would be that afraid of his former master.

    Savage started out a really interesting and tragic character. He is taken away, pumped with darkside to make him a monster. He kills his own brother who he was trying to protect. Then is subjected to Dooku's brutal training all against his will. He became overshadowed for a little while by Maul. However his animal-like tendencies are just part of the spell still over him. When the spell breaks Savage dies with his brother holding his hand. Arguably the saddest death in TCW. His character was not a waste.

    The droids have their moments where they seem stupid, because they are used like putty patrollers. They have their moments where they seem terrifying in episodes like Rookies, Massacre, even Onderon. Its like some batches are better than others.

    Ashoka is 14-16. Ahsoka has trained in lightsaber combat in the Jedi temple for several years. She is gifted with saber combat which is why she carries a second one. Grievous has nearly killed her twice. She would have been dead in their last duel if not for Hondo and Slave I.
    Last edited by Seerow, Mar 31, 2013
  17. CaptainRex115 Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jan 11, 2013
    star 3
    ^to be fair any jedi in the galaxy would have been defeated, being surrounded by an army of 100's of gungans.. Also Grievous dueled evenly/beat kenobi many times in TCW, as like you said almost killing ahsoka. He also did mad well vs ventress.

    So for everything that makes him seem week, theyre's moments that make him seem stronger than what we saw him as in ROTS. I think the one thing that makes him look weak was being beaten by fisto in Lair of grievous, the dude who went down in 2 blows against sidious. Although, arguments could be made that this was the begining of the war, and that grievous was basically much much weaker than he is in future seasons and ROTS
  18. anakinfansince1983 Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Mar 4, 2011
    star 7
    I agree. My first reaction to Savage's existence was "WTF?", although not to the same level as Maul's existence.

    He grew on me though.
  19. K'Kruhk Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Dec 11, 2011
    star 3
    He got taken out by around six Gungans, not 100. No he didn't do 'mad well' against Ventress. He lost.

    Fisto was a Jedi Master and Council Member who has been repeatedly described as one of the best duelists in the Jedi Order. Of course Grievous couldn't do as well against him like he did against Nahdar. Sidious, bar Windu, was the strongest and best duelist in the galaxy at the time, not even Yoda and the combined strength of Maul and Savage could beat him.
  20. TaradosGon Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Feb 28, 2003
    star 4
    -No complaints about Sidious, Asajj or Cad Bane.

    - Grievous: I can handle that he's not the OMG, GREATEST COMBATANT EVA!! with a lightsaber, but I hated the fact that he became an unthreatening villain. It makes no sense story-wise to have him be so incompetent. If the leader of the CIS' military is so inept, why is Palpatine getting greater emergency powers again? It seems like the Jedi have everything under control.

    -Savage was ruined as soon as Maul came into the picture.

    -Maul was used well, but the entire premise of his return never sat well with me.

    -Dooku was too weak. I can accept that Dooku fought Anakin during the Clone Wars, but I cannot accept how well Anakin performed in each fight. Dooku should have mopped the floor with him every time prior to ROTS. Otherwise it just makes Dooku look like an idiot that he's so confident that he's going to take on Obi-Wan AND Anakin, when he struggled with Anakin alone the last time they fought. Also he was too much of a maniacally evil villain. He needed to be more of a Lex Luthor type of villain. Someone that does evil in secret but has the outward appearance of a great person. In TCW it's more like watching a Power Rangers villain.
  21. Seerow SWTV★Manager

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    Jun 7, 2011
    star 6
    In my opinion the main problem with "Shadow Warrior" is how rushed it is which causes alot of plot points to get glossed over or events like the droid army getting shut down to be skipped entirely so its like, "What the hell just happened? How did they do that?". I think the Gungans vs Grievous thing would have been fine if he were surrounded by hundreds of them and they were all trying to jump on him like lions on a buffalo. I can understand Grievous eventually going down then. That's just the fixes for Grievous I'd make to "Shadow Warrior".

    Ya know, I sometimes make fun of Grievous cuz of TCW. However if I were magically transported into the TV I'm sure I'd feel much differently. He doesn't do that badly against Fisto, IMO. Fisto retreats. Obi-wan beats him with the same force push move every time. Not flat out with saber combat. Grievous put him on the ground in "Grievous Intrigue". I think he did okay against Ventress. Ventress decided to withdraw. That episode was one of Grievous's few victories which was cool but unfortunately I don't think "Massacre" was real relevent to the Clone Wars. Talzin is a different faction.
    Last edited by Seerow, Mar 31, 2013
  22. WampaSwamp Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Aug 27, 2011
    star 1
    I was under the impression that whatever happened in the movie takes precedence over the novel. If it's not outright stated in their lines of dialogue, then the retcon is 'legit' so to speak.
  23. Slowpokeking Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Sep 21, 2012
    star 4
    TCW Dooku sucks compare to CW.

    Again, calling him a coward is just personal opinion, RotS GG is just a small part, but in TCW he should be one of the most important villains, he should be threatening.
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  24. 07jonesj Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Aug 16, 2010
    star 4
    Whereas I disagree Grievous should be able to take on Jedi easily, I do think the Jedi should fear him. Hearing that Grievous is in charge of a particular campaign should scare the crap out of the people involved.

    I really wish they'd made him a villain who was just a military mastermind, outsmarting the Jedi at every turn. Oh, and if he captures Jedi, he doesn't kill them quickly. That would be the Grievous I'd be scared of.
    Last edited by 07jonesj, Mar 31, 2013
  25. Slowpokeking Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Sep 21, 2012
    star 4
    I don't think TCW could show military strategies well enough, he needs to get more kills on Jedi.
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